Some Posts Are More Fun Than Others

[TGJB]

Those of you who were around here a few months ago might remember there was a bit of an uproar when the Ragozin camp tried to take credit for the success of Musique Toujours in the Sunshine Millions-- turned out they had nothing to do with it, as became apparent in several published reports.

So anyway, a couple of days ago a post by Len Friedman appeared on the Ragozin board:

\"Lava Man burns up Hol.

Congratulations again to longtime SHEET user Doug O\'Neill on Lava Man;s crushing 8 3/4 lengths win (minus 1/4!) in the $750,000 Gr I Hol Gold Cup. Claimed for $50,000 off of promising SHEET numbers last summer as a three year old, Lava Man is the second O\'Neill claim in recent years to hit the jackpot...\"

This was followed in later posts by the posting of the Ragozin \"SHEET\",  a discussion of the pattern on Ragozin at the time of the claim, how he fitted in the Gold Cup, etc.


So yesterday I\'m reading the DRF, and I see an article where it says that one of the owners, Steve Kenly, is the one who decides on the claims, after he \"pores over published material to narrow potential claims\".

Hmmm... Steve Kenly, Steve Kenly... wait a minute. Could it be the same Steve Kenly who has been getting our data since back when it was hand written? Did he really switch to Ragozin? I sent an e-mail congratulating him, telling him Friedman was taking credit, and asking if it was true. His e-mail response, which I post with his permission:

\"Thank you first of all, and you should know from my use with Thoro-Graph over the last decade that I DO NOT read the Ragozin sheets. It is funny how many people take credit when a horse gets good. I am 100% responsible for claiming Lava Man with the use of Thoro-Graph along with the Racing Form, videos replay and years of watching horses I came to the determination to claim Lava Man.

In the interviews after the race I said I used Thoro-Graph as a tool when I considered claiming LM. Truth be told I have looked at Rags over the years when someone around me has them and I personally cannot make heads or tails of his numbers.

With the blessing of the racing gods, I hope we can keep this horse going and I\'m sure there will be a chance for me to more emphatically set the record straight so Thoro-Graph can get some credit and not Rags\".


Thank you, Steve. Congratulations.

[kev]

Any of these you can or can\'t prove either??
\"May 2, 2005 - Sis City (from the Thoroughbred Times)
\"It wasn\'t me who even picked her out of that claiming race,\" Dutrow admitted. \"I have a [Ragozin] Sheets guy who told me about her. He said that she run\'s fast and she\'s bred to go long, so there was a lot of upside to claiming her for $50,000. Even if she\'s not as good as we thought, then she\'s still worth $35,000, so why not take a shot? Now she\'s a Grade I winner and a great broodmare prospect.\"
January 31, 2005 - Sheets User places 2nd in the Orleans World Series Handicapping Contest.
Congratulations to longtime Sheets customer Paul Kasselman on his second place finish in the Orleans World Series handicapping contest. Job well done!
January 31, 2005 - Sheets customer wins Million Dollar Ocala Breeders Classic with Musique Toujors
Congrats to Sheets customer John Sadler on his upset victory in the million dollar Ocala Breeders Classic. John claimed Musique Toujors off the Sheets last year for only $40,000. This is his second $40,000 claim that has won a Grade One race. Job well done!
January 3, 2005 -  THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING. 2004 was another banner year for trainers and owners using the SHEETS.
Seven of the top fifteen and eighteen of the top one hundred trainers in money earned were SHEET customers and for the second straight year SHEET trainers ranked 1-2-3.
Five of the top fifteen and 14 of the top one hundred owners in money earned were SHEET customers, including the leading woman owner, Maggi Moss, who ranked number thirty.
In addition two of the top fifteen jockeys in money earned were SHEET customers.
We congratulate them all and are happy to be a part of their very successful year in racing.
September 1, 2004 - Contest Winners
Jared Hutt won the Freehold contest three Saturdays ago, and his father, Bob Hutt won the $30,000 handicapping contest at Monmouth this past weekend. Both are devout Ragozin Sheet handicappers and we wish them well as they go forward in the \"big contests\" coming up. Job well done by a classy father and son.
August 9, 200 - Big Weekend for The Sheets! -
Saturday was a super day for SHEETS trainers and owners. First, Bwana Charlie, trained by Steve Asmussen and managed perfectly by his assistant Scott blasi, win the Amsterdam at Saratoga. Then, Roses In May wins the Whitney. Roses In May is owned by Ken \"pic six king\" Ramsey and trained by Dale Romans, both Sheet clients. And finally, Herculated, trained by Mike Stidham, wins the Sea O\'Erin stake at Arlington Park. Congratulations to all.
July 7, 2004 - Churchill Downs Leaders -
At the recently concluded Churchill Downs spring meet, Ken Ramsey won his nineth consecutive owners title at the track. The trainers battle came down to the wire, and Steve Asmussen edged out Dale Romans and Tom Amoss. All of the above are Ragozin Sheet customers. Job well done!
June 5, 2004 - Belmont Stakes Notebook (NY Post: 6/5/04)
Sizing up the opposition, Servis said he thinks this is a \"very good group\" of 3-year-olds.
\"one of the biggest tools I use in my training and handicapping is the Ragozin [speed-rating] Sheets,\" he said. \"I\'ve compared them to last year\'s, and I thought this was a much better crop. With that being said, they seem to be a little erratic [running] big numbers and then bouncing off that.
\"The thing I like so much about my horse is that his numbers have been very steady. He hasn\'t had one blowout race. Even in the Preakness, there wasn\'t a big change. When you get that big change, you worry about the bounce theory.\"
May 01, 2004 - Bonita Springs Sheet player hits superfecta for $41,380.20 in 2004 Kentucky Derby-
Part-time Bonita Springs resident Sammy Wayson hit the superfecta — correctly picking the top four finishers — in Saturday's Kentucky Derby to win $41,380.20.
Wayson credited his success to the use of handicapping sheets written by New York's Len Ragozin. "I wouldn't go to the track without them. I'd be blindfolded."
February 12, 2004 - A customer cashed this race last Sunday (02/07): Win $61.40, 1$ Exacta - $209.70; 1$ Trifecta - $1,539; 1$ Super - $18,375. Click here to see the Sheets for this race.
February 07, 2004 - Eclipse Award winner Jerry Bailey called Anderson \"the best agent I\'ve ever had.\" \"Ron uses the Ragozin Numbers system better than anyone else,\" Bailey said. \"He can determine 95% of the time when a horse will or will not run his A race. He doesn\'t ask me a whole lot to choose between horses, and I like that. It\'s one of the things I don\'t want to get involved in.\"
January 02, 2004 - Sheet Trainers, Jockeys lead the way: 2003 was another banner year for trainers and jockeys using the SHEETS. The top jockey, once again, and the 11th in money won were guided by longtime SHEET using agents Ron Anderson and Lenny Pike, respectively
12 of the top 50 trainers, including the top 3 and 4 of the top 10, used SHEETS regularly to enhance their winning ways.
We are pround that these top professionals use our numbers to help manage their successful operations and we congratulate them all.
December 01, 2003 - Congratulations to super jockey agent and Sheet user Ron Anderson, on Jerry Bailey\'s new record for stakes wins in a single season. (70 stakes and counting).
November 30, 2003 - Congratulations to Sheet user Jerry Crawford on Halory Leigh\'s 4 length win on November 30 at TP in the $50,000 Holiday Inaugural Stakes. After being claimed late spring for $80,000 on the advice of The Sheets office, Halory Leigh had won two CD allowance races and finished third once, and fourth twice (including The GR 1 Alabama) in her previous stakes tries, and has now earned about twice her purchase price and is looking for more-- we hope.
November 29, 2003 - O\'Neill trained Fleetstreet Dancer claimed off the sheets in 2002. Fleetstreet Dancer, under jockey Jon Court at odds of 48-1, shocked favorite Admire Don to win the $2-Million Japan Cup Dirt by a nose at a drenched Tokyo race course on Saturday.
November 5, 2003 - Doug O\'Neill eclipses Baffert\'s Oak Tree mark: Congratulations to Sheet customer Doug O\'Neill on breaking Bob Baffert\'s record for most victories by trainer at Santa Anita\'s Oak Tree meeting.
October 16, 2003 - Two of our sheet players hit the pick six (worth $320,000) at Keeneland on Thursday. Both players had it for a dollar each. Congratulations to both.
September 1, 2003 - Saratoga: Sheets customer (who wishes to remain anonymous), hits PIC 6 worth $666,000.
August 9, 2003 - Joe Sweedler\'s French Charmer turned in an impressive performance at Laurel Park to win the $144,500 John D. Schapiro Memorial Breeder\'s Cup Handicap on August 2. Trainer Benson had cross-entered French Charmer in the $75,000 Battlefield Stakes on August 3 at Monmouth but opted to ship out of town for the bigger purse.
     \"Any [Ragozin] sheets player had a bet on him today,\" said Benson... \"Joe told me \'Go for the $150,000. You
      can\'t lose.\' \"
August 9, 2003 - DASHBOARD DRUMMER VALIDATES PURCHASE-
The new owners, which include Len Friedman of the Ragozin Speed Sheets, were already excited by the numbers Dashboard Drummer posted in Iowa.
With Iwinski on board, the purchase from Paulette and Bob Pogue went through.
His first start for the new barn was a smashing success as Dashboard Drummer ($10.80) rallied from far back on the speed-favoring sloppy track to win by 2 1/2 lengths over Deputy Storm, the 7-10 favorite.
August 2, 2003 - Congratulations to Sheets handicappers Bobby Brendler and Ken Daniels for their 2nd place finish in the Bally\'s Summer Stakes IV Contest, qualifying them for the NTRA Handicapping Championship to be held at Bally\'s in January 2004
June 25, 2003 - A Ragozin Sheets customer (who wishes to remain anonymous), was the sole winner of the one million plus pic 6 at CD. Congrats and job well done!
June 6, 2003 - At the just concluded Churchill meet, the top three trainers are all customers of the Sheets. Congrats to all three.
May 03, 2003 - Sheet player hits Derby day pic 6 @ CD: For an investment of just $288, he collected over $400,000
May 2003 - Frankel and the Bounce Theory - by Andrew Beyer
Jan 2003 - Our very own Len Friedman won the Suncoast Challenge handicapping contest (worth over $100,000).
2002 - We had 10 trainers in the top 50 trainers in by earnings. (2 of the 10 were in the top 10 by earnings).
2002 - We had 2 jockeys in the top 10 by earnings, as well as the leading rider in the nation. \"

[TGJB]

Kev-- taking your question literally, I do know Sis City was claimed using Ragozin, and I do know Anderson uses Ragozin.

I also know that the claim of involvement with Musique Toujours, which you repeated, was NOT true, just as the claim of involvement with Lava Man was not. Which brings us to the point-- on the record, it would be silly to take the claims of success that you mention (or any others of that outfit) at face value. It\'s only a fluke that they were caught lying in the cases we know about, one in published reports, the other because the real hero is a customer of ours-- there is no way to know how many of the other \"successes\" are not true.

A lot of horsemen do use Ragozin, as I have pointed out before, because they are charged virtually nothing (like, maybe 5% of what we charge)-- horsemen pay Ragozin a lot closer to what they pay the DRF annually than to what they pay us, and ALL the top horsemen use the DRF, so big deal. In fact, if you get a chance, ask Ron Anderson what he pays Ragozin-- he\'s not a bad guy, for a jock agent. Work out what that amount is in percentage terms, relative to what Bailey earns (a tiny fraction of 1%).

On the contest/handicapper front, comparison is silly, considering that the last 3 NTRA National winners were our guys, and how well our guys have done in other big tournaments.

[kev]

That\'s true about the contest, even when they showed it on ESPN they show your product a few times. Now the new DRF book that just came out talking to the big hitters in the game, there were a couple that said they use Ragozin also. It\'s funny how the two company\'s players might go back and forth about whose better or whatever. But we all fight the battle with the non-sheet users trying to knock what we use. This from the book SIX SECRETS OF SUCCESSFUL BETTORS, this is on the topic of the sheets, by Steven Crist...\"Len Ragozin and Jerry Brown are extremely smart guys and the take their work very seriously and are true believers in their methodology. I just personally don\'t agree with them that you can arithmetically quantify the impact of things like ground and weight. So to my mind they\'re distorting speed figures and then drawing conclusions about patterns emanating from those distorted figures.\"  That\'s some funny stuff there.

[davidrex]

     Glad I\'m not the only one who doesn\'t understand the wide variances of that other product...of course brown gives the same # all the time to each horse!
     Little \'s\' after the sloppy notation....thought you\'d slip that by an \"ulta coker\" like me?

                                     PARTYpokerON!

[TGJB]

Kev-- it\'s one thing to \"go back and forth\", or discuss differences in methodology, as I do here often. It is quite another to play games with the truth in an effort to create business-- especially since for those who don\'t know how to make figures themselves, credibilty is a very big issue.

I want to point out that I\'m taking it easy on them, considering the number of examples I could bring up. But as I said a while back, as far as we can tell we outsell them by a significant multiple on-line, so I\'m preaching to the choir here.

By the way, there are a number of locations where both we and Ragozin sell hardcopy. Or did-- they have pulled out of two of them, and it wasn\'t because they were selling well.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

lmao

He seems like a nice horse, but there was little in that race.

[kev]

You all might out sell them on-line and that\'s do to the way you all run things, like create-a-card for $25 that\'s a deal. You all also run tv ads. If they were hurting you think they would come with some things like this, then again they might sell very well hardcopys, maybe they have older people using there data.

[TGJB]

Kev-- Well, many of those who still use their data are definitely older. And I will credit you for effort-- it must have taken a while to type that first post, and even longer to compile the \"info\".

But if Ragozin is selling well, you have to wonder why they are charging $5 for seminars AFTER the card has been run...

[kev]

That\'s true about the $5, but I don\'t think their going to get rich off that. The thing is people who buy on-line will pay for it. Maybe most will be buying it before ( when the cost is $20 ). Also will they see the light, like you guys have been great at hearing what your customers say. It only takes that little extra step to go and turn things around.

[marcus]

IT\'S DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE THAT A POSITIVE CHANGE CAN TAKE PLACE AT RAGOZIN RIGHT NOW GIVEN THE SITUATION AND PERSONALITIES INVOLVED OVER THERE . WHATEVER MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT BE GOING AT THAT COMPANY ( RAGS ) SEEMS TO BE WELL WITHIN THEIR COMFORT ZONE .