Doc Outs Dutrow Live today on ATRAB link below

[cubfan0316]

sighthound, your missing the point.its the trainers that claim horses and 3 days later they run new tops by 5 points. what the heck can they do in 3 days? tricky dick did this alot.

[richiebee]

Cub:

I think that Sight gets the point, but I think what he objects to is some of
the (relatively) honest trainers getting thrown in with the known cheaters.

Tricky is a tough case because he is utilizing many of the methods which Sight
would characterize as \"good animal husbandry\" IN ADDITION TO taking advantage
of the rules of racing wherever he can (RD has served nearly 7 years of
suspension time since he began training in the early 90s, 5 of them for
personal issues).

But its all good because Tricky will come back from his latest suspension and
NYRA will not take any stalls away and all of his major sponsors like Goldfarb
and IEAH will stick by him. And it only gets better-- I am noticing for the
first time that Eugene Melnyk has horses with Tricky. The same Melnyk whose
Biovail Corp has been under close scrutiny by the SEC for the last 2 or so
years.

Birds of a feather?

And the man they call Tricky is 3/8 on Racing\'s biggest day.

Allday was full of bluster on that radio show. Is he clean enough himself to
come forward with specific allegations? Would this somehow be prevented by any
Vet/ Client confidentiality issues?

All of this intrigue and it is only 53 hours or so until post time at Aq
Wednesday. The feature at AQ on Wednesday is the Volponi, a name which should
remind us that with or without drugs, people will always be looking for a way
to manipulate the game to their own benefit. Not that there\'s anything wrong
with that...

[fkach]

I am not expressing an opinion on Pletcher here, but MANY horses peak a few races into a new season just like LR did this year and then wear out by year end.  If you knew ANYTHING about LR\'s races last year and were willing to be intellectually honest about this you would also know that LR ran a few races last year that were much better than they looked based on final time figures alone. He was used hard early and was rank on a couple of occasions. Once you understand his real level of performance as a still developing spring 3YO, a huge race as a 4YO would stop looking like a total shock. Lots of horses get really sharp for a race or two and then start heading south again.

Personally, I can\'t see how you can criticize his loss to Curlin if that\'s what you were doing. He lost in the last few strides to a rapidly improving 3YO that just crushed the BC Classic off that performance. In addition, just watch the race. He wasn\'t exactly rank that day, but he was certainly a lot less relaxed than he had been in his better starts this year. Perhaps the problem that Pletcher corrected was beginning to resurface. Plus, it was a 10F race, a distance that MANY people suspected would not be his best to begin with.

Barry hasn\'t weighed in on what happen in the Classic (and I didn\'t read any specific comments from Pletcher), but he would not be the only horse on BC day to not like that sea of slop. Nor would it be a shock if he simply wore down after a peaking for a few races at Saratoga. It happens all the time. I even brought that possibility up to Barry in a comment after the Saratoga races suggesting that the horse may have peaked too soon.

Is my analysis 100% correct?

It doesn\'t matter.

It\'s reasonable, logical, based on fact, and certainly very possible.

The fact that you won\'t even consider things like this is the PROBLEM with your very biased accusations. You start with a conclusion and then build your case without considering other logical possibilities.

[sighthound]

cubfan0316 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sighthound, your missing the point.its the
> trainers that claim horses and 3 days later they
> run new tops by 5 points. what the heck can they
> do in 3 days? tricky dick did this alot.

Cub, we\'re not talking about those guys, we\'re talking about Pletcher.  Accusing Pletcher of using illegal drugs based upon handicapping figure interpretation, rather than (and in spite of) his horses testing results.

Running horses right back is an old trainer trick, and works quite frequently on it\'s own merits.  Done more in England and Australia than the US.

I am sure there are indeed guys who are claiming, then injecting sore horses with illegal stuff - such as using cobra venom as a nerve block - to allow some to run right back.

[spook_express]

For those that argue good training and vetting accounts for many of these move-ups mentioned and that we can\'t assume illegal drugs are prevalent in horse racing--I don\'t agree.  Big picture, we now KNOW other \"sports\" are riddled with drug/enhancing agent issues.  This \"sport\" involves horses who can\'t talk and whose underpinnings revolve around gambling, large purses, breeding fees, etc.  Suspicion and testing should be double or triple what it is compared to other \"sports\", thats just common sense. If thier issues are bad, I suspect racings are much worse.  What is more troublesome is pinning down specific names.  But it seems trainer patterns may help indicate suspicious trends, and as JB has called for, Vet disclosures would help even more.  When the trainer and vet patterns overlay each other, you probably have something (other than $$ for sore hoofs).

Boy, that was interesting hearing Allday go after Dicky though.  That is some bad blood.  Where is that one big whistle-blower that brings down some really big names with more than just venom?

[sighthound]

>> But it seems trainer patterns may help indicate suspicious trends, and as JB >> has called for, Vet disclosures would help even more.

I\'m sorry, but vet disclosures won\'t help at all.  Most barns use multiple veterinarians.

[TGJB]

There are ways to deal with the multiple vet question though I haven\'t got time to get into them now.

[sighthound]

Good, because I know you don\'t want my professional reputation to suffer unnecessarily by false accusation, Jerry.

I hope you guys are listening to At The Races, where the discussion continues today:

www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com  Click on \"listen live\".  4-7pm eastern M-F

[stillinger]

Jerry,
You are a magnificent HOST.

When you get a minute, would you have some one ask Osama bin Laden to call my family phone, and leave me an indication as to whether or not I can persuade him to listen to me for 3 minutes, max. I would appreciate that - be in the City in January, w/mymother, visiting old friends.

OUr families came together, and what are the odds?

you make figures,
sos you tell me.

And then start rounding up my 25MM in cash. I would pay that just to talk to him for 2 minutes.

Thank you, sir,
You have been very indulgent,
and I won\'t forget.

skip Stillinger

PS: I might have to borrow the money,
but someone might be interested in this BOOKMAKER.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Richiebbb wrote:

The feature at AQ on Wednesday is the Volponi, a name which should
remind us that with or without drugs, people will always be looking for a way
to manipulate the game to their own benefit. Not that there\'s anything wrong
with that...

Richie, are you implying my favorite Breeders Cup Classic winner was manipulated? I thought Mr. Johnson was the classiest of class acts.

[sighthound]

I would highly recommend that everyone who has read this thread go listen to Tuesday, Nov. 6  \"At The Races\", second hour, halfway through, with a return visit from Dr. Steven Allday.

Chuckles, you will especially enjoy it.

[richiebee]

Chuckponi:

I was not implying that there was anything crooked about Volponi\'s romp in the
BC at AP, but I seem to recall there were some irregularities with the Pick 6
that year.

\"The Big Horse\", a biography of PG by crime writer Joe McGinniss (\"Fatal
Vision\",\"Blind Faith\" and the recently released \"Never Enough\") is a very good
read, starting with PG back when he had a small stable at the then mobbed up
Chicago tracks and ending with Volponi\'s BC victory. A must read for you,
Chuckpasser, if you can take time away from trying to connect TAP\'s poor
performances on racing\'s biggest days with the collapse of the subprime mortgage
market.

[cubfan0316]

when will it end? who needs to step up?

[girly]

I don\'t feel qualified to speculate on this subject, but Tues. hour 2 was very interesting.

[P.Eckhart]

Can\'t wait to find out what twist the conspiracy will take once it\'s sunk in that Allday has been Mott\'s vet since Pletcher. Actually that\'s a lie. I can wait.