Question for anyone who follows Sunland regularly

[covelj70]

Last year the Sunland Derby was an ultra key race with a bunch of the runners going onto to big things in their next (few) races including obviously Mine that Bird.

Question.  Is there anything particular to Sunland that is giving horse a edge in their next races (i.e. a deep track that horses get alot of fitness out of running on) or was this situation with the Sunland Derby last year just an anamoly?

Thanks

[P-Dub]

I\'ve heard people talk about the altitude there, don\'t know what it is exactly but perhaps they get a conditioning edge. Just a thought...

[mjellish]

Altitude is about 3800 feet.  I\'ve read a couple of studies of the affects of altitude on horses, but they have all been done at about 10,000-13,000 feet, or have been done comparing horses to mules rather than horses to horses.  Not sure how much 3800 feet would make a difference, but I imagine it would make some difference.  The difference in air pressure actually makes it easier for horses to run, but the lower oxygen levels negate this at longer distances.  So my understanding is that at shorter distances horses can actually run faster at higher altitudes.  At longer distances they tend to slow down because their stamina suffers.

There are some studies that show that horses don\'t benefit by living and training at high altitude.  They do benefit, however, by living at high altitudes and training and running at sea level.  Also, my understanding is that horses that are unaclimated to high altitudes can suffer performance deterioration.  Most studies confirm that altitude seems to affect horse performance very similarily to human athletic performance.

[mjellish]

One more thing.  If you buy into this, a horse like Endorsement moves up, and Conveyance gets a bit of an excuse for getting gassed.  Although I still think Conveyance has distance limitations anyway.  His sire, Indian Charlie, is known more for getting sprinters and milers, although Fleet Indian was pretty good up to 1 1/8th.  The female side is also dominated with sprinters and milers.

[Beginner]

Not to get WAY off track (no pun intended), but the main training facility of the United States Olympic Committee is located in Colorado Springs, a little over a mile above sea level and if anyone has been to the visitors locker room at INVESCO field, there is a giant reminder of the fact that you are at a mile high and the air is thinner.  I presume those are not accidents.  Obviously the horses don\'t know they\'re 3,800 feet ASL, but the studies you summarize certainly make sense.  Thanks for the info and the analysis on Endorsement and Conveyance.

[magicnight]

Salt Lake City is at 4200 feet and - from what I\'ve read - is a tough place for NBA teams to visit. For whatever that is worth.

[SoCalMan2]

I seem to recall at some point in the last 12-18 months, some posting on here (or maybe it was an article in the DRF) about some sort of machine that was being created so that horses could simulate being at high altitude.  I think it was some sort of a chamber the horse goes into for like 20 minutes a day or something like that.  They never leave there home surroundings, just go in the chamber.  That is supposed to have some positive effect akin to high altitude training etc.  I have no idea if this is true or correct -- I just seem to recall reading about the device.  If I wasn\'t feeling so lazy today, I would try some searches to find the old postings or articles.

[jeffs]

Its called a Hyperbaric chamber, a few trainer\'s have them on their  farms and it works!

[richiebee]

Covel--

If Mine That Bird doesn\'t win a flukey Derby in 2009, are we even having this
conversation?

Surprised at the amount of talk about Eskendreya. His qualifications and
bloodline are enviable. What, you need a fancy set of numbers to see that
this guy has a very good chance to get TAP off his Derby schnied?

I\'d rather be discussing who will be the next Giacomo (advanced 5 points on the
TG scale to score in 2005) or MTB (made a similar advance in 2009).

I know Covel that as a racing fan/horse owner, it is important that Racing have
its Rachels, its Zenyattas, maybe finally a Triple Crown winner.

To a hobbyist such as myself, I\'d rather have 3 chaotic TC races. For me and many
others, this is the only opportunity we will have to bet into a 20 runner field.

[sekrah]

I was just talking about Endorsement in the other thread.  Him nearly breaking the track record at 1 1/8 is extremely impressive, especially considering he hasn\'t been training there to get acclimated to the altitude.

Unless something unforeseen changes, At this point he\'s my MTB-type key I\'ll be using this year.   The only one of the Derby contenders that have done the first 6f in 1:12 or faster and come home the final furlong in under 13 and did it at a very unlikely track.

I did track and field in high school and our school was about 600 feet above seal-level and we did alot of our preseason training in the nearby mountains that along a trail that was about 1400-1500 ft and you could definently feel the difference when you first got there.   If the effects on humans are that much, then they almost certaintly must have some sort of affect on other mammals. Sunland Park is sitting at around 3700.  Chuchill Downs 455.   Other parks:  Prairie Meadows 975, Keeneland 950, Hawthorne 600, Oaklawn 575, Santa Anita 475, Hollywood 125, Belmont 75, Aqueduct 10, Gulfstream 5, Fair Grounds 0..  Probably not much of a difference from PRM and KEE to CD, but from PRM/KEE to GP/FG you might see a bump in distance races.

Endorsement ironically trains at Fair Grounds which makes his Sunland Derby win that much more impressive in my eyes.   This horse MUST have outrageous lung capacity to ship in, run sharp fractions, and finish strong, nearly breaking the track record for 1 1/8m.

I\'ve gone through old forms of the Derby and I cannot find another instance, besides MTB, that actually trained at Sunland.   Hell, I can only find one other horse in the past 8 years that had a prep at Sunland, that was Sort It Out in 2005.  I can\'t find any Sunlanders in the Preakness or Belmont PPs over the past 6-8 years.

If Endorsement wins this race, Sunland Park may become a new home a new Gold Rush among horseman and the cat will be out of the bag on this secret.  I only wish they would of kept him there to train full-time

[sekrah]

The answer to your question is No generally.. But I\'ve had theories and thoughts about horse racing and altitude for years, MTB kind of put my wheels in motion.

There\'s no other examples of horses training at Sunland and coming into the Triple Crown races.   Endorsement doesn\'t train there either so that wouldn\'t qualify either.   My thoughts on Endorsement are that his effort at that 3700 ft altitude is worth another 2-3 lengths (wild-guess) vs sea-level at a long-distance.

I have heard from Sunland Park bettors who do very well and they steadfastly REFUSE to bet shippers running their first career race there.   They were extremely impressed with Endorsement\'s effort.

Endorsement is lightly raced and developing very rapidly right now, his ceiling is hard to project but has a dream pedigree and is looks to love the extra distance and at a likely 20-1, I\'ll very happily make him my key come May 1st.



richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Covel--
>
> If Mine That Bird doesn\'t win a flukey Derby in
> 2009, are we even having this
> conversation?
>
> Surprised at the amount of talk about Eskendreya.
> His qualifications and
> bloodline are enviable. What, you need a fancy set
> of numbers to see that
> this guy has a very good chance to get TAP off his
> Derby schnied?
>
> I\'d rather be discussing who will be the next
> Giacomo (advanced 5 points on the
> TG scale to score in 2005) or MTB (made a similar
> advance in 2009).
>
> I know Covel that as a racing fan/horse owner, it
> is important that Racing have
> its Rachels, its Zenyattas, maybe finally a Triple
> Crown winner.
>
> To a hobbyist such as myself, I\'d rather have 3
> chaotic TC races. For me and many
> others, this is the only opportunity we will have
> to bet into a 20 runner field.