Open Letter To Marc Attenberg

[TGJB]

Marc sent me an e-mail saying his post on the Ragozin board wasn\'t referring to us. My response:

1-- How disingenous, because you have a little credibility problem. You are the same guy who posted PUBLICLY that he had credible information about ethical misconduct by high ranking TG employees, and when given a chance to either back it up or withdraw it publicly, did neither. Instead you sent me an e-mail telling me that your \"information\" was an ALLEGATION, made by the Ragozin office (very credible), about the conduct of someone WHILE HE WORKED FOR THEM, NOT US. But, of course, as far as the public knows, you have information that someone at Thoro-Graph has done something really bad.

2-- So, given your history of taking shots at us in public (and I could probably produce another 10 posts as evidence), who would the readers of your post about the NTRA contest think you were referring to, especially since your post came right on the heels of several by me revealing Michelson was one of our customers, and was not made on a general site like the Derby List (where you post), but on Ragozin\'s? How do you think your post would have played if I hadn\'t responded to it? How many Ragozin guys would have concluded I was lying, and may even now?

3-- You DIRECTLY used your connection with DRF to provide credibility for your remarks, making it look like you had inside information that we were lying-- you said that as a result of your job with DRF you had direct contact with contest winners. Right?

4-- Jamie Michelson called me an hour ago BECAUSE he saw your post, to tell me that he definitely used our data, and that ESPN got lots of shots of him doing it.

5-- Private e-mails, like the one you sent me today, and the one you sent me after the claim of ethical misconduct, don\'t mean squat. Public act, public recantation and apology, and the vague one with the apology to Friedman(!) won\'t do. I\'ll give you until I come into the office tomorrow (Tuesday) to post one, with the word Thoro-Graph in it, in the same place you gave the false impression. I suggest strongly you do it, and I further suggest you ask them to leave it up.

I\'m going to try to end this subject (Marc\'s nonsense) here. There are far better and more pleasant things to discuss about the contest.

[TGJB]

So Marc \"responded\" on the Rag board. He didn\'t withdraw it, and he didn\'t apologize-- he explained how he was right all the time, in typical cute Marc fashion

Marc, neither George nor I think you are an idiot. We think worse of you than that-- that you did it in full knowledge of what you were doing, for reasons I made clear in my open letter. Your response is an attempt to get off the hook with your employers-- who would be livid, as I would if anyone who worked for me pulled this crap-- and you are hoping the inference one can draw (that Michelson did in fact use TG) from your BS post is enough to satisfy me, and that I\'ll take the high road, and not take this to them.

And you know what? I\'m going to drop it. You\'re not worth it. But three strikes you\'re out, and I\'m not kidding. Stop defaming us, either explicitly or implicitly. And quit while you\'re ahead.

[Silver Charm]

If you control the DRF site as Jerry says you do let me say it is a damn \"good one\". The data being provided is out in front and informative. The links with packages such as the Sunshine Millions give a reader/handicapper all the info he or she needs to learn and read about the day.

In his Saturday column Ed-in-Chief Steve Crist (no sic) advised that using TV handicapping contests could bring new fans to the races. It wouldn\'t hurt to use some of the DRF marketing dollars to direct curiosity seekers to the DRF.com site.

Nice work my man.

[Mall]

I just got around to reading Crist\'s very good article, and wish he had been able to write it two yrs ago. During the time that it took the NTRA to work out what is essentially a swap of one hr of air time, the genre has become very crowded, with Poker Superstars, Poker at the Plaza, Celebrity Poker, Celebrity Blackjack, Blackjack Superstars, etc, etc. I hope I\'m wrong about this, but at this point it might be a little harder to get the viewing audience\'s attention. On the other hand, they did use the same production guys who put together the show that started the craze, so maybe better production values & ESPN\'s practice of constantly repeating such shows will create some new fans.

I also just got around to reading a lot of posts, including some on the other board, as for some unexplained reason I\'m no longer stopped at the coffee cup with the flame. I\'ll venture a guess that many people would agree with me that Woids has to be considered an instant classic. Very funny indeed.  

As you say, SC, the drf links are usually very good, & I continue to buy the paper for the same reason I used to buy Playboy--for the articles. That said, one of my current bugaboos is that their front page link to an in depth look at the Eclipse winners takes you to a series of pages which, unless I missed it, do not even contain the name of the Eclipse Award winner for Best Handicapper of the year, which he won in a contest the drf co-sponsored. I also noticed that none of national or KY papers included his name on the list of Eclipse winners. And I cannot fathom asking the winner of the contest at 6pm on Sat if he can attend a black tie dinner two days later in another city. They finally get the perfect candidate to represent the sport, & of course he can\'t attend for that very reason, so the best way to end the telecast, with Jamie accepting his Eclipse, is another lost marketing opportunity.

But all this pales in comparison to the way the WSH operates, as they apparently keep track of things with the kind of chalkboards which used to be prevalent in the wire rooms of old. No tournament updates, ever, so the only info you get is rumor, even though the technology for a close to real time leaderbd, including plays made, has been around for yrs. Want news re the contest? The Orleans\' site links you to a radio station which has a 3 hr racing talk show where, at some pt, the contest was presumably mentioned. And, as has been  pointed out, the site still does not contain any information on the tournament, although it does provide a lengthy piece detailing how Laura Stich was going to be on hand for their Sun contest signing her book on pedigree handicapping. On Sun on TVG Gary Siebel talked about the contest in some detail, would not say how Frank Lyons did(what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas), & commented that he would have liked to have provided info on the top 10 finishers, if he only knew who they were. Believe it or not, I\'m told that this contest was also taped for televison, & that we might see an animated OPM offering some verbal encouragement to that 21-1 winner he tabbed at SA. Unless they hire a magician to do the editing, that will be the highlight of the show.

Last, but certainly not least, catching up on the posts on this Bd was entertaining & informative, as there seems to me to be a bigger, better informed, & more diverse group posting now than at any time before. As I see it, this is the place you need to go for the kind of energy, passion, & exchange of ideas that make this game as much fun as it is... Sometimes.

[TGJB]

Mall-- as it happens I just got off the phone with the head of programming for TVG, who used our data to finish about 160th in the contest, after getting shut out on that same $44 horse, which would have put him about 25th, according to him. There\'s 8 million stories in the naked city.

Well, he still beat about 80% of the field. Anyway, TVG is probably going to televise that contest next year, but if anybody is televising this year\'s it\'s news to him, and he was there.

You ain\'t kidding about the lack of info. The coast site now has results-- right down to the third place finisher.

[Mall]

I can understand why you\'re interested in finding out who finished in what spot, but the much bigger issue in my mind is the complete lack of info for contestants. One of the fun aspects of the NTRA contests I\'ve been in, & also an important strategy consideration, is knowing where you stand, & taking that into account when deciding on plays, esp at the end. Completely missing in this event, obviously.

For the WSH, as I understand it the qualifying question is a little more complicated than usual. There were a few qualifying events outside Las Vegas, but most people qualify in March & Oct events which are also held at the Orleans. Both are significant cash events themselves, have a $500 buy-in(I think), allow 3 entries, & qualify the top 50 or so for the WSH. This yr, in an effort to attract more players to try, unsuccessfully it turns out, to meet their goal of a $1 million prize pool for the WSH, they announced prior to the Oct contest that the $2k buy in for the WSH was being lowered to $1k. What you would expect to happen happened, & there was a relatively low turnout for the Oct contest, as it doesn\'t make a great deal of sense to spend $2k or $3k trying to qualify for a contest which has a $1k buy in.

They told us that this past yr the number of entries trying to qualify for the NHC increased from 50,000 to more than 80,000. I think it\'s safe to say a significant no. of those come from the same group, as it was quite apparent in the 3 contests I entered that there is a core group of diehards who travel from contest to contest. In those events, I played the max number of entries, 8, &  after I qualified entered my wife in two subsequent contests, which accounted for 6 more entries, for a total of 14. Then there are the free internet contests on brisnet & other sites, which are known to draw up to 5,000 separate entries. Put it all together & my wag is that you can divide the total no of entries by 20 to get a very rough idea of how many different individuals were trying to qualify in a contest other than a free internet contest.

It\'s possible I missed it, but the big news on the contest front is something which has received little or no publicity. Per derby1592, Emerald Downs is offering a $500k bonus if you win the $200k 1st prize in the NHC & you qualified at EmD. Has me wondering if another road trip would be worth it, but it might not work if my message is: EmD, you replaced a track where I suffered a really bad beat about 20 yrs ago, so now, YOU OWE ME MONEY!!!

[Silver Charm]

>unless I missed it, do not even contain the name of the Eclipse Award winner for Best Handicapper of the year

>The coast site now has results-- right down to the third place finisher.

Last time I checked guys The Players are the ones who pay the bills. Glamorize the sport of wagering on horses and you might be surprised at who migrates over to the game to try and be a Star. Some of the great Legends of the Sport were people like Jules Fink and Pittsburgh Phil. Nowadays it seems that the powers-that-be are embarrassed to admit people wager on their sport.

Just like some owners who will try and buy their way into the winners circle, there are big-time handicappers who want to see their name go up in lights also. If the Racing industry will not do it, then they will take their money and go somewhere else that will.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Call him out on it. DRF is in the middle of a pretty serious \"Ethical Debate\". Now is the time to require integrity whether it be in trainers or in house. I can\'t read the Rag Board, but I can read between the lines and know you guys can too.

I haven\'t seen a set of the Rags in well over a decade. My brief exposure with their clientele leads me to believe they don\'t put the voluminous information in them that TGraph does. Thorograph is close to becoming a stand alone tool to compete with the Daily Racing Form. (Albeit a BMW 8 series vs. a GM)Could there be an unholy alliance budding?

You can\'t allow Saddam to join forces with Al Qaeda and become the next Hitler, Jerry. Its time to be Bushesque and squash it in it\'s infancy, regardless of the infants. At least your calls for integrity won\'t be hypocritical and you\'ll be going after the right guy.

http://www.riggsbank.com/Discover_Riggs/may31_00.html


http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/banking/2004-05-14-riggs-fine_x.htm

TGJB wrote:

> So Marc \"responded\" on the Rag board. He didn\'t withdraw it,
> and he didn\'t apologize-- he explained how he was right all the
> time, in typical cute Marc fashion
>
> Marc, neither George nor I think you are an idiot. We think
> worse of you than that-- that you did it in full knowledge of
> what you were doing, for reasons I made clear in my open
> letter. Your response is an attempt to get off the hook with
> your employers-- who would be livid, as I would if anyone who
> worked for me pulled this crap-- and you are hoping the
> inference one can draw (that Michelson did in fact use TG) from
> your BS post is enough to satisfy me, and that I\'ll take the
> high road, and not take this to them.
>
> And you know what? I\'m going to drop it. You\'re not worth it.
> But three strikes you\'re out, and I\'m not kidding. Stop
> defaming us, either explicitly or implicitly. And quit while
> you\'re ahead.
>
>



Post Edited (02-01-05 07:56)

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Ok Mall, aka \"Bert Gordon\", I\'m gonna have to view \"The Hustler\" again.

With the Bally\'s format, I imagine it is good to know precisely where you stand coming home. You should be able to look up at the leader board and decide if you need to eagle number 18 or if playing it safe is the way to go. Risking a driver over the lake can make for some T.V. drama, if they are covering the contest on T.V., but how is that real handicapping? Who comes to the last race and says \"Dang, I haven\'t made enough, I\'m sending it in on Mr. High Odds\" Kent Meyer may disprove my theory, but I think the Bally\'s format involves far too much luck. 2 points for a win, 1 point for a place and no requirement that the same horse be selected for both win and place. Force the handicappers to decide when a 4-5 is a winner and when he\'s a toss. Thats true handicapping. Otherwise it kind of boils down to betting every 20-1 horse with a remote chance and hoping the Good Fortune Gods smile on you for that tourney. I doubt you\'re gonna see many repeat winners with this format.

That said, the purse money is getting enticing and I may enter next year if they\'ll let me register as Chuckles the Clown.

[richiebee]

Chuckles:
The unholy alliance I would like to see (and
not the one you are referring to)is between DRF and TG.

Right now I can get all the information i feel I need to tackle Wednesday\'s AQ + 141k
3 day carryover by spending $1 to get DRF PPs
on line (they were available Saturday night)
and purchasing TG for $25. Cost $26

Sometime tomorrow I know I will see something
in TG or DRF that will make me go against
a gut feeling or a neural twinge and I will
make a costly mistake. I love this game.

So if DRF stopped trying to be a real newspaper, migrated online and used the money they saved to make TGJB very wealthy and empowered...

How much would this hybrid TGJB/DRF product
cost me? Less than $26? Could we keep it under 40 pages per race card? Where do I sign up?

[MO]

Or TG and BRIS which at least has decent pace figures....

[richiebee]

You want to award an Eclipse for best handicapper!?!

I\'d like to go the other way. Lets restrict
the Eclipses to colts, geldings, fillies,
mares. No more Eclipse owner or trainer.
If you want to reward humans, give them
some other award, call it something else.