DMR tomorrow

[P-Dub]

Heading to the Gaslamp for dinner and a ballgame.  Del Mar tomorrow.

If anyone wants to discuss Del Mar racing for tomorrow, send me a person to person.  I don\'t want to clutter up JBs board. Looks like a mediocre card,  but a few races look interesting.

Shanny,
You can send a Saratoga bomb my way if you want...............I promise I won\'t waste it.

[miff]

It\'s a shame with two Grade 1\'s that the track super decided to race with a 4-5 inch cushion. If you ask you will be told that they were anticipating rain. More than a few trainers livid and lots of x\'s as a result.

[NoCarolinaTony]

Miff

They were bouncing all over the place today. Curious how you know about cushion depth?

NC Tony

[miff]

Tony,

After opening day(a big inside speed bias)some complained and the track super added to the surface to slow it down. When I was there mid august(10 days) the cushion was in the 4 1/2 in range. I think when rain is predicted they seal and it gets even slower.Raw times have generally been on the slow side considering that good horses at this meet are not running very fast raw times, except for a few like Bernardini, Discreet Cat,Henny Hughes. I believe the performance figs will be a little tough to make on some days.

Jerry, what do your guys tell you on cushion depth this meet at the SPA.


Mike

[bobphilo]

Mike,

Seems like the failure of so many contenders to run to their figures in both the Forego and Woodward may be tied in to the extra cushion added, which in effect turned Saratoga into a different track this weekend. Figures earned at other tracks and even Saratoga itself earlier this meet were irrelevant. Perhaps knowing the depth of cushion on race day is just as important, if not more so, than knowing whether the track was fast, good, sloppy, etc. Maybe even as important as knowing if the horses' previous races were on dirt, grass or Polytrack.

Bob

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Really at a loss to see why so many are attributing the Woodward day results to a track cushion change. The Woodward and Forego were not skewed results. The one two finishers in the Forego were the 2nd and 3rd choices. The Pletcher horse was not unforeseeable for money. Essentially, Commentator is a win or run out horse. The exception being that rabbit race, where he wore down the used up rabbits.

The Woodward was more interesting on the odds board, but the one two horses made sense if one perused the company lines of the latest races. Revision Second of June had not faced Sun King before. Second of June had some very nice back numbers and legitimate excuses. He was right Saturday and came up short to an improving horse. Pletcher usually brings them back running and when Flower Alley didn\'t fire last, you had to wonder. If you believed Sun King and Flower Alley were vulnerable, the horses that filled out the perfecta were logical. Let me check the red board, maybe the indignation is due to T-Figs I\'m not aware of...

Later...Yes there were some T-Figs to cause some consternation.

The winner though was credited with a negative 1 two races back and a negative 1 was a very competitive figure for the race. The weight on undoubtedly caused some disbelief there. Additionally, have always believed that Second of Junes Fountain of Youth was significantly faster than scored. Perhaps two points faster. Lastly Flower Alleys negative 2\'s always caused some head scratching. It was a bang up race. The one two finishers got up at good odds, dont think the track had much to do with it. Suave\'s miss of the board was the biggest surprise, but he had trouble and was coming off a superior effort.

bobphilo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike,
>
> Seems like the failure of so many contenders to
> run to their figures in both the Forego and
> Woodward may be tied in to the extra cushion
> added, which in effect turned Saratoga into a
> different track this weekend. Figures earned at
> other tracks and even Saratoga itself earlier this
> meet were irrelevant. Perhaps knowing the depth of
> cushion on race day is just as important, if not
> more so, than knowing whether the track was fast,
> good, sloppy, etc. Maybe even as important as
> knowing if the horses' previous races were on
> dirt, grass or Polytrack.
>
> Bob
>

[NoCarolinaTony]

Miff,

Is the data posted somewhere at the track or is it onformation gotten from someone you know?

NC Tony

[miff]

Tony,

At NYRA tracks it\'s posted,but better if you call the track super\'s office, someone will tell you.It\'s tricky because the same posted cushion, (e.g.3 1/2 in.) on consecutive days can produce wildly different raw times depending on moisture content, wind and daily maintenance. It also matters what calibre runners are involved, obviously.

Mike

[miff]

Chuck,


You entirely missed my point.The results are not in question but the fastest sprinters in the country can\'t run 1.23+ for 7f on a normal track producing normal energy return. Also 1.50.60 is not normal gr.1 raw time for older runners.

It will be interesting to see TG rate the race run in the third by Diamond Stripes, just a fifth slower than the Woodward but six less pounds.

Mike

[bobphilo]

Chuckles,

I'm not arguing that Premium Tap could not have been expected to improve off his Whitney figure, as Kimmel said that due to the sloppy track conditions he was unable to work the horse properly for the race. Nor am I contesting Pomeroy returning to his top after a good effort at Calder off the lay-off. I'm in no way denigrating his victory or his status as a contender. The issue is the inordinate number of other contenders that ran as if their PP's were a forgery.
As Jerry has pointed out in the past, it is unlikely that so many horses would suddenly go off form in the same race and this was much more probably due to the track condition. The fact that the track speed was significantly slower than last weekend, due to the deepening of the cushion, makes it even more likely that the track condition had a lot to do with the races' results.

Bob

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I\'m all for deeper tracks. Deeper tracks are generally safer and fairer tracks. I guess I dont get the point. The time itself isnt\' relevant to me, but yes how the race is scored will be.

A couple horses didn\'t run their race, but my point was Flower Alley and Suave had other reasons indicating why a top effort may not have been coming.

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck,
>
>
> You entirely missed my point.The results are not
> in question but the fastest sprinters in the
> country can\'t run 1.23+ for 7f on a normal track
> producing normal energy return. Also 1.50.60 is
> not normal gr.1 raw time for older runners.
>
> It will be interesting to see TG rate the race run
> in the third by Diamond Stripes, just a fifth
> slower than the Woodward but six less pounds.
>
> Mike

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Bob, other than form playing a role I can\'t say the horses didn\'t run their races. The figures will be interesting.

bobphilo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles,
>
> I'm not arguing that Premium Tap could not have
> been expected to improve off his Whitney figure,
> as Kimmel said that due to the sloppy track
> conditions he was unable to work the horse
> properly for the race. Nor am I contesting Pomeroy
> returning to his top after a good effort at Calder
> off the lay-off. I'm in no way denigrating his
> victory or his status as a contender. The issue is
> the inordinate number of other contenders that ran
> as if their PP's were a forgery.
> As Jerry has pointed out in the past, it is
> unlikely that so many horses would suddenly go off
> form in the same race and this was much more
> probably due to the track condition. The fact that
> the track speed was significantly slower than last
> weekend, due to the deepening of the cushion,
> makes it even more likely that the track condition
> had a lot to do with the races' results.
>
> Bob
>

[davidrex]

Your so right-on ctmc.
Good reading your comments when your not discounting someone eles\' opinions.
Your opinion of Zito\'s horses brought me back to earth and saved me from betting on a cripple.
I get a completely different understanding when you explain instead of criticize.


                                               Thanx