What Do Jerry Moss and Tom Osbourne Have In Common!

[Silver Charm]

\"The combatants don\'t have the benefit of Thorograph numbers. On that note I will hand the ball of\"

Moose I love Thorograph. They are the best Speed Figure in the Biz and there are some other good ones.

However Speed Figures are like Point Spread and the Power Rating systems that go into making them. The 72 Dolphins were an Underdog in that Super Bowl and the Joe Willie Jets were getting like 18 and a half.

Great athletes don\'t look at the Spread. They just go out and win. The Super Great go out and win everytime. Zenyatta still has work to do. She could up like the NE Pats vs the Giants. UNLV of Tark and LJ vs Duke or the 1975 Bob Knight Indiana Hoosiers vs Kentucky.

It only takes one loss and you are just another Good Team. Just as Tom Osbourne and 1984 Nebraska Cornhuskers.....

[moosepalm]

Silver Charm Wrote:
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> However Speed Figures are like Point Spread and
> the Power Rating systems that go into making them.
> The 72 Dolphins were an Underdog in that Super
> Bowl and the Joe Willie Jets were getting like 18
> and a half.
>


Silver, I can\'t tell you how many times I\'ve gone to the windows, 3 or 4 days after a race, and demanded to collect a win bet on my second place finisher who ran a \"7\" vs. the winner\'s \"8.\"

The discussions of greatness get framed within a variety of contexts, none of which are all encompassing.  For many, Zenyatta\'s unblemished record defines her greatness.  For others, the relative homogeneity of her competition and/or racing surface, undermines it.  Irreconcilable differences, plain and simple.  If she loses, will that convincingly tarnish her greatness?  Didn\'t seem to affect Secretariat, and a host of others.  Or are they simply measured in another context?

Ultimately, I have found that such distinctions can only be meaningfully discussed by the \"eye test,\" and yet, what can be more subjective than that?  By so many criteria, Tiger is the best ever, yet it grows increasingly unlikely that he will surpass Jack\'s major\'s total.  Well, for a period of time he did what none had done before, and in an undeniably incandescent way.  Now, he\'s the guy getting run down by the latest flavor of the month, albeit very talented flavor.  And he\'s also the guy who got chased out of his house by his golf-club wielding wife.  That does seem to dilute one\'s cachet in such matters.  Beyond Tiger, who are your eye test stalwarts?  Football QB\'s in recent history, Brady and Manning.  That seems obvious with Brees on the cusp, and Favre hoping that longevity and sentiment cloud the issue.  I\'d like to think you don\'t need TG numbers or QB ratings to make that determination.

Ultimately, I dodge such discussions like a maiden state bred claimer on the turf.  The beauty of this game is that you have your answers in two and a half minutes or less.  It\'s clear, it\'s clean, and it\'s decisive.  There\'s only one context that matters.  And if you didn\'t like that one, there\'s generally another one coming down the road, only thirty minutes away.

[Funny Cide]

Smalltimer, did she miss a beat from that bout of dehydration?  She didn\'t miss any works, she didn\'t miss any races, she won her next race.  Horses travel around every day going to and from tracks, farms, and vet clinics.  A fair percentage of them \"get a little excitable\" or a little deydrated or whatever.  No one hears about them, no one is excusing all of them from still going out there to ship wherever it is they need to ship.  One little bout of dehydration printed and it\'s blown up to huge, Zenyatta proportions, as if this is extraordinary instead of ordinary.  

I find it frustrating that so many (not just you) exaggerate this whole situation.  I\'m not even sure why people do it.  They seem to want to give Zenyatta/Shireffs an excuse to not ship, but the claim that she\'s a basketcase who can\'t ship is a mark against her (the standard that horses ship and run at many tracks being one that goes back a long ways), so it backfires, really.

[smalltimer]

Funny Cide,
I\'ll agree when you say, \"Horses travel around every day going to and from tracks, farms and vet clinics.  A fair percentage of them \"get a little excitable: or a little dehydrated or whatever. No one hears about them, no one is excusing all of them from still going out there to ship wherever it is they need to ship.  One little bout of dehydration printed and its blown up to huge, Zenyatta proportions, as if this is extraordinary instead of ordinary.\"
The reason we don\'t read about that 25,000 claimer that becomes dehydrated or is a bad shipper is because nobody gives a shit.....
Anytime, ANY big horse shows a negative side after an event, it is a big deal.
You\'re just gonna have to be frustrated by the manner in which John handles this mare.  
Where\'s the standard that horses ship and run at many tracks being one that goes back a long ways..Did I miss that, or is it written somewhere?

[alm]

I thought I suggested that you not mention Secretariat, Dr. Fager or even Affirmed in the same post as that filly.  If they only had to face a group of average to good fillies, poly and grass horses, they would have been undefeated too.  Your frame of reference is skewed.  

It\'s not their blemished records, it\'s their accomplishments.  It\'s their world records, their track records and the group they defeated.  It\'s how they defeated their foes.  This filly couldn\'t have warmed up Sham.  Look at the final quarter Secretariat had to run to beat him in the Derby.  What makes you think she could have fired off the first mile of that Derby?  She would have been scorched by the final 6 furlongs of his Belmont if she had to run against the first 6 furlongs he laid down.

And it\'s possible that Secretariat would have been fried by Dr. Fager head-to-head at 8 or 9 panels.  This is a different category of horse.

[alm]

Oh, and one other thing.

Perhaps the reason these truly great horses were actually defeated in races was because they ran in the premier races, over and over.  This filly has not...not even the Pacific Classic, right?  Not to mention a dozen other races at Mid-Western and Eastern tracks.

What is that I hear in my ear?  Could it be the word \'ducking?\'

[Funny Cide]

smalltimer Wrote:
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> Funny Cide,
> I\'ll agree when you say, \"Horses travel around
> every day going to and from tracks, farms and vet
> clinics.  A fair percentage of them \"get a little
> excitable: or a little dehydrated or whatever. No
> one hears about them, no one is excusing all of
> them from still going out there to ship wherever
> it is they need to ship.  One little bout of
> dehydration printed and its blown up to huge,
> Zenyatta proportions, as if this is extraordinary
> instead of ordinary.\"
> The reason we don\'t read about that 25,000 claimer
> that becomes dehydrated or is a bad shipper is
> because nobody gives a @#$%&.....
> Anytime, ANY big horse shows a negative side after
> an event, it is a big deal.
> You\'re just gonna have to be frustrated by the
> manner in which John handles this mare.  
> Where\'s the standard that horses ship and run at
> many tracks being one that goes back a long
> ways..Did I miss that, or is it written somewhere?

I guess you missed it because horses have always been penalized for not winning out of California or New York (think Sky Beauty) or their home state.  Obviously Zenyatta\'s won outside of CA this year so she won\'t be penalized severely (like not getting a year-end award) but surely you haven\'t missed the criticism over her lack of shipping.

I don\'t know if Sheriffs has done an incredible job with Zenyatta, keeping a mare sound and undefeated, or if he\'s squandered one of the best mares in history by not letting her shine.  But I do know this - if it\'s the latter, it\'s Sheriffs\' fault and not Zenyatta\'s.  It\'s not that she can\'t ship, it\'s that Sheriffs didn\'t want to ship.  He\'s tossed out every excuse in the book, whether it\'s that the mare got dehydrated once or the detention barn or, the most ludicrous of them all, he can\'t manage to find her a flight.  All the while, he has tossed out that he was considering this race out East and that race out East.  Does that mean he considered it for a half-second while he laughed at the consideration?

I like Sheriffs but what trainer of one of the best horses in history chooses to race that horse over a surface that horse doesn\'t prefer?  Not once, mind you, but 16 of 18 times.  What trainer states that the all-time great in his barn hates a surface (Del Mar) and still chooses to race that horse on that surface?

I can\'t even say that Sheriffs had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity because it\'s the rare trainer who will ever have a great in their barn in their lifetime.  Sheriffs was one of the lucky ones.  Instead of considering that when he looked at the upcoming 2010 and deciding to move the mare/stable East for at least Saratoga forward through the BC, he apparently couldn\'t leave his favorite chair and remote control.  

So it\'s the trainer\'s doing - it\'s not any flaw of the mare\'s that has kept her at home, and I don\'t like seeing the mare blamed for the lack of shipping.

[smalltimer]

Funny Cide,
Fair enough.  Don\'t you wonder just a bit about Rachel\'s campaign last year and the toll it has taken on her?  Shes\'s been like a shot fighter all year compared to her exploits of \'09.  Real good but not dominant like so many thought she would be.
Here we have Zenyatta, 6 years old, as sound as sound can possibly be.  John has managed her a lot different than ALL of us would have liked, but he calls the shots and he\'s likely to have a very fresh, very good 6 year to load in the gate at Churchill.  Then, she\'ll either be good enough or she won\'t, it won\'t be because she is burned out like Rachel or no longer wants to compete.  She\'ll be a big factor in that race at Churchill. Again, my only concern is her trip and her age and if the track turns up wet, because that\'s an unknown with her at this time.  
If she happens to win, then all the naysayers were wrong all along.  We all know it will take one helluva horse to win that Classic.  Whoever that is will get all the accolades that race provides.
Have a good one,
Peace out