Victor Espinoza reported on social media (take that for what it\'s worth) that AP will race at Del Mar this summer, which I\'m assuming means that the Pacific Classic is his ultimate goal. Would be cool if Chrome were in that race too though that is perhaps very unlikely, but I can\'t ever remember two derby winners squaring off; can any of you all remember that happening (I\'m sure it has)? Bad news for east coast fans though--we\'ll probably never see the Pharoah again! What surprised me is just how easy his Belmont win was, that and how thoroughly he dominated his 3 year old rivals; in three races only Frosted ever got close to him with ground loss factored into the derby. We\'ll likely never see another like this one the rest of our lives.
Unbridled and Strike The Gold squared off in the 91 BC Classic.
Ferdinand and Alysheba in 87 Classic.
Bid and Affirmed at some point.
Affirmed and Slew at some point. Jockey Club Gold Cup?
Agastache Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unbridled and Strike The Gold squared off in the
> 91 BC Classic.
>
> Ferdinand and Alysheba in 87 Classic.
>
> Bid and Affirmed at some point.
>
> Affirmed and Slew at some point. Jockey Club Gold
> Cup?
Secretariat and Riva Ridge
Dana-- we\'ve seen others like this in our lives.
Winning the TC is not primarily about ability, not even ability relative to the other 3yos of that crop. Both Smarty and Rachel were at least as good, and better relative to their crops. Winning the TC is about the ability to run three big races in five weeks.
And almost nobody can train horses to do that, except one guy. And he isn\'t getting nearly enough credit here. Baffert has been in this spot four times, and got the horse to run big three times, even when they lost. The other one (War Emblem) he picked up just three weeks before the Derby.
I mean, since the last TC winner, how many other horses have run well in all three, forgetting about winning the TC? Victory Gallop did, and probably some others, but not many.
Lots have run well in two. Baffert is clearly the best at getting three.
\"Baffert is clearly the best at getting three\"
Cali people, even those who despise him, say Baffy micromanages every minute detail of his horses training/feed et al.During TC series Zayat blurted out about Baffy being \"genius\" with things he does with horses which Zayat did not see any of his other trainers do.Tough to swallow that as there is only so much you can do with a horse,legally.
Would not bet that AP has run his fastest race yet.
Dana666 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AP will race at Del
> Mar this summer, which I\'m assuming means that the
> Pacific Classic is his ultimate goal. Would be
> cool if Chrome were in that race too though that
> is perhaps very unlikely,
First, Horse of the half Year Chrome will have to overcome some \"Dumbass\" mismanagement
but I can\'t ever remember two derby winners squaring off; can any
> of you all remember that happening (I\'m sure it has)?
TRIPLE CROWN winners Affirmed and Seattle Slew faced each other at least twice.
Bad news for east coast fans though--we\'ll
> probably never see the Pharoah again!\"
Im about as \"far East\" as one can be, and all of AP\'s races have been shown at Living Room Downs. Hopefully he will run again.
\"Hopefully he will run again\"
...if he sneezes, he\'ll be retired.
Given that different people own his breeding and racing rights, seems to me there\'s a conflict of interest...
Great points by TGJB and Mike about Baffert.
Sometimes we compliment one person by denigrating another, which is wrong, but I am going to anyway.
Baffert likes to give his horses rest between races, like most other trainers, but he has accepted the triple crown is different and adapted his style accordingly and been extremely successful with it.
Pletcher refuses to adapt his training style, skips the preakness every single year that he can, and has a horrendous record in 2 of the 3 legs of the triple crown.
It doesn\'t mean Pletcher isn\'t a good trainer, how could I argue he isn\'t, but he isnt near the trainer Baffert is, IMO.
The analogy I would draw is george Thompson sr, the Georgetown coach, and Coach k at duke. Thompson could only recruit people that fit his system. Some people called it racist, I won\'t. But he only recruited an athletic profile, no pure shooters. He was a good coach. Very good.
Coach K adapted his game, even to the point of accepting \"ome and dones\", because the game dictated that he change.
Pletcher will likely continue to be a triple crown disaster, while Baffert flourishes.
I also thought Baffert did a great job of checking his ego, never taking credit, and being extremely magnanimous.
Kudos to him and the horse.
Maybe next time I will be smart enough to bet a horse like this, but I doubt it..
Rob
JB,
Would not be surprised if there isn\'t a clause stating that if AP gets beat, he must be retired.I know that clause did exist with other syndicated horses that were still racing
Mike
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"Hopefully he will run again\"
>
>
> ...if he sneezes, he\'ll be retired.
Not with Zayat controlling his racing this year and having 0% interest in his stud career (outside of a few breeding rights the likely contracted). Zayat has nothing to lose by running him as much as he can, but all to gain in any remaining kickers, purses, and attention.
As for never seeing another like him, I\'d beg to differ and think we\'ve seen recent 3yos as good if not better and a lot of better older horses. He still has some more races to make his mark, but he looks beatable right now, and despite winning the TC, I don\'t feel yet that I\'m witnessing a great.
TGJB you are right about Baffert and he deserves a world of credit, but I would say the biggest difference this year is the five and a half month break AP had vs. the others. There have been lots of experiments with spacing, running fewer preps, etc., but that long break looks like the really distinguishing factor here. Sorry if others have gotten into this but I have not read through all 500 posts.
HP
ringato3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pletcher refuses to adapt his training style,
> skips the preakness every single year that he can,
> and has a horrendous record in 2 of the 3 legs of
> the triple crown.
My opinion,the biggest adjustment TAP would need to make is not putting so
much emphasis on dominating Saratoga 2YO racing.
> It doesn\'t mean Pletcher isn\'t a good trainer, how
> could I argue he isn\'t, but he isnt near the
> trainer Baffert is, IMO.
In my opinion, if I owned a good turf horse, neither Pletcher nor Baffert
would probably be my first choice to train it, but based on their records, I
would choose TAP over Baffert. Also it will be interesting to see Baffert work
with the speedy headcase Bayern.
> Pletcher will likely continue to be a triple crown
> disaster, while Baffert flourishes.
Obviously, the short list of Triple Crown trainers in the last 30 years is
Lukas and the man he would not give a job to, Bob Baffert. It is only part of
the story though. You would like to be able to see, over the long term or for
a particular year, the dollar value of all the racing stock entrusted to a
given trainer and the return the trainer is able to produce.
I wish you hadn\'t mentioned college hoops. At the beginning of the 2015- 2016
season, get a hold of the starting fives of the 200 or so Div 1 teams, and
determine what percentage of these 1000 or so players graduated American high
schools in four years and went directly to college.
Athletic scholarships should not be allocated to foreign students; there are
plenty of student athletes in the US who are worthy.
Save the scholarships for foreign students who can work on pressing worldwide
problems, such as marriage.
You\'re not thinking Royal Ascot is a good move for Chrome??? Yeah, I def. feel the same.
NormandyInvasion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As for never seeing another like him, I\'d beg to
> differ and think we\'ve seen recent 3yos as good if
> not better and a lot of better older horses. He
> still has some more races to make his mark, but he
> looks beatable right now, and despite winning the
> TC, I don\'t feel yet that I\'m witnessing a great.
You probably feel the same way about Mike Trout and Bryce Harper.
I don\'t need 10 more years to tell me these guys are great players, and will continue to be great.
He has been tremendous in every race of his career.
Don\'t worry JB, I won\'t engage in a back and forth like I did with....
This one has faced real competition, ran real figures, and hasn\'t been winning photos against softies.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This one has faced real competition, ran real
> figures, and hasn\'t been winning photos against
> softies.
You\'re testing me.
I ordered 4 seats for Pacific Classic day on Saturday night after the Belmont with the thought that it might be a possibility. Even sent an email encouraging Del Mar to shoot for getting American Pharoah to run in the Pacific Classic. Up to now I had only heard he might go in the Haskell and/or the Travers.
California could have American Pharoah, California Chrome, Firing Line, Shared Belief, Dortmund and Bayern here at that time. It would be a great race and they got rid of poly and will be back running on dirt this year.
I have not forgotten Texas Red could get another good price if he doesn\'t prep too too much.
may end up a brilliant dumb ass idea if ones considering breeding year round internationally.
He will taking on older horses out there unless they create some sort of Made for Pharoah 3YO race. The older horses out there are tin cans and anybody who saw the competition in the Met and even the Brooklyn probably saw enough to say \"theres no place like home.\"
Interesting if it is Del Mar its a brand new dirt surface. Last year was the rug. Baffert once got $25,000 to just put his feet on the ground at Monmouth Park and bring his horse with him. Is someone trying to start a bidding war?
Seriously with Mike Tabor, John Magnier, and Zayat involved, at this point whatever Victor says or thinks less than 48 hours after the finish is just pure talk. Or in this case a Tweet.....
Jerry-You and I are old enough to have seen this, but my point is we (who are about the same age) most likely will never see this kind of greatness ever again, though I hope we both live long enough to prove me wrong!
You\'re downplaying the significance of AP\'s accomplishments just a tad. I\'m not sure you want to compare the two you mentioned to AP either.
Only 7 horses in thoroughbred history, AP being the 7th, have won the triple crown after being crowned 2 year old champions. That\'s 7 out of the millions and millions of foals born every year since the 1800s.
As great as the totality of Rachel\'s career (she raced 19 times, I daresay AP will never get even close to 19 career starts), her claim to fame as a 2 year old was beating 5 female rivals in the Golden Rod Stakes (G-2)! You were one of the few people on planet earth who recognized the tremendous racehorse she would become! But as a 2 year old, it was all potential.
Smarty never ran as a 2 year old and sadly was completely crippled by the time the Belmont came about. Rachel ran in and won 1 leg of the triple crown, though one might argue convincingly she would have won the derby had she been given the chance. It\'s safe to say she would have beaten 50K claiming sort Mine that Bird as she did in the Preakness. But you honestly cannot compare either to AP at the same time in their careers.
I know AP is no friend to gamblers, namely no one is making a big score on odds-on runners, so the emotional attachment perhaps is lacking, I\'d be the first to admit that if I\'m being completely honest, but using whatever words we like, we are not going to capture the enormity of the greatness of this horse. When you run the last quarter of the Belmont Stakes faster than Secretariat, yeah, that\'s saying something.
\"Smarty never ran as a 2 year old\"
Smarty ran twice as a 2 year old
1-- Smarty did run as a 2yo.
2-- I\'m talking ability, not accomplishment. That discussion has taken place here before (Zenyatta and other horses with good records).
3-- Not that raw time, final fractions or pace are my thing, but Secretariat ran his first 6f a tad faster, leaving him a little less in the tank late.
You are correct. I should not attempt research in a bouncing vehicle with my old eyes. 2-2 as a two year old. But again he didn\'t win the triple crown which my point. It is near impossible to maintain that level of brilliance through your 3 year old campaign ending for now in a mole and a half race!
Gotta love auto correct. That last half a mole is a killer.i
I should NOT type in the car.
My point is just that I\'m saying carrying 2 year old brilliant speed all the way through to your three year old season ending with a WIN in a mile and a half race is the rare quality I meant to point out. That\'s what we\'re not likely to see again. Brilliant speed horses don\'t generally win the Belmont. It\'s amazing to me that he carried that speed as far as he did.
Rereading my post, I was also a little hard on Mine That Bird. Worse horses have probably won triple crown races, too .
Speaking of which, I suppose you saw Jake gave some horse named American Pharaoh a 4-. The devil is in the details.
Interesting! Great point.
Sad that AP will never face Shared Belief. I would have loved to see that race.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1-- Smarty did run as a 2yo.
>
> 2-- I\'m talking ability, not accomplishment. That
> discussion has taken place here before (Zenyatta
> and other horses with good records).
>
> 3-- Not that raw time, final fractions or pace are
> my thing, but Secretariat ran his first 6f a tad
> faster, leaving him a little less in the tank
> late.
I would say he ran a little faster early.Half in 46/1 mile in 134/1 Quarter pole 159 flat. I was there for it.Giving away my age, but something I will never forget.Still holding the 2.00 win ticket.
Yeah. Somehow people are still claiming-- publicly-- that Secretariat ran every quarter faster than the previous one, which is nonsense.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah. Somehow people are still claiming--
> publicly-- that Secretariat ran every quarter
> faster than the previous one, which is nonsense.
I thought he did that in the Derby, not the Belmont.
EDIT: Yeah, it looks like he did. It gets a little fuzzy in the middle of the race but a reasonable estimate (given that times were done in fifths, not hundreths) has Secretariat running his Derby quarters as 25, 24 1/5, 23 3/5, 23 2/5 & 23 1/5.
Another interesting tidbit. On track he paid $5.00. In NY OTB he paid $5.80 and $6.20 to place. New Yorkers looking to beat the favorite. What else is new?
http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1973/05/06/90942998.html?pageNumber=253
What I remember about the pace of the race is that there was an article that day (DRF?, Morning Telegraph?, NYT?) speculating on how Secretariat could lose. One of the scenarios was that he would run too fast early, for which scenario the article contained sample fractions. He ran faster than all of the fractions listed.
Baffert on American Pharoah strategy: \"Since Breeders Cup is in Kentucky, we will keep him on the East Coast.\"
Yes--just saw that on Twitter. I\'m guessing Haskell is next. Gives him 7 weeks to recover.
Good Luck,
Joe B
That would be awesome if true. Monmouth would be rocking!
How do you think Honor Code measures up against AP? I don\'t think Shug/Farish are looking at the Dirt Mile.
1987 BC Classic at Hollywood Park Ferdinand vs Alysheba with Durkin calling in his prime. It doesn\'t get any better in this old man\'s opinion! Those of us living in central KY are anxiously awaiting this years Breeders Cup. Maybe we\'ll have our own unforgettable Classic. My gut feeling is that the racing will be great but the house isn\'t big enough for the event. Imagine your favorite local bar hosting the Rolling Stones. That\'s my dilemma. I watched AP win the Belmont on a jumbotron standing right beside the new BC statue at Keeneland with a few hundred people. If he shows up on Halloween night I won\'t be able to get within 100 feet of that statue.
Coach