Nice Letter to Editor TGJB

>Oh yeah. I left one out. Ghostzapper was paying $9.00 ON THE TURN. Think he paid all of $6.00.<

I cashed that ticket also. I recall him getting bet heavy late also, but is this correct.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I know who you are MO...lol

I think the risk of it happening is enough to take precaution. And Jerry is right, in this day and age past posting has various \"angles\" for attempted exploitation by the dishonest, hacking among them. I\'m only a tote board scanner. I don\'t watch it, though I\'ve been the victim of late odds changes. Many of my bets are trifectas and supers so I may not be as aware of \"late\" money. Late money has always impacted the probables and I\'m going back pre simulcast. You guys may have more inside information than I do.  Regardless the ideas are precautions that are not overly expensive or unreasonable to implement. They should be done in the name of integrity.

[razzle]

TGJB, thanks for your efforts in getting this out.  The points you emphasize are the ones most of us have the greatest concern about as players.  raz

[marcus]

Jerry - Great letter to the editor though if NYRA is really serious , a plan akin to your\'s get\'s implemented in NY before racing leaves The Big A this spring .

 As I am home today w/ flu and snowed in I\'m brainstorming thinking about the milkshake + rebater calamity .

 As you well know , more than public relations magic will be requiered to remediate the situation and it needs to happen on a state to state basis before heavy handed Feds get involved  .

 Also a distinction needs to be made between a horse that simply flunks a post race test from the more elaborate race fixing sceams and then to apply balanced corrective measures .

In the area of oversite I would like to see a group like United Pegasus Foundation get involved to ensure new policies are functioning properly and are subsequently evaluated .



Post Edited (01-23-05 19:17)

[Silver Charm]

>4. Make the trainer and vet fill out and sign off on a form with every entry, listing everything that has been put into the horse over the last seven days.

This may be the best one in my book. I would hope that after this years Ky Derby Bob Costas during the post race Interview on National Television asks the winning connections, \"Do you realize the following SIX performance enhancing medications your Horse used today, he will not be allowed to use at Belmont Park if he is shooting for the Triple Crown? And tell America was your horse given a Milkshake before todays race?

Only then will Kentucky officials realize how out of sync they are with the rest of the industry and the betting public.

The Post Race betting is probably not as widespread as most think but it only has to happen once like the \"Fix-Six\" to give the whole industry another black and eye and space in the sports section for all the wrong reasons. I\'m certainly not saying this doesn\'t go on, who knows maybe once a week. But not everytime a horses odds drop. Now in the case of Monarchos a few years ago in the Florida Derby anybody who doesn\'t think the $200,000 that was bet on him at the last second wasn\'t placed at the eighth pole is a fool. Lucky for racing that one wasn\'t exposed. A big fix on a major three year old Derby Prep or maybe the Derby itself. Its coming, who knows maybe soon considering how loose all the controls are.

The Rebate issue is really a non-issue regarding the Drug Debate. And yet almost immediately after the scandal broke it became an Organized Crime Rebate Story. When in reality it was a case of a drugged horse juiced so he couldn\'t lose. Didn\'t matter where and how these guy made their bets.

I thought the column in the Sunday Form by DRF ED-in-Chief Steve Christ(sic) was outstanding. Maybe it was a recovery after biting on the \"Mob Rebaters Fix Race\" story like all the other media outlets did. To their credit DRF has been covering the Drug issue in more detail and too their credit they are also pointing out some trainers who have been accused, who are still winning at solid clips. How those trainers do over a long period of time, remains to be seen. My feeling is they will see their percentages go down. Some guys may see theirs cut in half. But hey 15% is almost normal.

[ezgoer89]

There has been much noise made about bets made after post time not only on this forum, but in other discussion groups, industry articles, etc.  While in theory it sounds simple, I personally have not been exposed to a technical explanation of how this could occur. The only time I have seen something in writing was the Pick 6 scam, which we know involved inside help.

Assuming that no inside help exists, how does someone place a wager after the pools are supposedly locked? Aren\'t all bets timestamped? How could a bet, made even one second after the pool is locked, be included in the pool itself?

If there was some concernt that a computer had actually been hacked to change timestamps (this would have to be done at the users terminal, ISP/provider, wagering hub, and host track), then why wouldn\'t an investigation ensue?  If the Monarchos case was so obvious, wouldn\'t someone do a check and trace back large bets made very close to post time?

Couldn\'t an answer be more likely that the technology employed by large bettors is more sophisticated than that used by the wagering hubs and racetracks?  If these large bettors can run algorithms to find the best possible wagers and four, five, or even six figure bets are made just seconds to post, it is no surprise that in a race the odds change on the turn or at the wire. Don\'t the odds update only every 30 seconds? How long does it take for a wager to go from my computer to a hub, on to the track, then added to the pool to calculate odds? What if there was an odds update at 25 seconds after post, but the big wagers were not yet calculate and 30 seconds later the big numbers were added to the pool? You\'d have odds changes almost a minute into the race.

While I can\'t dispute that there could be a way to hack a system and make bets subsequent to post time, I have not seen any hard core evidence to support the claim.

I\'d like to see examples at a particular track of the win or exacta pool at post time, during a race, and after a race.  I\'d also need to see the average dollar change of the pools on a race by race basis, then some inordinate change on a suspicious race.
Then investigate that susupicous race and show me the time, amounts and type of bets made; the hub that processed the bets, and the online service that took the bets from the bettor.  This wouldn\'t be tough to do, if a track or agency took the situation seriously.

[TGJB]

I appreciate all the kind words about my letter to the editor, and won\'t have time to respond to all the points you all have raised. I agree that Crist\'s column was excellent, and I want to encourage everyone not only to make their points here, but in the DRF and other venues. You can send a letter to the editor to editor@drf.com.

Bull, I think a trimmed down version of that post would make a great letter.

[Bull]

Thanks Jerry, I was thinking about turning that post into a letter, as well. Hopefully it inspires others to do the same.

-Brent

[Saddlecloth]

I thought for over a year now that NYRA cut off the pools from rebate shops with a minute to go, thus eliminating the algorithmic program from accomplishing its goal?

[JohnTChance]

Jerry, as has been noted... nice letter.

I can\'t wait for next Sunday\'s DRF where we\'ll hear rebuttals. From the tracks (too costly; lets study the problem first for six years)... the vets and the vet lobby (How dare you point the finger at us! We\'re nice guys! We don\'t do bad stuff)... the horsemen (too difficult to work with your horse not in \"your own\" barn. Etc.

[TGJB]

John-- That\'s exactly why it\'s important to flood them (and other publications) with letters from our side.

I\'m guessing not many remember this, but some years ago, before there was an NTRA, and while my friend Neil Cook was still editor of the DRF, some industry \"leaders\" in Lexington got together and thought that the thing to do was have a great big marketing plan, and pay for it by raising the takeout-- horseplayers would get to pay to help the breeders and racetracks. They hired a marketer/lobbyist, and they were pushing the plan in every publication they could.

Nobody said a word in opposition-- until I wrote a letter to DRF. The lobbyist came back at me, and I fired back again, this time joined by George White (Mandown of this site), former president of the Racing Times. The lobbyist came at us again, and we fired back again-- it got pretty heated, and he at one point accused me of threatening him (I didn\'t, I just said if he mentioned the idea to a horseplayer at a track he shouldn\'t stand within arm\'s reach). But the issues got a thorough (no pun intended) airing, and the rest of the industry finally took notice. The next week Nick Zito and others, some high profile, joined in with letters, and eventually the idea was dropped. It\'s a fair assumption that if we hadn\'t written the letters-- or if Neil hadn\'t been willing to run them-- the takeout would have been raised.

Look-- this game has always been very reluctant to change, due in large part to the apathy of horseplayers. You guys want change, do something about it. I kicked the door-- it\'s up to all the horseplayers who care to save the game, because for the most part the powers-that-be are clueless, don\'t care, and don\'t want to spend money. I kicked the door-- it\'s up to you guys to kick it down.