Thoro Golf Ask the Experts

[richiebee]

Has anyone played the White Clay Creek course, which is adjacent to Delaware
Park? Looks very good on the website, but then again so do alot of the
NYC cow pasture munis.

On the breakdowns, I think too many horses are taken to the track under tack
5 and 6 days a week and it is not necessary--too much awkward pounding under
heavy (and heavy handed) exercise riders. Once horses get fit, \"tease em and
breeze em\".

Belmont Park had at least four equine fatalities in the first week of the Fall
meet; I do not think there was a dip in the handle because the heavy gamblers
accept breakdowns as part of the game, tragic and heart wrenching as they are.

A bigger problem than losing a few fans and a few hundred thousand in handle
is the possibility that the animal rights folks, who recently came out
vociferously following the unfortunate death of a carriage horse on the streets
of Manhattan,will eventually turn their attention to thoroughbred racing.

[stillinger]

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> On the breakdowns, I think too many horses are
> taken to the track under tack
> 5 and 6 days a week and it is not necessary--too
> much awkward pounding under
> heavy (and heavy handed) exercise riders. Once
> horses get fit, \"tease em and
> breeze em\".

This seems at first glance obvious, and always has. You used to be able to claim muscle bound horses from guys that overtrained; walk \'em, and win. Do you think the contstant pounding is due to ignorance, or that fact that they are working on stuff that \"can\'t be let down\". In English, since I use replacement hormones, if I stop exercising, I get a little crazy. er. There could be reasons they need the drilling that I don\'t understand, but I think it\'s important to remember that not every one is Allen Jerkens/Mike Hushion, with time to \"listen\", One to One. Mott still gives that impression, but I was always soft on him, since Taylor\'s Special.
Actually, Gasper had this part right maybe - then he got passed by with \"smarter\" trainers. He didn\'t over work them, is all I\'m saying.
 
> A bigger problem than losing a few fans and a few
> hundred thousand in handle
> is the possibility that the animal rights folks,
> who recently came out
> vociferously following the unfortunate death of a
> carriage horse on the streets
> of Manhattan,will eventually turn their attention
> to thoroughbred racing.

I have to admit, this was my defninte SECOND reaction to Barbaro
breaking down in the LIMELIGHT.

Must be nice to have as a MAJOR concern, GOLF. Sounds like a life.

[docicu3]

Rich

Depending on what level golfer you are White Creek can be very enjoyable or a complete misery.

The layout requires many skillful hazard avoidance shots with generous water or your gonna spend a whole ton of balls.  I like the place but it\'s not always the easiest track to get on, and play can be slow especially on the weekends when the average age of golfer seems to be in the 70\'s.

It\'s kept in excellent condition though the greens are not exceptionally fast.

Overall I would give the place an 8-8.5 out of 10 with a score that reflects the fact that it is essentially flat.

[TGJB]

Doc-- more importantly, what do you make of the announced testing setup for the BC?

[richiebee]

Doc:

Thank you.

[docicu3]

In all honesty when I read the announced testing procedure for the BC I was left with the same feeling I have about synthetic race tracks.

The racing community in response to the outrage associated with high profile breakdowns of recent years wants to be seen as taking action to lessen the impact of horses tragically being euthanized prior to having racing careers of significant length.  Agreement for a desire to alter these outcomes is universal with the cause of the problem still very much debatable.

The testing proposed is a response to all of the negative publicity associated with trainers who benefit from cheating and specifically the racing community having to deal with an eclipse award for trainer of the year being given to a trainer serving a suspension for cheating.

The racing community has no real solution to lessen the number of tragic breakdowns so now we have poly/cushion/tapeta track answers.  The New Jersey Racing Commission has no idea how to catch trainers who have the edge so we have new testing for Epogen and TCO2 to give the appearance that these measures will insure a fair and equitable playing field on October 27-28.

The problem is that this testing is akin to treating all pneumonia with penicillin.  It may work for the majority of simple pathogens but the few deviant resistant organisms left scoff at such measures as their defense is far more complicated than this simplistic solution can battle with.

Cushion/poly/tapeta track doesn\'t solve the problem of genetic selection for fragile champions and their offspring due to greed and premature retirement.

Epo and TCO2 levels won\'t insure a fair championship series but it does give the appearance that the New Jersey Racing Committee and BC management care about this issue.

If I were BC king which of course I am not, I would have every Vet Trainer and Owner who wanted to enter a horse in the championships sign an agreement that says if your horse is found to have cheated all three of you are banned for life from racing. We are going to freeze samples for all eternity so that as scientific method catches up with deception we are always able to punish a wrong.

I have no doubt that dishonest connections are utilizing the current human science to produce undetectable advantages.  Sooner or later discoverable evidence will become available and known.  The criminal with new toys may be one step ahead of the law but eventually the evidence speaks for itself.

Enough from this windbag sorry to drone on so long TGJB.....gotta go to work!!

[marcus]

Nice Going Doc and Congratulations Everyone  , You\'ve just  hit a Hole-in-One  ...

[richiebee]

Doc:

Thank you again.

One observation: Hopefully Racing will evolve to the point where the \"enhanced\"
runner never even gets to the gate. I know this would take a great deal of
dedication on the part of an industry which has shown only a halfhearted effort
towards stopping and punishing cheaters who have likely honed their test
beating skills with wicked precision.

On Racing\'s biggest day, $20 million dollars in purse money will be awarded.
One day, maybe not this year, a horse will come back positive and part of that
purse money, weeks after the fact, will be redistributed.

In 2004 at Lone Star, all sources handle on the 8 Breeder\'s Cup races was nearly
$110 million dollars. Since no one has figured out a way to redistribute pari-
mutuel pools in the case of a medication DQ, it appears that the only way to
truly level the playing field is to prevent the runner with that \"something
extra\" from ever setting foot in the gate.

Is it fair to say that Racing\'s current testing regime--geared towards catching
cheaters weeks/months/years after the fact (ie Biancobra horses running dirty
in May, not disclosed until August)--actually protects owners/trainers who run
clean and get elevated placings after a dirty runner is DQ\'d? Where is the
protection for handicappers/gamblers?

  \"But if you look for truthfulness/You just might as well be blind\"

[rosewood]

Richibee,

Your preaching to the choir again buddy............

1) Why hasn\'t Briancobra been exported ?
2) Why are they closing the horse slaughter plants instead of putting everyone of these brittle legged unfit animals that are being bred and sold for millions on a rail ?
3) As Doc proposes, why are these cheating bastards {owners,vets and trainers} not banned from a track for life?
4) Why does Yum Brands, Dodge etc, etc, spend millions advertising crooked, fixed or what ever name you want to call it races?

As long as you have the politicians in bed with the largest owners, associations and boards; who do you think has a set of balls big enough to do a damn thing about it.

The simple fact is that except for the retarded like us who still try to win a bet on a good horse race; it has become as I think you said earlier, that all you got to figure out is which one of those three trainers is juicing today and which one isn\'t !

Until this is brought out like the old \"Black Sox Scandal\" and/ or as you have stated the animal rights people find out the public doesn\'t have a clue whats going on.


Luck and regards

[richiebee]

rosewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richibee,
>
> Your preaching to the choir again
> buddy............

  Any preacher will tell you there is always someone asleep in the choir.
 
> 1) Why hasn\'t Biancobra been exported ?

  I guess the short answer is \"The Constitution.\" The smart ass question
  as answer is \"Why did we let him in?\"

> 2) Why are they closing the horse slaughter plants
> instead of putting everyone of these brittle
> legged unfit animals that are being bred and sold
> for millions on a rail ?

  America and France each have an affinity with the equine. In France and  
  other nations the equine is eaten at respectable tables. In India they
  have starving people yet seem to bow at passing cattle  

> 3) As Doc proposes, why are these cheating
> bastards {owners,vets and trainers} not banned
> from a track for life?
>
  Absolutely no offense meant here Rose, but I am in New York City, where
  bona fide murderers are returned to the streets in the same decade that
  they committed their crimes. What really has to happen to the serious
  (multiple violation) outfits is that their stall allotment suddenly starts
  to shrink; hopefully other racing venues play along. This is how I know
  Racing doesn\'t really care; the cheaters (multiple positives) always get
  their stalls in the end. This is because you have owners who will always
  align with the cheaters for the high win percentage.

 4) Why does Yum Brands, Dodge etc, etc, spend
> millions advertising crooked, fixed or what ever
> name you want to call it races?
>
  Because they have lots of money left over after sponsoring the honest sports?
  Baseball (Canseco may have been a visionary), Football (most successful coach
  caught cheating, New York Post put asterisk next to Patriots\' name in stand-
  ings) and Basketball (part of the problem is all that talk about the Ref and
  his gambling buddies and none of these guys seemed to be horseplayers).

 
> Until this is brought out like the old \"Black Sox
> Scandal\" and/ or as you have stated the animal
> rights people find out the public doesn\'t have a
> clue whats going on.

  People know that there are drugs and other forms of cheating in Racing.
  But these \"people\" for the most part are gambling in a recreational way,
  the way I do. Most of these people would not want abstain from a pursuit
  they enjoy in hopes of purifying the sport. For the people who make a
  living in the sport, they are in no position to stop \"working\" so they
  will continue to play and support the game in its current state.

>
> Luck and regards

[rosewood]

Richibee,

I swear I won\'t post again in frustrated mind set. You are absolutely correct on all counts.

As always, your post are right on.  Wish that I could explain myself in the manner you do.

Hopefully you realize that I was not responding to you in a personal or negative manner.

[richiebee]

Rosewood:

I think there is a lot of frustration in Racing now for both horseplayers
and horse racing fans. I\'m both so I am very frustrated.