FELLOW EXPERTS
WITH A 4 TH IN THE BELMONT
AND A BREEDERS CUP RECORD IN 3 STARTS OF 0 WINS 1 2ND AND 2 OFF THE BOARD FINISHES
DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A HALL OF FAME RESUME?
MY OPINION IS NO.JERRY WHAT DO YOU THINK?
HOW does he stack up against other geldings of the modern era.
CIRCLEOFROSES Wrote:
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> FELLOW EXPERTS
> WITH A 4 TH IN THE BELMONT
> AND A BREEDERS CUP RECORD IN 3 STARTS OF 0 WINS 1
> 2ND AND 2 OFF THE BOARD FINISHES
> DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A HALL OF FAME RESUME?
> MY OPINION IS NO.JERRY WHAT DO YOU THINK?
> HOW does he stack up against other geldings of the
> modern era.
To be fair, he did win the SA Hcp 3 times.
If he makes Racing\'s HOF is he the only Hall of Famer to be owned or part owned
by a member of Baseball\'s HOF?
The fact that Dude was 4th in the Belmont is irrelevant. They apparently did
not hold it against Forego (the greatest gelding I\'ve ever seen race) that he
was off the board in Secretariat\'s Derby...
In his 3 wins he beat
Setsuko
Clubhouse Ride
Will Take Charge
Is that enough?to get in?
Even though GOD started in South Florida he certainly deserves to be in the Southern California Hall of Fame.
He has won eight (8) grade 1\'s. Striking at just under 50% in about 30 graded stakes races. He has only banked 6.5 million US $\'s. Not to mention beating Kettle Korn too many times to mention.
He outran Uncle Mo in one BC Classic only to be caught and beaten by Drosselmeyer who, I believe, is 1/1 in BC Classics and not headed to the HOF. Then, now suspected to be past his prime in March 2014, he beats the 2013 3 y/o colt of the year (Will Take Charge) and drubs the 2013 BC Classic winner (Mucho Macho Man) in the Santa Anita Derby.
It\'s not so much that he beat up on a bunch of lackluster SoCal campaigners as it is he beat all comers as long as they came to Southern California. He is versatile with a couple of running styles. 1) He can make the lead, run off and win or 2) he can get headed and run up the track.
Masterfully managed and the source of enormous fan appreciation and a bonanza of winning tickets why not? Who was more successful during his chapter of racing history and generation, Zenyatta? Who was consistently faster. Give him a footnote as a notoriously poor shipper.
I don\'t have a vote but if I did - YES on the 1st ballot! Right in there with John Henry.
CIRCLEOFROSES Wrote:
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> In his 3 wins he beat
> Setsuko
> Clubhouse Ride
> Will Take Charge
> Is that enough?to get in?
I am not going to dismiss Clubhouse Ride and Will Take Charge so easily; they
have both earned in excess of $1,000,000.
I will concede that Dude is probably a cut below the great geldings Kelso,
Forego and John Henry. Of more pressing concern to me is whether the gelding
Big Business (probably not HOF material but certainly in very good form) is a
single in Saturday\'s 4th at Belmont.
Maybe the Varick Street boys will post the Dude\'s graph, which should also be
in the Archives; then we can determine whether he belongs in the TG HOF, which
includes Ghostzapper and Commentator, but not Zenyatta.
richiebee Wrote:
>
> Of more pressing concern to
> me is whether the gelding
> Big Business (probably not HOF material but
> certainly in very good form) is a
> single in Saturday\'s 4th at Belmont.
A belated thank you for the indirect assist @KD on my trainer challenged winner on the 1st Saturday. Invariably when I get invested on the don\'t side I get reminded not to, especially when layoffs are involved.
For Instance Saratoga Snacks he was awfully close to Big Business in the John Morrissey Stakes (off a layoff). FWIW I rarely play horizontally, wouldn\'t it be prudent to include him. BB\'s running style seems to exacerbate his recent bout with seconditis. And the trainer angle, is Mr. Mott!
Whatever your choice I hope it is the winning one! Good Luck.
BB 5/7 lifetime at Bel (Snacks is 4/5). BB\'s last second was to Palace, a very hot
sprinter right now, another of his seconds was to Zivo...
Haven\'t looked at TGs yet; do not usually play P5 but NYRA throws one Sat which is
free of Maiden races.
Tavasco Wrote:
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> Even though GOD started in South Florida
> he certainly deserves to be in the
> Southern California Hall of Fame.
Important distinction: local HOF only.
I enjoyed watching him race in many local Grade 1 races. He was a very unusual runner -- he made $6.5 million and really could not pass another horse. That is essentially why he was retired according to Baffert. Hard to say he was common (he obviously wasn\'t).
TMW Wrote:
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> I enjoyed watching him race in many local Grade 1
> races. He was a very unusual runner -- he made
> $6.5 million and really could not pass another
> horse.
I was never on the Game bandwagon for the reason
you just stated -- he couldn\'t pass a horse. I
always thought I was watching just another issuance
of, say, Kiri\'s Clown or Polar Expedition.
Nothing \"unusual\" about SoCal horses with bloated
earnings numbers, IMO. Of course, *everything* is
better in California, so the big bucks are justified. :P
Depends on how you feel about Lava Man...
TGJB Wrote:
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> Depends on how you feel about Lava Man...
To be fair, GOD was a few jumps away from winning the BC Classic at Churchill Downs. Also got nailed on the line in the Clark Hdcp at CD. 1st and 2nd at CT in their big race. BTW Rick, he sat 3rd in that Clark Hdcp, took the lead at the stretch call, and got nailed at the wire by a pretty good horse. He could pass a horse, but with his running style he was usually on the lead.
Comparing him to Kiri\'s Clown and Polar Expedition? Really??
Lava Man did nothing away from California. GOD was competitive other places.
California horses often get criticized for not venturing away from California, yet few East based horses venture out this way to challenge them also.
I\'m not saying he\'s a HOF horse, but making him sound like he\'s just another decent horse isn\'t accurate.
I believe if Cougar II is in with this resume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar_II) the answer to put Dude in is a no brainer.
P-Dub Wrote:
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> Comparing him to Kiri\'s Clown and Polar
> Expedition? Really??
All three are Graded Stakes Winners, have over a
million in earnings, and did their very best
running / winning on the lead when left alone.
Close enough for this discussion, I think...
especially since we both believe Game On Dude
is not a HOF horse.
Rick B. Wrote:
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> P-Dub Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Comparing him to Kiri\'s Clown and Polar
> > Expedition? Really??
>
> All three are Graded Stakes Winners, have over a
> million in earnings, and did their very best
> running / winning on the lead when left alone.
>
> Close enough for this discussion, I think...
> especially since we both believe Game On Dude
> is not a HOF horse.
Name me the Graded Stakes races these 2 horses won. I looked but couldn\'t find anything.
I\'m guessing GOD has won better races than these 2, not to mention a narrow loss in the Classic.
Richie,
Apples and Oranges my friend!!!
13 grade 1 wins
3 time horse of the year
PLEASE!!!
Frank D.
Kiri\'s Clown - Sword Dancer G1 + multiple New Hampshire Hcps G3
Polar Expedition - Washington Park Futurity G2 +a couple G3\'s
Tavasco Wrote:
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> Kiri\'s Clown - Sword Dancer G1 + multiple New
> Hampshire Hcps G3
>
> Polar Expedition - Washington Park Futurity G2 +a
> couple G3\'s
Then these horses aren\'t in the same conversation if this is the best they\'ve done. And Rick was serious saying these horses are similar.
Thanks for the laugh.
P-Dub Wrote:
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> Tavasco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Kiri\'s Clown - Sword Dancer G1 + multiple New
> > Hampshire Hcps G3
> >
> > Polar Expedition - Washington Park Futurity G2
> +a
> > couple G3\'s
>
>
> Then these horses aren\'t in the same conversation
> if this is the best they\'ve done. And Rick was
> serious saying these horses are similar.
>
> Thanks for the laugh.
Baffert today \"...but it has gotten to the point where there is always some horse who is going to be sacrificed by running with him and forcing him into ridiculous fractions as was the case in the Pacific Classic.\"
The horse he refers to is 25-1 longshot Mystery Train who is also a 1-dimensional front runner and multiple graded stakes winner in Argentina including I believe a Grade 1 race.
Mystery Train can not pass a horse. Game On Dude couldn\'t either. Very good horse but not a great horse.
P-Dub Wrote:
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> Then these horses aren\'t in the same conversation
> if this is the best they\'ve done. And Rick was
> serious saying these horses are similar.
>
> Thanks for the laugh.
I said they were close enough for the conversation at
hand.
I don\'t want to start a riot here, so I will keep my
opinions about overrated SoCal Grade I races (and
mostly tomato can class local opponents) to myself.
Tavasco Wrote:
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> Polar Expedition - Washington Park Futurity G2 +a
> couple G3\'s
Polar Expedition also won the $600,000 Jim Beam Stakes
at Turfway, which at the time was paying more than the
Santa Anita Derby.
The Beam produced numerous Triple Crown race winners in
the early 90\'s (vs. one from SoCal: 1992 Belmont winner
A.P. Indy).
PE used the Jim Beam as a stepping stone to the Preakness
but he did not hit the board.
I don\'t have Game On Dude\'s lifetime PP\'s in front of me;
was he ever on the Triple Crown trail? And did he ever
win outside of his home state?
Frank:
I was just playing Devils\' Advocate with Circle of Roses. Comparing Dude to Forego
is not \"apples and oranges\". Its more like comparing a ping pong ball to a bowling
ball.
Strange, but to say that Forego was HOY three times almost understates his
accomplishments. He was HOY in the years 1974 -1976. He was also champion sprinter
in 1974 and champion older horse in 1977.
As to Dude, I think the Board has it right: A rather one dimensional runner who
stayed sound long enough to accumulate an impressive bankroll.
Don\'t know if these are in same class as Dude, guess it\'s debatable. 2 of my favs
Funny Cide: not in HOF
38 starts won 11 races (Derby, Preakness), second six times and third eight times;
earnings $3,529,412.
Da Hoss: not in HOF
20 starts, won 12 races (2 x BC) second 5 times and third twice.
earnings $1,931,558.
One of only six horses to win two Breeders\' Cup races
Only gelding to win two Breeders\' Cup races
Only horse to win two Breeders\' Cup races in non-consecutive years
World record for a 2 year old going 6 furlongs (1:07:1/5 )
this was posted on another board and Lava Man was brought up by Jerry.
Out of these 4 geldings do you think all 4 should be in?The last one I can think of in my time is Best Pal.Now Moreno is a gelding whose resume is building fast.I dont know what his resume will look when its done.Just really love the quality responses from hard core lovers of this sport.Peace.Let the discussion contine
Jerry
Could you post the sheets of Best Pal Lava Man Funny Cide Da Hoss and Game on Dude so we could who ran the fastest numbers.Second is there any way you could make figures for Forego.
How would Forego stack up numbers wise to these four
Thank You
Circle of Roses
...and Jerry, can you please make the figures for Dr.Fager also and post them.
Thanks,
Mike
When I get done with Citation.