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General Category => Ask the Experts => Topic started by: billk5300s on June 08, 2014, 07:45:00 AM

Title: When to toss?
Post by: billk5300s on June 08, 2014, 07:45:00 AM
Now that the dust is settling from the Belmont I\'d like to ask a question regarding when to toss a horse based on TG numbers.  Normally I line up the contenders and evaluate the likely winner based on trip and or track bias.  I realize that this is not an exact science, if it were we wouldn\'t have day jobs.  I\'ve been tossing horses that are greater than 3 points slower.  The rare exception would be lone speed on a speed biased oval.  I\'ve been bitten a lot by horses that get heavy play even though they may be 5 points slower at their best. What would be a good rule of thumb numbers wise to eliminate contenders?
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: jerry on June 08, 2014, 07:22:44 PM
The Belmont is a peculiar case with its own set of rules partly due to the distance and partly due to the spacing of the races leading up to it.

Rule of Thumb 1. The Belmont is generally not kind to horses coming out of the Preakness and is especially unkind to horses who run tops in the Preakness.

Rule of Thumb 2. Slower horses are not necessarily automatic tosses. Horses jump up in this race and usually at big prices. I like to find a horse who has a flat line and shows some improvement in his last race even if that race is 5 points slower than the others. Commissioner did it this weekend. There are plenty of others. Check out the archives.

Rule of Thumb 3. Expect the unexpected in this race and structure your bets accordingly. Birdshot works better than single shot.

Rule of Thumb 4. Bet against any triple crown candidate. The overlays are fantastic.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: joemama on June 09, 2014, 01:44:11 AM
Overlay in exacta was non existent.  That one got hammered at the windows. Rule of Thumb #5.  Never bet deep closers.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: johnnym on June 09, 2014, 06:20:47 AM
Afleet Alex
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: sekrah on June 09, 2014, 07:28:32 AM
I\'ll take the risk at missing 1 deep closing favorite every 15 years.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: jerry on June 09, 2014, 07:45:34 AM
There really aren\'t any deep closers in the Belmont anymore. The pace is so slow they\'re all bunched up.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: joemama on June 09, 2014, 07:52:02 AM
Well going into the race surely Commanding curve was considered to be a deep closer. Off the Kentucky Derby.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: smalltimer on June 09, 2014, 07:56:22 AM
he finished where in the Belmont?
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: jp702006 on June 09, 2014, 08:32:08 AM
Rule of thumb #6: Always use a Pletcher horse:)
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: jerry on June 09, 2014, 08:33:05 AM
I know. But the early fractions are so slow in the Belmont, unlike some Derbies and most Preaknesses, that the deep closers are right up on the pace. If they\'re not, it\'s probably just not their day.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: jerry on June 09, 2014, 08:35:51 AM
Wish I\'d had the brains to bet it. I keyed the 1, 4, 8 & 11 in triples. Didn\'t touch the exacta. Duh.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: Box on June 09, 2014, 08:45:02 AM
You could put 10 TG sheet guys in a room and get 10 different opinions at any given time. Stick to whats been good for you, sounds like you have a system. Regarding slower horses taking money....barring equipment/trainer/surface changes or young horses making second/third starts { can get big improvements those situations }; that\'s why we buy the numbers, let them beat you.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: joemama on June 09, 2014, 01:05:31 PM
I\'m just saying that those types of closers coming out of the KY derby generally speaking don\'t fair well on Belmont Stakes Day. E.G. golden soul
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: joemama on June 09, 2014, 01:07:07 PM
Yes and maybe rule 6a should be if Pletcher has 2 horses in bet them both.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: joemama on June 09, 2014, 01:09:06 PM
Stuff like that eats me up.  I won\'t even mention what I\'d have liked to do that would have cost me 54 bucks to get back over 3k.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: TGJB on June 09, 2014, 01:11:41 PM
Don\'t remember whether Colonial Affair came out of the Derby, but Victory Gallop definitely did.

The other thing is that when a horse is running his eyeballs out/so much better than his competition, they show more speed than usual, because they have a ton of energy. Don\'t remember their usual running styles but Point Given and Risen Star might fall into that category. It\'s hard to win by 15 if you\'re 10 back with a quarter to run.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: joemama on June 09, 2014, 01:17:54 PM
Commissioner had 5 in slop last out.  I figure he\'s got to get to a 2 or so to be in the picture.  He looked to be on the improve to me.  Factor in connections, Pletcher, Winstar and the horses breeding the horse starts to look bettable. Oh yeah Castellano on board also. Fast track also. Add it all up it makes sense.  Tough thing is wiring the field in the Belmont Stakes. That rarely happens.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: joemama on June 09, 2014, 01:23:40 PM
I\'m not going to say that a deep closer will not ever win but it is rare for the Belmont Stakes.  I just can\'t remember in past runnings many horses winning from far back.  Seems like it\'s doesn\'t happen often enough to bet on it.  Better to go with what historically works in the race and if you get beat by something that rarely happens then so be it.  In the long run you will be ahead.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: johnnym on June 09, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
Peltcher did say back in Jan that Commisioner was his Belmont horse.
That I think was the real reason Danza was a no show.
Title: Re: When to toss?
Post by: billk5300s on June 13, 2014, 07:55:39 AM
Thanks and I agree about letting slower highly bet horses beat me.  It had been happening more than normal so I was hoping for opinions such as you provided.  I thought that maybe my 5 point rule of thumb may have been too unforgiving.