A Tail of Two Meets and Question for TGJB

[docicu3]

Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Appreciate the attempt to speak in laymans terms.
> I have to run but will review your post carefully
> when I return.
>
> If the primary focus is acid, we still have the
> Tour de France oxygen implications.

You are lumping together two diffferent exercise conditions which have entirely different acid-base problems.  (too little or too much acid)
You cant discuss sprinting the 100 yard dash and running the marathon (26.2) miles as if they are the same

 We also know the broncho dialators involve increasing oxygen.

Actually no....bronchodilators allow you to better ventilate or move more carbon dioxide per breath  said another way, lower your carbon dioxide in your blood level.  They work by relaxing the smooth muscle IN the lungs or they make the airways , or pipes bigger thus they lower pulmonary Resistance or the ability for gas (carbon dioxide) to move out of the lungs. We have just described the approach to how we treat asthma acutely.  The asthmatic has no trouble getting air in but a whole heap of trouble getting air out thus their lungs are still somewhat inflated at the end of a breath allowing no room for the next breath.

The oxygen gains have to do with lowering the CO2 level for the most part.  There is also this other concept about the affinity for oxygen to bind on a red cell that you really don\'t want me to get into less both of our heads explode!!  
>
> Regarding the acid focus, I thought the following
> article might pique some curiosity. It says that
> lactic acid really isn\'t lactic acid at all. In
> fact it seems to support Stillinger and Oscar B.:

There are two types of lactic acidosis or ways to accumulate lactate.  One does have to do with a low oxygen environment the other is a problem utilizing the normal oxygen available.

They both have in common the concept of anaerobic metabolism(without ENOUGH oxygen) vs aerobic(with ENOUGH oxygen).  In order to explain why this is important we\'d have to discuss the \"Krebs cycle\" or the scientific basis for why with breaking down glucose in one way (aerobic) gives you 36 little energy units to use in exercise VS the other way (anaerobic) where your starting with the same fuel as above and getting only a fraction of those energy units to use.

Although we are using the terms aerobic (with oxygen) and anaerobic (without oxygen) we are really talking about fuel or ATP energy units which have nothing to do with oxygen.

I realize this is insanely confusing but thats why the language is so precise and thus over a lot of heads.  The words indicate very discrete scientific meaning that takes years of education and practice to get used to.  It is not talking down to anyone but alot like dead money at the breeders cup each year.

 People will poor money into pools based on birthdays and colors and random numbers most of has very minimal chance of success but doesn\'t understand that making money at horse handicapping requires an education that takes years of experience(sorry Mr Brown you may be able to teach the TGH approach in a small amount of time but betting sucessfully takes years IMO)

If the dead money player were to ask the handicapper to explain how and what they bet the frustration that would ensue as the two realize they don\'t speak the same language and thus can\'t communicate is very similar to trying to explain these concepts and not use the words intended to communicate.

Oxygenation and ventilation are very different though related. The science of the explanation is very complex.  The same goes for acid-base physiology (the basis for explaining Lactic Acid accumulation) or the simple act of reading an arterial blood gas,notice I didn\'t say venous bicarbonate level as is currently followed by the bodies that govern racing for horses that win in some juristictions and Mr Brown is working so hard to make public in the DRF or TGH sheets.

By following venous bicarbonate levels your not looking for the cheaters in the best place to catch them (the arterial or supply side) so it is very likely to cheat using the newer generation medications and not be caught by conventional testing.  That is likely one of the reasons some of the super trainers remain elusive.  Your trying to catch them robbing you coming out of the bank while they clean you out through a computer theft.

Ahh enough for one morning I gotta go make a living....    

>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition
> /16run.html?ex=1305432000&en=2778e99d7eab85a6&ei=5
> 090
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually the terminology provides precise
> meaning
> > and is really not all that complex.  If you
> want
> > to talk the subject matter a basic
> understanding
> > of the verbage is necessary.
> >
> > Racing is no different as words like gelding
> and
> > mud caulks require a little work to understand.
> >
> > The words in medicine like the concepts are
> > actually pretty simplistic but precise.  
> > Separating oxygen delivery (or how much oxygen
> is
> > available for the tissues of a horse to use) as
> an
> > alleged performance enhancement from the issues
> of
> > acidemia (or too much hydrogen(lactic acid) in
> the
> > blood which the horses and human\'s brain(stem)
> > translates as \"breathe faster and deeper\" thus
> > impacting the horses ability to run as you can
> > only breathe so fast (ventilatory maximum which
> > when exceeded causes that hydrogen to
> accumulate
> > in the blood and tissues which is translated to
> > the horses brain as \"stop running and you\'ll
> need
> > to breathe less\"
> >
> > Thus there are two places to change the
> equation
> > of performance leaving one with the only
> relevant
> > question.  Do I need more oxygen or less acid as
> a
> > means to improve performance and run faster
> > longer.  Answer: Less Acid(which is another way
> of
> > saying more alkaline or \"milk shake like\"
> >
> > The experimental meds I am talking about work
> on
> > the \"remove the acid faster\" or \"stop the acid
> > from accumulating\" part of the equation. Oxygen
> is
> > manipulatable to some extent but is not where
> > gains can be seen.   Stop the horse from
> > accumulating acid in his blood so he doesn\'t
> have
> > to waste energy breathing fast to stop the pain
> > and you allow the horse to deliver what it is
> > capable of for a longer period.  It doesn\'t
> make
> > it run faster but use his God given talent
> > longer.
> >
> > This whole discussion can be summarized as
> aerobic
> > VS anaerobic.  Nothing more complex than that.
> > With oxygen and without excess acid!!!
> >
> > This sounds like Mr Rodger\'s visits horse
> racing
> > but I am trying people, and it reads to me like
> I
> > am not doing the subject justice.

[fkach]

It seems to me we need more people with your expertise working in the industry so it has a better idea of what to look for. It\'s not really necessary for the bettors to understand the science of cheating and avoiding detection.

As someone concerned with the well being of the horses and a level playing field for trainers and owners (notice I didn\'t say bettors), I want someone to catch the cheaters until the industry comes to its senses and implements rules more like those in the rest of the world and enforces them in ways that make it uneconomical to cheat to begin with.

[davidrex]

What you said re-enforces my understanding from  someones\' post months ago.
That person stated that the horse\'s courage was extended due to lack of fatigue,or feeling the effects coming on.
Of course when MTMC2returns,we\'ll have a clearer picture!

[stillinger]

Doc,

Thanks for your time - we all get that you guys are busy!

Question:
 
Jerry recently said something about the addition of fat to the diet of an equine individual. Last year, after being crossed off for dead of old age at 60, due to \"lifestyle challenges\" - war -mania -horses - coffee - cigarettes for decades, etc., I traded the then veggie diet I had been prescribed in order to increase my panreatic enzyme among other things, for a high fat, high protien, amino acid diet with \"fat burning\" exercise daily. At that point, I got lactic acid burn just by standing up.

The first reaction was I couldn\'t get enough air to keep up the heart rate, but I pushed through it. Second, I got so acidic I thought my kidneys would fail. I backed off a little, kept the diet, exercise, and feel great only months after will signing. You address metabolizing glucose but no mention of what impact or significance it might have in terms of stamina to enhance the metabolism of fat in equines. Is that what is happening in jogs? Gallops? Two minute licks?

Please be as \"professionally precise\" as you need to be - I can figure out what the words mean if you dump \'em in here. I should plug Frank Schallenberger, Nevada Center, Carson City, an orthomolecular doc for being around to ask dumb questions - like, don\'t the beasties need a little fat and long slow gallops ala the classic trainers that we all respect, give them, in lieu of the turn the cash around, steroids instead of rest, that many receive? I admit to a little testoserone use personally (he said I have enough growth hormone, but if he said to, I would take it), so I ain\'t pointing fingers, just askin\' the doctor?

skip

[Boscar Obarra]

Very interesting stuff from docicu3, especially when posed in \'english\'

 At the time Oscar Barrera was in full stride, my observation was that the horses did not run \'faster\' they simply did not \'tire\' as expected at the usual points in the race.  Simple as that, and in line with the discussion.

 Would also explain why SPEED was desired, as a closer would not benefit as much from the extra \'stay\' that was being induced.

 None of this is new, but apparently the methods are increasingly sophisticated.

[docicu3]

You would need a million dollar grant to answer that one my friend.  Perhaps one day we will revisit this but you ask so many questions only Mr Wizard could handle this one.

[sighthound]

> Jerry recently said something about the addition
> of fat to the diet of an equine individual.

> You address metabolizing glucose but no
> mention of what impact or significance it might
> have in terms of stamina to enhance the metabolism
> of fat in equines.

A performance-horse diet of up to about 10% fat (after the animal has been metabolically adapted to the higher-fat diet, over about 6 weeks or so) has been shown to slightly diminish glycogen depletion, moderately reduce plasma lactate accumulation, and therefor slightly to moderately delay the onset of fatigue.

Can you give a horse a bunch of fat to suddenly get increased performance?  No.  

Can you feed a performance horse optimally for his discipline?   Yes, and it should be done.

[stillinger]

sighthound Wrote:
> A performance-horse diet of up to about 10% fat
> (after the animal has been metabolically adapted
> to the higher-fat diet, over about 6 weeks or so)
> has been shown to slightly diminish glycogen
> depletion, moderately reduce plasma lactate
> accumulation, and therefor slightly to moderately
> delay the onset of fatigue.
>
> Can you give a horse a bunch of fat to suddenly
> get increased performance?  No.  
>
> Can you feed a performance horse optimally for his
> discipline?   Yes, and it should be done.

Sight,
I appreciate this response;
do I owe you the million or should I
send it to the doc as we are by now
conditioned to do? kiddin\' ya, doc.
And I was gettin\' ready to ask you to
go into how the O2 binds to the red cells,
but that answer would no doubt rival Kee
yearlings by AP Indy in price.
skip