Stuck in the middle with you...

[TGJB]

Craig-- nothing against you personally, but a lot against your company because of the guy who owns/runs it, a truly nasty piece of work. Over the years there have been tens of thousands of posts here, and some bad stuff, especially in the early years when the Rag guys were posting, peddling what they had been told. But the single worst act was by Attenberg, who consciously and intentionally defamed us here, and I have the emails to prove it.

On a fast look, I can tell you that a 63 foot runup (which we also used) is usually around 230 hundreths, nowhere near 3 plus. It\'s always possible Equibase has the runup wrong for that distance, this and/or other years.

The 5th race (SA Oaks) had a 70 foot runup, we got that one a few hundreths fast, not slow, using 247 hundreths. So if there\'s an issue it\'s whether the reported runup for the SA Derby is correct. Regardless, as I have said here already, I did the race off the horses, and it\'s tight (see sheets with earlier post).

The GP teletimer has historically been notoriously off. I didn\'t notice anything specific this year but I take a lot of liberties based on the horses, especially when there\'s a long run down a straightaway (wind can have a big effect), so I don\'t pay as close attention.

By the way, frame by frame video is still attached to a clock somewhere...

[TFUSfigs]

I don\'t know the history, but I can assure you that has nothing to do with me posting here.  I read here to see races from a different perspective, just as I\'ll check Beyer figures on occasion.  It was just one figure guy to another.  Marc has been nothing but professional with me.  People get wiser and change, no?

I completely understand about CC figure being tight, no disagreement from me.  I am a lot closer in mehtodololy to you than the other guy.

The timing I do is from the when the gate is completely open.  That is when I begin.  It is easy to pick out this exact spot for consistency.  I could do the same using the instant the gate first moves as well.  It doesn\'t really matter, as long as it is done the same way every time.  When I begin, the horses have barely moved, if at all.  Perhaps that is why my run up times are slower.

I don\'t know if the 63 feet that is reported is accurate, but I can tell that the gate is in the same spot within a few feet each time.  So again, doesn\'t really matter if the 63 feet is right.  It is consistent.

As for video being attached to a clock, that goes without saying of course.  Timing errors occur when something trips the beam early or it starts late, but I\'ve never seen anyone say the clock was not calibrated properly.  Possible I guess, but I really don\'t see it here.  If that were the case it would affect all races at Santa Anita, not just some.  Maybe I\'m misunderstanding something here.  For what it is worth, Trakus has the race timed .13 slower than the official time.  They do time from the gate as well but deduct run up distance and time.

As I\'m sure you know, Gulfstream uses Trakus now, not a teletimer, and there is an issue with mile races specifically. Even comparing multiple races on the same day can be a problem.  Like you, it doesn\'t matter much to me.  I treat those races separately.  All in all, Trakus is still a lot better than what they had in place.  It is that one specific distance that is a problem.

Anyway, thanks for letting me participate.  I\'m just a guy that loves talking racing and making figures.

[TGJB]

Quick story re video-- back in 2004, when Ragozin was a serious competitor, we used to check the figures they posted for big races so that we could point out ground loss errors, and we found several. For the Derby that year we noticed big differences starting after the 3rd finisher (Imperialism), and soon realized it wasn\'t ground, they had an error of about two lengths starting right there. We checked the charts, we watched the tape to verify the charts, the charts were correct. Ragozin had it wrong, significantly, in the biggest race of the year.

So as you might imagine, I posted about this, in detail and at length. And Jake came back on their site, saying there was no way they had it wrong, because they used video frame counting. I came back telling people to watch the damn race themselves. After a couple of days of maintaining that video doesn\'t lie they went dark.

But they didn\'t fix the error. They undoubtedly figured out they had a problem-- but rather than admit the error, they kept the original figures. Which their PAYING customers continued to use.

[TGJB]

As it happens, I just started doing the GP day (or one of them) with the bad times at a mile. No joke.

[jp702006]

Jerry,
 I am not entirely disagreeing with you, but without constructive debate, there can be no enlightenment.I think the hard part for many, myself included, is all of us have watched the preps. Some of us have viewed them multiple times. When what we see with our own two eyes does not match what the numbers tell us, it is difficult to reconcile the two. This is where the healthy debate comes from.

[jerry]

True. I regret making the comment. The irony is I don\'t even think the derby actually confirms anything because of all of the troubled trips in the race. I find the Preakness to be a truer indicator of who is the better 3 year old.