Paying Attention

[Barry Irwin]

I am in Chicago today.

I ran into Jim Garrison, the former DA from New Orleans who made a fool out of himself with a JFK conspiracy theory. He said that he and Mort Sahl wanted to get together for lunch with Chuckles the Clown to put the final touches on the Pletcher doping case. They figure that this will be their best chance to redeem themselves.

They\'ve lined up Pierre Salinger and we are going to go downtown, hit a few missions and flop houses and try to find The Clown. Will report back later on any findings.

By the way, what\'s less expensive, Ripple or Thunderbird, in case we need a few bottles to ease our way through the jungles of the Windy City.

I wonder if Nelson Algren might know.

[marcus]

CtC2 - IMO  Even if some of what your saying is remotely plausible - it still doesn\'t prove anything . Personally , I feel that you might strengthen your argument by discussing the \"numbers\" and \"progeny\" of these horses when addressing performance , breeding or health issues . Sunday at DMR there is a certain trainer with-out a single horse entered on the card - coincidental ? circumstantial ? It seems to marginally contradict your theory ...

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

MO, when it comes to observations, there is no one better at them than a handicapper. The problem is gamblers are not very good at observations and there\'s the rub.

Its not my delivery that is the problem. I\'m throwing it over the plate, but there\'s too much velocity and movement for many of the batters in this park to even see the pill. let alone make contact.

I\'m sure Plech is a nice guy. I\'m sure he wouldn\'t intentionally club a baby seal or win knowing his horse had to die. I honestly believe that losing the horses bothers him. In his comments from the die off, you can read between the lines and understand he was struggling with experimenting on them. I\'m also certain he ingratiates himself easily. But, you\'re not saying a nice guy can\'t be as money motivated and self interested as the next check kiter, bank robber or axe murderer are you?

MO, a fair percentage of the posters here are pari mutual fodder. They don\'t have any significance other than adding to the pools. Among them you\'ll find trainer bettors and those type cash often enough on Plech that they consider challenging him blasphemy. Then there\'s the group of guys that include you. Folks without ego that are civil to all. I\'m not in your league there, but if you note I only let those have it that are rude and have the truth coming to them on ignorance.

But MO its within Your power. If you shake hands with Plech now and then ask him. Break into it with psychology. Tell him you just read an interesting article on Allday and that you understand he works for Plech, then slide into asking when Allday first began treating horses for him.

You\'ll find its right at the time I\'ve indicated.

I\'ll drop the topic for the time being. Those that can contribute now understand how. We\'ll pick it up again when there\'s another \'development\".



MO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At the risk of having a new asshole reamed by many
> of the posters here because in their eyes I\'m just
> a \"lucky asshole bugler\", I\'m going out on a limb
> here to offer my observations ( I do get paid to
> observe, so I\'m confident that I know my
> observations are accurate) and hope you will be
> patient enough to indulge me here:
>
> Chuck: I used to have a real problem with anger
> and depression. I got help and got \"cured\",
> although many people choose to put me \"in a box\"
> and refuse to believe it. That\'s a long story and
> I won\'t go into the details, but there was one
> time before I got help that my younger brother
> said to me after I was complaining about a family
> matter: \"You know, we know everything you say is
> right, but your delivery sucks! And therefore we
> ignore you.\"
>
> I know Todd well enough to say hello. He knows who
> I am and we used to watch races together when he
> worked for Lukas. He\'s not a friend, just an
> acquaintance. But we have a mutual respect for each
> other. He has no problem walking up to me (unlike
> his boss) and shaking my hand.
>
> I personally do not believe he\'s a cheater, just a
> great student and has learned from mistakes of his
> teachers. But I do believe that there is so much
> cheating going on that I choose not to put my $
> through the windows any more as a professional
> handicapper (with lifetime profit in the tens of
> thousands of dollars still intact).
>
> I do think some of the personal attacks against
> Chuck are warrented because of his delivery, but I
> also look at those same people attacking Chuck and
> their posts and can\'t help but think they are
> sadly brainwashed into believing that Chuck\'s
> accusations are impossible.

[Barry Irwin]

http://www.jardinefoods.com/

The secret is that Todd Pletcher rubs a little of these products on the inside glutleal.

[MO]

Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MO, when it comes to observations, there is no one
> better at them than a handicapper.I\'LL TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT The problem is
> gamblers are not very good at observations and
> there\'s the rub. AGREED
>
> Its not my delivery that is the problem. IT IS TOO I\'m
> throwing it over the plate, but there\'s too much
> velocity and movement for many of the batters in
> this park to even see the pill.YOU ASSUME TOO MUCH. MANY ARE DOUBLE A PLAYERS AND HAVEN\'T GOT A PRAYER OF MAKING CONTACT  let alone make
> contact.
>
> I\'m sure Plech is a nice guy. I\'m sure he wouldn\'t
> intentionally club a baby seal or win knowing his
> horse had to die. I honestly believe that losing
> the horses bothers him. In his comments from the
> die off, you can read between the lines and
> understand he was struggling with experimenting on
> them. I\'m also certain he ingratiates himself
> easily. But, you\'re not saying a nice guy can\'t be
> as money motivated and self interested as the next
> check kiter, bank robber or axe murderer are you? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I\'M STILL A NATIVE NYer AND THEREFORE TRUST NO ONE!!!! THAT\'S WHY I DON\'T BET!!!! BESIDES, TAP GOES OFF AT 3-5 often. WHERE\"S THE VALUE??? YOU KNOW HE\'s GONNA WIN, SO WHY NOT PASS THE RACE, OR BETTER YET, DON\'T PUT $ THROUGHT THE WINDOWS AT ALL ANYMORE??? ARE YOU ADDICTED??? THEN GET HELP. ARE YOU A FOOL? THEN, NOT MY PROBLEM!!!!!
>
>
> MO, a fair percentage of the posters here are pari
> mutual fodder. They don\'t have any significance
> other than adding to the pools. THERE\'s YOUR LOUSY DELIVERY AGAIN!!!! Among them you\'ll
> find trainer bettors and those type cash often
> enough on Plech that they consider challenging him
> blasphemy. Then there\'s the group of guys that
> include you. Folks without ego that are civil to
> all. I\'m not in your league there, but if you note
> I only let those have it that are rude and have
> the truth coming to them on ignorance. I DEAL WITH THIS EVERYDAY. THICK HEADS CANNOT BE PENTRATED!!!! WHY WASTE THE ENERGY ON THEM IN CONVENTIONAL WAYS??
>
> But MO its within Your power. MY PROBLEM IS THAT NO ONE TAKES ME SERIOUSLY. IT\'S TOO EASY TO WRITE ME OFF AS A LUCKY ASSHOLE BUGLER. NO BODY TAKES MY SUCCESSOR AS A SERIOUS HANDICAPPER, AND RIGHTLY SO BECAUSE HE HASN\'T GOT A CLUE ABOUT HANDICAPPING. AND HE FREELY ADMITS IT. HE\'s CONTENT TO BE A LAUGHING STOCK, AND THUS THE NY BRED HORSES NAMED IN HIS HONOR. AND SO IF I APPROACH TAP WITH YOUR SUGGESTION, I WOULD LIKELY BE PUT IN THE SAME CLASS, AND THAT WOULD BE INACCURATE,AND UNFAIR TO ME - TO SAY THE LEAST  If you shake hands
> with Plech now and then ask him. Break into it
> with psychology. Tell him you just read an
> interesting article on Allday and that you
> understand he works for Plech, then slide into
> asking when Allday first began treating horses for
> him.
>
> You\'ll find its right at the time I\'ve indicated.
>
> I\'ll drop the topic for the time being. Those that
> can contribute now understand how. We\'ll pick it
> up again when there\'s another \'development\".
>
>
>
> MO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > At the risk of having a new asshole reamed by
> many
> > of the posters here because in their eyes I\'m
> just
> > a \"lucky asshole bugler\", I\'m going out on a
> limb
> > here to offer my observations ( I do get paid
> to
> > observe, so I\'m confident that I know my
> > observations are accurate) and hope you will be
> > patient enough to indulge me here:
> >
> > Chuck: I used to have a real problem with anger
> > and depression. I got help and got \"cured\",
> > although many people choose to put me \"in a
> box\"
> > and refuse to believe it. That\'s a long story
> and
> > I won\'t go into the details, but there was one
> > time before I got help that my younger brother
> > said to me after I was complaining about a
> family
> > matter: \"You know, we know everything you say
> is
> > right, but your delivery sucks! And therefore
> we
> > ignore you.\"
> >
> > I know Todd well enough to say hello. He knows
> who
> > I am and we used to watch races together when
> he
> > worked for Lukas. He\'s not a friend, just an
> > acquaintance. But we have a mutual respect for
> each
> > other. He has no problem walking up to me
> (unlike
> > his boss) and shaking my hand.
> >
> > I personally do not believe he\'s a cheater, just
> a
> > great student and has learned from mistakes of
> his
> > teachers. But I do believe that there is so
> much
> > cheating going on that I choose not to put my $
> > through the windows any more as a professional
> > handicapper (with lifetime profit in the tens
> of
> > thousands of dollars still intact).
> >
> > I do think some of the personal attacks against
> > Chuck are warrented because of his delivery, but
> I
> > also look at those same people attacking Chuck
> and
> > their posts and can\'t help but think they are
> > sadly brainwashed into believing that Chuck\'s
> > accusations are impossible.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I hope you didn\'t have to copy that word for word then Richie.

Cut and Paste works on both Text and the Address Bar at the top of each Web Page.

Left Click on the desired Target and drag the cursor over the desired Text or Address. When High-lit, Right Click, and then select the \"Copy\" prompt. Navigate to the site of your response and Right Click again, this time selecting \"Paste\". Wa La, easier than beating a dishonest trainer! (Next lesson I\'ll show you how to locate a two word phrase in a 10,000 word document with the couple clicks of the mouse)

I cut, pasted and browsed your colic reference into a \"google search\" and came up with this:

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10072

Its possible Left Bank did colic at 2 I suppose, but the assertion is naked (And they give me grief here) It also surprising that they don\'t mention Left Bank\'s demise from \"colic\". Maybe being Vets they were smart enough to know not to suggest that.

The other factor is perhaps Left Bank was especially susceptible to intestine trouble when his system was \"off\".  

Regardless the three undiagnosed illnesses in six days followed on the heels of  recent wins in Graded Stakes (An allowance for Warners) all acknowledged \"Top Level\" performers, one a previous short winded type on a career top, track record, at a novel distance, without another horse in the Plech barn or Spa in general coming down with the afflictions is enough in combination to create a rebutable presumption that the barn did something to both sicken those horses and enable them to run exceedingly fast/well scant days prior.  A very interesting combination. Now a rebutable presumption shifts the burden of proof. It is now up to the naysayers and apologists to offer evidence to prove that the barn was not responsible for the death of said horses.

Show us your evidence

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck:
>
> I am not computer literate enough to link articles
> or websites to the TG board,
> but the following comes from \"the horse.com (Your
> Guide to Equine Health Care)\".
> Article 10072, dated July 28, 2007, authored by
> Cristy West, contains the
> following:
>
> \"The first six months after colic surgery is the
> critical period, and if you
> get to one year after surgery, you can relax a
> little,\"  Freeman
> said. \"People think that a horse after colic
> surgery is finished, but thats not
> true. We know that many of these horses go back to
> very top level performance.
> For example, Left Bank was a thoroughbred who
> colicked as a two year old and
> had some small intestine removed. He raced from
> two to five years old and had
> 24 starts and 14 wins...\"
>
> The Dr. Freeman who is quoted is a veterinarian on
> the faculty of the
> University of Florida.
>
> Your approach, and your writing style, are such
> that the occasional inclusion of
> some facts would do nothing to dilute your posts
> or soften their impact.

[miff]

Frank Passero was using Red Hot Chili Pepper in that \"area\" at GP 10+ years or so ago when he won many races, better than the Pletch stuff, imo.

[fkach]

Chuckles,

The problem is that you present your OPINIONS and weak evidence against Pletcher as if they offer irrefutable proof that the rest of us are too dumb to understand. You also seem to obsess over him. IMO, most people would probably argue that there are many better targets for attack among the leading trainers.

We are allowed to have suspicions and sometimes we even know someone is guilty without being able to prove it. However, there are some very logical legal explanations for TP\'s training success and for the performances of many of the horses you have complained about. IMHO, that much is so clear, it gets hard to swallow your attitude on this.

I think if you presented your evidence as reasons for suspicion and listened carefully to the counter arguments, we wouldn\'t have to debate this endlessly and no one would have a problem with your view.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I promised to knock off the dissertation for awhile and I\'m breaking that pledge as if it was a banned substance regulation.

I don\'t follow California at all now, so I have no idea what trainer you\'re referring to. I\'m assuming you\'re implying he\'s skipping the day\'s card out of fear of enhanced oversight, but even then I\'m not sure. My limited knowledge of Del Mar is that there\'s scores of horse-folk up in arms at the reconfigured track  that are ready to bolt. Maybe the suggested trainer is one of them?

If you want to discuss proof of doping in terms of performance figures thats science. Plech\'s horses began earning unreal figures in 2002 and in the two years prior Plech was on a remarkable overall improvement curve. The figures provide strong evidence, but the evidentiary volume against Plech is even stronger. I could tell you Left Bank popped 2 record fast efforts before he died, but thats me, maybe Tgraph will let you see Left Bank\'s sheet in historical context.

One of the key factors of course was Allday\'s involvement with the trainers that were popping Negative 3 and faster: Plech, Frankel, Dutrow. The other guy that was/is firing huge numbers is Zito, but to this point I haven\'t identified those two together.

I consider post career breeding results the poorest indicator of doping. However, I do factor premature retirement and premature death significantly.

I\'m actually amazed at the skepticism that exists. Its a double edged issue. Its a negative for a near term resolution on doping, but its a positive indicator regarding the health of the pari mutual pool. (MO would call that last line bad delivery...lol)

marcus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CtC2 - IMO  Even if some of what your saying is
> remotely plausible - it still doesn\'t prove
> anything . Personally , I feel that you might
> strengthen your argument by discussing the
> \"numbers\" and \"progeny\" of these horses when
> addressing performance , breeding or health issues
> . Sunday at DMR there is a certain trainer
> with-out a single horse entered on the card -
> coincidental ? circumstantial ? It seems to
> marginally contradict your theory ...

[sighthound]

>> If you want to discuss proof of doping in terms of performance figures thats science.

You pretty much ignore science.  You don\'t have the knowledge base to go beyond your sheet figure arguments regarding what specific type of \"doping\" could account for such figures.

Some of us do, and thus can see the baselessness in most of your contentions.  You have repeatedly demonstrated on this list that you have little to no real comprehension of horse health, veterinary medicine, nor of pharmacology.
 
You are simply another faceless member of the masses, who believes there is a little syringe containing a magical substance called, \"move up juice\"; and who trots out it\'s use to explain anything you cannot validate within your context of comprehension.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

You\'re behind the curveball again fkach, the burden of proof has now legally shifted to you. Call it res ipsa loquitur if you wish.

Its now up to you and the other naysayers to offer proof that Plech and/or his stable did not do something to kill his horses in August of 2002. I don\'t think you understand that yet.

See you at the windows.

fkach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles,
>
> The problem is that you present your OPINIONS and
> weak evidence against Pletcher as if they offer
> irrefutable proof that the rest of us are too dumb
> to understand. You also seem to obsess over him.
> IMO, most people would probably argue that there
> are many better targets for attack among the
> leading trainers.
>
> We are allowed to have suspicions and sometimes we
> even know someone is guilty without being able to
> prove it. However, there are some very logical
> legal explanations for TP\'s training success and
> for the performances of many of the horses you
> have complained about. IMHO, that much is so
> clear, it gets hard to swallow your attitude on
> this.
>
> I think if you presented your evidence as reasons
> for suspicion and listened carefully to the
> counter arguments, we wouldn\'t have to debate this
> endlessly and no one would have a problem with
> your view.

[ronwar]

Using your theory Phil Jackson also used \"something\" while winning all those championships.  Lets look at the proof.  The Bulls had Michael, Scottie and the rest of the guys but couldn\'t get over the hump.  Along comes Mr. Jackson and all of a sudden they win six rings.  Must have used the stuff.  This is not an isolated incident mind you as he pulled the same thing in Los Angeles.  Shaq and Kobe also couldn\'t get over the hump.  Enter Mr. Jackson and whatever his magic potion is, and what do you know, three more rings.

Something needs to be done!

I just heard Tiger Woods was sited in the back of a white Mercedes chatting with Pletcher and Jackson. Also, the source who will remain nameless said Barry Sanders early retirement was due to effects of the \"stuff\". Heck, no one runs like without \"something\"...Hmmmm, the more you think about it...

I\'m with you Chuckles!  Fire up the wagon, I\'m on board!

[fkach]

In what country is someone guilty because of the opinions of some anonymous horseplayer whose highly subjective interpretations of race results and horse performances is the primary evidence?

I happen to be one of your few fans because you are so willing to go against the grain of dominant opinion here, but you are losing me on this one.

I remember Left Bank and his huge move forward (that entire period), but I would have to revisit the story to form a strong opinion. I don\'t remember many of the details of the races that contributed to his figures. A single TG Sheet wouldn\'t cut it for me.  

However, I am very familiar with Lawyer Ron and think it\'s preposterous for anyone to \"leap\" to the conclusion that illegal drugs account for his recent improvement. To me, anyone with more than casual understanding of this game should be able to appreciate that LR was rank on a fairly consistent basis in his races last year - even when he was beating weaker. That problem has obviously been corrected and allowed him to improve. Furthermore Barry has given us a very good reason for why the horse was behaving that way last year. It was a motivation in his recommendation to purchase the horse. Lastly, do you really find it shocking that a 4YO that had a few nice races as a 3YO is suddenly running faster at 4?  It\'s practically the norm!

Pointing to weak circumstantial evidence is not proof. No one here is saying that TP never cheated. They are saying there are very good reasons he could be having this success without cheating. So the burden is on people like you.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Come on ronwar you can\'t be that thick man.

Phil Jackson did it with the Nicks, the Lakers and the Bulls. He couldn\'t dope that many players and keep it quiet. Besides how many of his teammates dropped dead on the parquet floor during the 7th game?

Plech on the other hand can only really win with Allday. But even that aint a conspiracy viceroy.

Listen man, do you even know what a conspiracy is? A conspiracy is an inchoate crime. Look it up, not conspiracy dude, but inchoate, you basketball jonesin knucklehead. You might learn somethin.

Yeah what Plech and Allday got going ain\'t a conspiracy jones, its a fait accompli. Thats French dude. You could look it up.

Time for another cold one and some T.V. and a nice Swanson T.V. dinner. Damn, a gamblers life for me.

Can you really bet on Golf?

ronwar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Using your theory Phil Jackson also used
> \"something\" while winning all those championships.
>  Lets look at the proof.  The Bulls had Michael,
> Scottie and the rest of the guys but couldn\'t get
> over the hump.  Along comes Mr. Jackson and all of
> a sudden they win six rings.  Must have used the
> stuff.  This is not an isolated incident mind you
> as he pulled the same thing in Los Angeles.  Shaq
> and Kobe also couldn\'t get over the hump.  Enter
> Mr. Jackson and whatever his magic potion is, and
> what do you know, three more rings.
>
> Something needs to be done!
>
> I just heard Tiger Woods was sited in the back of
> a white Mercedes chatting with Pletcher and
> Jackson. Also, the source who will remain nameless
> said Barry Sanders early retirement was due to
> effects of the \"stuff\". Heck, no one runs like
> without \"something\"...Hmmmm, the more you think
> about it...
>
> I\'m with you Chuckles!  Fire up the wagon, I\'m on
> board!

[alm]

Chuckles, don\'t waste your breath on him.  Most of these characters have no sense of the sport to begin with.  This one is framing his \'position\',if you want to dignify it with that term, with a completely unrelated comparison.  

You might ask him to comment on the crooked referee who was outed...or six decades of crooked players shaving points in college games.  That would be more relevant to what we have been commenting on in horseracing.