\"It wasn\'t Alydar who made that slimy insinuation about unethical activities by TG on this board, twice, it was you.\"

Let me apologize for realizing I din\'t want to get into an incessant dialogue with you about what I\'ve heard. If you want that stuff out in the open, so you can prove it is all bunk, you\'ll have to get it from Alydar, unless there are other volunteers.

I\'ve tried a few times, now I\'ll try one last time-- this is my final post on this topic.

I\'m not going to get into an interminable back and forth with you on what I\'ve heard. If you want that exchange, have it with Alydar, as I indicated yesterday. If you\'re that concerned with getting this stuff out in the open, he\'ll be happy to help you.

If you want to ban me for this, hey, ban me. I\'ve never been banned before and would find it to be an interesting novelty.

Related note (though I\'m not sure if it has any cred, given how \"slimy\" I am): I\'ve never heard a bad word uttered about Alan B, and enjoyed shooting the sh*t with him on the porch of the Springwater after the races about 11 and half months ago.

I\'m going to retire from this dialogue after this post. It\'s overlong, and if we\'re only through 3 of 124 questions that I find mildly interesting, I have no interest in typing out several hundred thousand words by the time we would get to 124 of 124.

\"He said ON THIS BOARD that he had worked for me\"

Sorry, I must have missed that one-- I wonder why it even came up. \'d bet a bunch of others who read this stuff not all that closely missed it, too. No problem with you, HP, but I think it\'s worth reminding the few that are following along what we\'ve got going on here-- current part-time employees and recent employees vouching for each other, attacking the competition, etc. It\'s meaningless stuff. No less meaningless if/when Ragozin employees do it, either.


\"You really want to split hairs over whether you are a really good friend, a good friend, or just a friend? You think my point depended on that?\"


No, I just don\'t like it when you\'re quantifying my friendships with people, is all. You\'ve never  met me.


\"The point is that you have information from an UNBIASED source about FACTUAL incidents of Ragozin employees lying and committing other bad acts towards us, NOT just bad mouthing us. You haven\'t answered my questions about your response to that yet. 4-- Yes, I would LOVE to hear the things that we have done that are similar or the equivalent, and where you got your information-- when I first started this board I made a point of saying one of my goals was to get that stuff out in the open.\"


I have second-hand information about low-level Ragozin employees acting unethically in Florida, nothing more-- this is the truth. I\'ve also heard equally credible allegations about the ethics of higher-level Thorograph employees. When I heard both of these sets of allegations, it\'s made me realized that if it were a war, and I had to make a choice between which of these two camps I\'d want in my trench, I\'d have no idea who to choose-- and so it has no effect on my customer loyalty. If you want specifics, give Alydar a day pass and he can go over it with you-- he\'s heard the same stuff, from what I gather. I really think it\'s fruitless, because you\'ll deny what I\'ve heard about TG and exacerbate the charges against Ragozin. It will prove nothing-- your responses to this stuff must be taken with a grain of salt by any rational human being.

\"As it happens I can\'t think of anyone other than Mandown and HP who has worked for this outfit and has posted, but I wouldn\'t out them if I did because it doesn\'t matter, except in the situations I mentioned.\"

I\'m glad you thought of at least one other since this post. I can\'t wait to see how many more there are out there...

\"On a quasi-related subject--what did you think of Friedman\'s post taking me (and my character) to task for allowing \"toady sickos\" to post \"slander and lies\" here?\"

A great way for me to exit this ugliness. I think that since he started the Sheets B-board,  Friedman has never gotten used to the criticism he\'s received from you, people who work for you, and those who enjoy picking on him for their own reasons, however just or unjust. I think that there probably is some ivory tower element of Friedman, making him not realize that guys like Tiznow should be much more heavily discouraged on his site from posting the way they do, making him not realize how haughty he can sometimes sound (I say \"sound\" and not \"be\" because I don\'t know the guy). I think there\'s clearly some similarities to your own personality when you\'re  allowing a toady sicko (accurate description, if there ever was one) like Silver Charm to post the sort of bullshit he posts to your site without calling him out on it consistently. Moreover, I think that Friedman and his employees are confused enough by the attacks on their own board that they\'re probably paranoid to the extent that they think you\'re directing all of this stuff, when you\'re probably not. Some of the childish behavior has of course originated/emanated from Ragozin loyalists, but that\'s at least partially spurred by these people being fed-up about the criticisms being tossed Ragozin/Friedman\'s way. Why ANYONE would feel this sort of loyalty to a brand of speed figures is well beyond me. Saying to a Brown or a Friedman \"you\'re the man!\" for anything less than an enormous score or a victory in a huge handicapping contest strikes me as bizarre behavior. I got this note on Monday from a sharp horse owner who uses sheets sparingly and is a wonderful judge of character:

\"Re: the neverending pissing contest between Rags/TG--after perusing both sites over the weekend, I must say that the whole us vs them thing that both perpetuate is the most monumental waste of time I have ever seen supposedly professional people engage in. I have virtually no respect for TGJB or Robespierre. These guys are utter and complete assholes who deserve to spend all day, every day, throwing acid at each other. The lack of insight or self-criticism, and the mendacity, is truly astonishing.\"

I\'m neither surprised with the conclusions he came to, nor could I even begin to craft a response to try to change his mind.

I\'m not sure if you really want to get into this, TGJB. You keep mentioning what I\'ve heard about Ragozin, and as I think back about it, I realize I\'ve heard things about the Ragozin operation AND the TG operation. The Ragozin information was relayed to me second-hand, but the TG information was relayed to me first-hand. Shall I relay these comments in their entirety?

Also: Reiterating one last time that I\'d like to hear an answer to the follow up questions about those being directly compensated by you posting on this and competitors\' site without acknowledging as much.

\"I will only add that anyone who thinks that JB\'s employer/employee relationship with Mandown has ANY influence over what Mandown posts or says does not know Mandown. I can vouch for this 1,000%.\"

HP-
1) Do you or have you ever had an employee/employer relationship with TGJB? Since you\'re doing some \"vouching,\" I thought I\'d ask.

TGJB-
I reject the characterization of my relationship with anyone I know strictly on e-mail as \"really good friends.\" I just don\'t think it\'s possible (for me, at least), to be \"really good friends\" with anyone who I\'ve never met in person.

Also: Are you going to answer my follow up question or not?

Also too: While I\'ve heard stories about Ragozin employees speaking poorly about TG, it\'s always been told within the context of there being a lot of justifiable anger towards TG by Ragozin employees. I don\'t know whether to believe this or not. Hearing a variety of sides of these stories has not cleared anything up.

\"Ragozin employees lying about me, and can give you specific information about their bad acts. Do you care? Does that affect their credibility with you?\"

I hesitate to respond to this, for a variety of reasons, but let\'s just say there are reportedly two sides to the story. It\'s so muddy that it\'s pretty impossible for me to take a side on it. I realize that\'s a less than satisfying answer, but the finger pointing is such that I find it impossible to view these issues in such a way that it would ruin anyone\'s credibility with me.

It doesn\'t help anyone\'s credibility with me, that\'s for sure.

The pairing up of the 5- in the Derby was somewhat important in reading TMW positively on Ragozin. The number at age 2 helped, too, giving some sense that future development was imminent. If you liked him on Derby Day (I did, more than Friedman) but couldn\'t really bet him because he was such an underlay, you were likely to like him more on Belmont Day. His line looked healthier than *any* horse in the field, just slower than the top 2. Either of whom a case could be made were bounce candidates, especially FC.

I didn\'t play the Belmont other than singling EM in multi-race wagers. But Friedman\'s read on this race was an easy one-- not hard to come up with on the numbers.

>If truly necessary I will address this when I have some free time,
 
Great, thanks.
 
>Who\'s the one with the bias?
 
I didn\'t think this discussion was about me.
 
>And if you want to play that game, are are you just an objective observer, or are you friends with any of the principals in this show?
 
Ok, I guess you\'ve changed this discussion, hopefully quite briefly, to being about me. I\'m not friends with anyone who works for Ragozin. I\'m not friends with anyone who works for Tgraph. I\'m friends with the writer of the 124 (or at least 3) questions. I do not benefit financially in any way if this writer succeeds in raising a variety of interesting questions about Tgraph/you, nor do I have any idea whether I\'ll even care about most of the questions he raises.
 
Ethically, I think, that\'s a better place to be than pretending like one is merely an observer when in fact one is being paid by Tgraph for other services rendered. If the writer of the 124 was in some way compensating me financially, that would be a different story. But he\'s not. In fact, we haven\'t ever even discussed these questions. I\'m merely responding to what I see.
 
Looking forward to you addressing the questions I\'ve raised. It\'s pretty creepy if/when anyone paid by Ragozin posts anonymously pretending to be something other than someone paid by Ragozin. If you want to make the argument that you are somehow more trustworthy or believable, I\'m hopeful you\'ll get any further Mandown-style revelations out of the way immediately.

JB,

I don;t want to get into most of this, but one part does bug me--

\"I\'m not going to out Mandown, but he has an affiliation with this company (does some work for us)\"

This is a weird one. This guy works for you (he is paid by Tgraph in some capacity for his work, so he benefits from Tgraph doing well), yet posts negative stuff about the competition on a board populated by your customers-- and he posts on the Ragozin board, too(?). By not acknowledging the professional affiliation, it\'s ethically crappy territory. Are there any other guys who you pay for their work who post on your site or others not acknowledging they work for Tgraph?

So does this mean you\'re responding to the three questions or not?

Are they related to figure making?

If so, I assume they are adversarial, and since Alydar is certainly wrong on whatever he is asking about, it would be interesting to see you once again squash the opposition.

Regarding handicapping contests:
Try the Orleans tournament(s). Reportedly, Friedman likes to play in those. It may not be the perfect format, but with superior figures and skills, you should have little trouble dispatching of him, as most others there do.

\"I was reading Bloodhorse\'s post-KY Derby coverage (print edition, I don\'t think they have this piece on their website)\"

http://bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=15902\">

>Were you at the press party at the ballpark?

My group of pals who I attend the TC races with (only one of whom currently works in racing) far pre-dates my involvement in the business. I separate the Crown and work as much as possible, so unless I could have gotten a dozen guys into the press party, I wasn\'t going.

>Did you or the TG guy pick up the lunch check?

I did. But I\'m angling for him to buy me dinner at Sperry\'s next out.

I just had lunch with a longtime TG customer and we spent some time chuckling about how similarly TGJB and I (Ragozin customer) felt about Peace Rules (a lock on Saturday, we concurred), and how much more Midway Road\'s Ragozin line looked like a Thoro-Graph line (in his last, a perfect pair up of his 2-yr-old top on Ragozin), and how much debatable(more typical of Ragozin lines) the top looked on T-graph-- a 3 point top, or so I\'ve been told. Probably an easier use on Ragozin, but a must-use on either, for certain.

I was with Ragozin customers in Baltimore who hit the race nicely, and the T-graph customer I lunched with today hit it, too, as I suspect many other T-graph customers did. Kudos to those who were less stubborn than I about beating the Derby winner.

Despite my strong negative feelings about some of TGJB\'s marketing efforts on his competitor\'s website (and I\'m well aware of his defenses of them), I gotta say, I feel compelled to offer up kudos when they are overdue, and in one way they are overdue in this suddenly very enjoyable season of Triple Crown pursuit--

I was reading Bloodhorse\'s post-KY Derby coverage (print edition, I don\'t think they have this piece on their website) last week, and the lengthy piece on Distorted Humor featured WinStar\'s Rich Decker giving Jerry B. some serious credit for tagging Distorted H. as a future stallion prospect for them, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Now, I\'m sure many future stallions are purchased using a wide variety of methodologies that you or I might find questionable, but in this case, what happened was simple and beautiful. TGJB saw a horse who was fast on his numbers with the sort of breeding that he thought made him intriguing. Flash forward a few years later, and this stallion has become one of a very few to sire a KY Derby winner in his first crop, and now Funny Cide has a reasonable shot of closing the deal (not with my money on him, mind you, but he\'s certainly got a shot).

As one who has attended the last 10 Triple Crown races consecutively, as well as the last dozen KY Derbies consecutively, I know how much these events mean to me-- the shimmering beauty of 150,000 in the house at Churchill Downs makes the Derby and the intoxicating hour that precedes it incredibly compelling, so much so that I vow to never miss it. The Preakness is more of a down and dirty affair, but it\'s a legitimate jewel nonetheless, especially for those of us who value spacing between efforts and are amazed when a Derby winner can put back to back efforts like those together. It\'s a nice time if you value crabcakes and Camden Yards, too.

And so I attend these races, glad to be associated just by being there. But in TGJB\'s case this year, the association is stronger than just being there-- by tagging Distorted Humor for WinStar, he\'s a little piece of the puzzle that is turning into a gorgeous piece of racing history. I\'m sure you\'re proud, Jerry, and you damn well should be. Congratulations.

I could be wrong about this, but isn\'t this a faster number for the Derby winner than some famous Derby winners past? For example, Spend A Buck\'s raw time was 2:00:20, and his Tgraph number was a 3.25.

Was the track on Kentucky Derby Day this year that much slower than in Spend A Buck\'s year?

I guess it did work after all, as they posted the Buddy Gil sprint numbers.

Horses who were within 1 point of their top in that race on Ragozin- 4

Horses who had tops of 3 points or more- 2. One was Buddy Gil, the other was a 3-yr-old debuter who figured to run nicely with natural development.

Horses who ran numbers 3 points or more off their top- 3

Looks pretty sane to me...