pletcher

[NoCarolinaTony]

DavidRX,

I\'ve also been following Colonial this year and plan to enter DRF qualifying Hadicapping contest they have. The prices they have are incredible this year due to lower than NY/CA/KY pool sizes  and 12- 14 horse fields has yeilded incredible returns.In Win Exacta and Tri\'s Super sometimes come up light due to not enough $ in the pool. Pic 3 and 4 have been nice as well.

Check the results for this past Tuesday. With the TGsheets it was very possible to include the $38 winner in the 4th and with a little imagination the $170+ winner of the 5th (2x turf strecthing out off 9 days rest with nice improvement on turf fig ie 21 vs field low of 16)


Keep it quiet don\'t let the rest know whats going on there.

NC Tony

[Mall]

I\'ve heard nothing but good things about the Col contest, & following their races on a regular basis should give you an advantage, since the contest races are limited to those at Col. That & relatively low prize money usually limits the size of the field, another advantage.

There is one thing I would suggest if there\'s anyway you can manage it, namely convince a trusted friend or two to tag along so you can circumvent the one entry limit. You chances tend to increase exponentially with extra entries, & you avoid making the wrong choice between live 30-1 & a 16-1 shots, as I did in the 1st contest race at CD today. Of course, it wouldn\'t have mattered if Probable Payoff gets up in the 8th, in which case I win the contest & cash a pk4 worth many times what the winner of the contest got. You might even remember PP\'s jock from Kee, none other than Water Gap\'s regular pilot, Shelley Moran. THAT WOMAN OWES ME MONEY!!!!        

[Silver Charm]

I am looking at Madcap Escapades PP\'s over lunch and noticed that Trainer Frankie Brothers has sent out 49 starters this year and had one drug positive that we know of.

Using a different form of Trainers Stats can I assume that at least 2% of his starters are under the influence of illegal drugs. Is there anyway Mandown and DRF can incorporate this kind of data into the quality Trainers Stats info they both supply?

Thanks

[TGJB]

Hard to know how to respond to this, since I don\'t know what other stats you are talking about.

[Silver Charm]

Knowing that Mandown does your data I was referring to your Trainers Stats and the ones DRF uses.

Clearly this was a joke but things are getting to the point where there may a whole new set of categories.

First Time Milkshake.
Second Time Milkshake.
First race after Positive.
In the money with Positives.
In the money without Positives.

I have seen more than a few Tote Boards over the years which made me wonder who was in the loop.

I just got back from Hilton Head and just got a chance to read much of this thread (you all probably liked it better that way:) .

How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs. legal performance enhancer unless something is listed as one or the other?

For example, what we generally refer to as good nutrition is a performance enhancer we approve of.

We don\'t disqualify boxers that just switched to a trainer that gets them to eat the perfect amount of protein supplements to increase strength over the long haul and mega doses of carbs just prior to fight night to get peak stamina even though we didn\'t expect the improved performance.  

How do you do keep the lists of approved/unapproved things current when science is constantly coming up with new ways of improving performance?

Suppose someone is using various herbs, vitamins, minerals, food supplements etc... that improve health, reduce pain and inflamation, treat various health conditions etc...  That\'s not completely different from using other naturally occurring compounds that are also extracted from plants, animals etc... and have a stronger effect. The main difference is that over time people form different opinions about what is OK and what is not OK. However, there are always some people that are ahead of the general information curve about what works.

IMO, what is needed is a list of \"approved\" medications, supplements, vet procedures etc.. and just make everything else illegal as the default. Then freeze blood and urine samples.

If some nutitionist, chemist, or vet out there comes up with something new that works, it should simply go through an industry/state review process to determine its merits.

IMO, the way it is now there\'s loads of grey in all this. There are almost certainly a few trainers/vets that are using naturally ocurring supplements or  new medical procedures etc.. that improve performance that are NOT listed as illegal. I can\'t see how you seperate those from all the other things used to improve performance unless you list the approved ones and call everything else illegal.  

We all know we don\'t want this going on without our knowledge, but IMO we need specifics.

[HP]

Class,

How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs. legal performance enhancer?  Pletcher is using the illegal ones, that\'s how.  

Nobody else has a problem understanding this.  The rules are plenty specific and Pletcher breaks them.  Does Pletcher have to meet you and jam a needle in your ass to get you to understand?  Apparently so.  In this particular instance there is no \"grey area.\"  There\'s even a legal brief attached regarding an earlier incident.  Couldn\'t be more specific.  There\'s no mystery about legal vs. illegal.  And even if they use a new thing that isn\'t on the banned list everyone still knows what\'s going on and it\'s not like they get an exemption for doing it.  It\'s still a positive.  You don\'t know what you\'re talking about.  Give it up.  Please.  

HP

HP,

\"How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs. legal performance enhancer? Pletcher is using the illegal ones, that\'s how. \"

I\'m not talking about isolated positives in a multi-state operation with dozens of horses that are allowed to be treated with banned substances between races. Those are the obvious cases that need to be investigated to see what and why it happened. Fines and punishments are usually handed out for these when appropriate.

I also wasn\'t being specific to Pletcher in this case.

I am talking about the kinds of accusations that are leveled against some trainers because almost their entire barn is running so well - though obviously  Pletcher falls into that category.

You obviously believe that TP is using all sorts of performance enhancers.

Do you have a list of everything he is using?

Are you sure they are all on the list of banned substances?

I think perhaps many trainers are using things that haven\'t even been identified yet let alone put on a list of banned substances! That\'s why the default has to be everything is illegal except X, Y, Z.....  There will always be some people that are a little sharper and have greater resources than others. They will get ahead of the general learning curve when it comes to nutrition, medications, vet procedures etc.... Until you say it is illegal, it is legal.
 

[HP]

\"I am talking about the kinds of accusations that are leveled against some trainers because almost their entire barn is running so well - though obviously Pletcher falls into that category.\"

Who are you talking about?  Be specific or please stop.

\"You obviously believe that TP is using all sorts of performance enhancers.\"

You are dense beyond belief.  I don\'t BELIEVE he is using all sorts of performance enhancers.  HE IS USING THEM, and some of them are ILLEGAL.  He\'s been caught REPEATEDLY.  You are DENSE!  If Pletcher jabbed a needle in your ass you STILL wouldn\'t believe it.   Wow.  Can you read?  It\'s just unreal.    

\"Do you have a list of everything he is using?\"

No.

\"Are you sure they are all on the list of banned substances?\"

No.

\"I think perhaps many trainers are using things that haven\'t even been identified yet let alone put on a list of banned substances! That\'s why the default has to be everything is illegal except X, Y, Z..... There will always be some people that are a little sharper and have greater resources than others. They will get ahead of the general learning curve when it comes to nutrition, medications, vet procedures etc.... Until you say it is illegal, it is legal.\"

Why are you making this point and what does it have to do with what\'s on this thread?  Until you say it is illegal, it is legal.  Who does this apply to?  You just hijack the thread and start blabbering nonsense.  And then you cry that you get grief for posting this crap.  

From now on, I\'m just going to skip your name on the page, so unless you change your name from \"classhandicapper\" you won\'t have to worry about any more responses from this corner.  

Keep cashing with your great insights on lightly raced high quality stock.  

HP

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

classhandicapper Wrote:
liked it better that way .
>
> How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs.
> legal performance enhancer unless something is
> listed as one or the other?

This is really quite easy. ANY substance that is administered to a horse to  enhance its performance is illegal. Its really that simple. The substance may or may not be on the prohibited/allowed list yet, but it will be. Obviously, this does not include Beer or eggs or whatever nutritional insights a trainer thinks he has. Flax instead of hay for instance. If anyone thinks that Todd Pletcher has stumbled onto the horse dinner panacea when other trainers are blissfully ignorant, more power to them. If he has stumbled onto it however he employs the same vet whose other well known client/trainers are also onto the \"Power Dinner\".

HP,

Do you have some personal problem that doesn\'t allow you discuss things in a mature way?

In case you were unaware of it, there are legal medications for people that get hostile for no apparent reason. No post discussion testing is required.

I was responding to TGJB\'s post about performance enhancing drugs and tampering with a sporting event. Here's what he said.

"If you give a performance enhancing drug to a horse that can\'t be in his system naturally, you are by definition tampering with the event, since there is betting on it, and the public doesn\'t know what\'s going on. "

My obvious point has been that it is not always clear what a trainer or vet is giving or doing to their horses in order to get them to perform better.  There are many things that could fall into grey areas that enhance performance.

Read this carefully!

I am saying that we need an "APPROVED" list for all known drugs, all nutritional supplements, all other compounds and all medical procedures.  If you have a complete approved list, everything that is not on that list is automatically illegal. THen there are no grey areas about what can or cannot be used or done with horses.  

We all know about the things that are already illegal. It's what we don't know that we need to have stiffer controls over.

If you weren't such a %$#%## all the time, you might have noticed that I was suggesting a way to enhance our ability to catch the cheaters. As long as there are grey areas and large amounts of money at stake, there will be people looking for any edge they can get away with. The limits must defined clearly.