Posted by One Who Knows on April 23, 2002 at 19:37:23:
I was reading all the messages comparing \'apples to oranges\' and i have a point to make. I think that if any message on this board criticizes this particular product and talks about the \'competition\' it has every right to be erased. There are many people in this society that make speed figures but it seems like only 1 other speed figure maker is the topic of debate here. If you don\'t like Ragozin figures, you don\'t have to buy them, its not too complicated a procedure. If you want to be critical of Ragozin and the way he makes his numbers, you have the option of making your own figures or buying someone else\'s.
It just seems that all these debates are trying to somehow \'prove\' that one figure maker is better than the other. All these debates aren\'t going to help you or anyone else make money at the races. If you know that one product is better than another thats something that you need to try and exploit at the windows instead of trying to exploit that on a message board.
That\'s fantastic Jim. HP
Geeeeze, what a bait and switch headline. The FTC should come after you!
bdhsheets, I thought this post completely captured the essence of Jerry Bitter and his incessant vendetta against his former employer - wish I had written it. :))
Who did you like today Jim? The races are almost over. You probably did great. HP
Boy do you not get it. The reason I let you say things like this and characterize my behavior is that I know that everyone else who comes here is a lot smarter than you, and followed the underlying argument you intentionally mischaracterize. We don\'t let you stay here DESPITE your behavior, we encourage you to post BECAUSE of it. I like letting everyone see the Raggie behavior I\'ve described over the years, but which can almost never be found on the record(although Friedman has recently taken a step out of the closet), and I like the idea that everytime you post Friedman and Jake(both of whom are a lot smarter than you)must be cringing.
Jim, there\'s an old poker adage- If you look around the table, and you can\'t figure out who the fish is, it\'s you.
Jerry,
My initial reason for posting here was to clear up some of the BS you were posting - at the time about the Gulfstream Seminar. You backed down from your lies and misrepresentations so I let it drop. I exposed you for what you are, a bitter, miserable person that is in desperate need of therapy.
I have stayed because I have been entertained by you and your lackey\'s attempts to discredit me and my intentions.
HP resorts to trying to goat me by insinuating I don\'t win at the track, Excitable Boy physically threatened me, you try to blast me for not posting how I will play the Derby in my analysis - yet each time I kick your butt. You have yet to come close to succeeding and I find the whole thing amusing. I hope you realize that while your blood pressure rises I\'m laughing my as* off at you.
In between I had some good, interesting conversation with a few TG players about the Derby. Some day you\'ll realize that there is a common thread between horseplayers and the Sheets vs. your knock-off product has very little to do with anything.
I didn\'t threaten you physically. I was/am challenging you to meet me at Churchill on Kentucky Derby day to our own personal handicapping contest. Select your winners however you choose. If I win (I mean when I win) you stop posting on this board. If I fail, name your price.
I\'m not insinuating anything. I\'m saying it flat out based on your posts. HP
Excitable Boy,
My apologies then, I never saw where you challenged me to this handicapping contest.
There is no agenda with my posting here - it is simply entertainment. I have never worked for Ragozin and never put down TG at the track. I have never even seen anyone use it in FL or KY. The sales are so miniscule in FL that he got kicked off of Calder for lack of them. Since he was let back on he still doesn\'t sell enough to pay for shipping.
I won\'t be going to Churchill for the Derby or I would take you up on your personal contest. I don\'t know what it would prove? That I\'m better than you on this one day? But I would do it for entertainment anyway.
Is this about money or for fun? You get so hyped up about JB\'s product because you play for fun?
It can be the Oaks day if you like. Derby Day should have a great mix with full fields and prices to be had.
You really come off as a raggie
:\"I don\'t know what it would prove? That I\'m better than you on this one day?\":
It proves that you don\'t put your money where your mouth is.
It proves that you won\'t pick pre-race.
It proves you want it both ways. You have a post race agenda \'oh I did not pick that one to win even though he was my first selection\'. \'I meant mine 3rd choice which I did not list this time\'.
And thank you still ignoring me.
Is this about money or for fun? You get so hyped up about JB\'s product because you play for fun?
It can be the Oaks day if you like. Derby Day should have a great mix with full fields and prices to be had.
You really come off as a raggie
:\"I don\'t know what it would prove? That I\'m better than you on this one day?\":
It proves that you don\'t put your money where your mouth is.
It proves that you won\'t pick pre-race.
It proves you want it both ways. You have a post race agenda \'oh I did not pick that one to win even though he was my first selection\'. \'I meant mine 3rd choice which I did not list this time\'.
And thank you for still ignoring me.
Thank you once again. Hey, listen- here\'s your chance to embarrass me. Tell everyone where to go to find the post where I \"Back down from the lies and misrepresentations.\" Not your characterization, my actual post.
I\'m going home now, but I\'ll be back in the office tomorrow to once again be the butt of your stinging wit. And you\'re right, it\'s clear you\'re not angry at all.
TGJB
Well Excitable Boy, that post was so nice you had to post it twice?
I thought since I mistook your asking me to meet you at CD for a threat I owed you another chance. But, since I don\'t live in KY the Oaks wouldn\'t be`any better.
I don\'t understand where you guys come off? I don\'t want anything both ways. You guys are making this Ragozin vs. TG, not me. I came here to correct Jerry\'s lies - I didn\'t ask for examples of differences in the numbers or juvenile contests.
I think you, Jerry Bitter, and HP should form a circle-jerk, that\'s all you are doing here. I do pity you guys - it\'s very embarrassing for TG and its operatives.
I\'m not bragging about how much I won on a specific race. I\'m not bragging about picks I\'ve made. I\'m not bragging about how Jerry\'s product is inferior to the Sheets. You guys are asking for this stuff and I just keep laughing.
Since I do find this amusing Jerry, I\'ll be your huckleberry.
You posted:
Author: TGJB
Date: 03-25-02 11:37
Jim,
You know, I almost was willing to let this go- but then I read it again, and you are just so disgustingly dishonest.
1- \"I am not currently, nor have I ever been, an employee of Ragozin.\" Yet, you claim to know our sales figures, the details regarding Rovine/Burke(which, as you know, resulted from Nebel\'s complaint), and parrot the party line regarding our supposed lack of financial health.
2- \"Your characterization of Nebel... is incorrect.\" He got barred for doing something dishonest. Straighten me out, and I don\'t mean splitting hairs about which track he got barred from.
3- \"I never said you were losing money on your promotion.\" No, you IMPLIED it, and said we did it out of desperation, which is a crock.
4- \"Check/Cash is the same thing as far as I\'m concerned.\" Then why bring it up? We both know why.
5- \"You should get off the kick that you are trying to do something beneficial for Gulfstream and their patrons.\" I\'m running a business, and as such recognize that giving value to the track, my customers, and potential customers, makes them all want to do business with me. I don\'t believe in charging people to learn how to use a commercial product. As such, the seminars become events that are good promotions for the tracks, and ultimately for us.
6- \"Just be honest- I know I would certainly respect you a whole lot more. As it is...\" You guys wonder why I\'m as angry at the Ragozin operation as I am? This guy either works for them, or has been fed this stuff by them- there is no third choice. And it goes on ALL THE TIME in the field- the only time they take the \"high road\" is when we are in a position to respond, and the only thing they will never do is compare products.
TGJB
Then I posted:
Author: Jim
Date: 03-25-02 12:35
Jerry, Jerry, perhaps I can negotiate a 2 for 1 discount with the terapist for you and HP. Try this...close your eyes and repeat \"Serenity now!!\" every 5 seconds. Better?
In answer to your attacks:
1)I thought you knew this, but there are few secrets in the racing industry. I have many friends that are employees at many racetracks. I know several Sheet players. Call me a liar all you want, still doesn\'t make it true.
2)Follow your lackey HP\'s thread, the story is there.
3)Uh ok Jerry. If you say so. I was under the impression your product was thrown off the track at Calder year before last due to poor sales. I mean how bad is it when Lawton, who sells $10/day, is allowed to stay and your product got the hook?
4)The point is you HAVE to pay cash for shipping.
5)I call bs. You aren\'t doing anything for the GP patrons out of the goodness of your heart. You GAVE your product away to promote your product. Ragozin didn\'t because he doesn\'t have to (what did I imply there?) - end of story.
6)Once again, I don\'t work for them and never have. I just got fed up with bs and set you straight. Call me a liar again and we\'ll see who backs down when push comes to shove.
Come on Jerry, you aren\'t changing my mind, putting words in my mouth, or getting me to change the subject. I stand by everything I said in the post and you still have not refuted one word. Is offense really your best defense? Let me apologize for saying you are desperate, you obviously are very secure, lol.
I have purposely tried to stay away from bashing/slamming you, but you saying that I am dishonest is crossing the line. Keep it up and this discussion will take a nasty turn, count on it. Ragozin may take the high road, but I have no relationship with them so I don\'t have to. Your own customers (there are a couple on this thread) tire of your rants against Ragozin - grow up already.
Then your response:
Author: TGJB
Date: 03-25-02 13:50
Jim-
To quote Peter O\'Toole(Henry II?)in \"A Lion In Winter\", \"I\'ve won. Surely you noticed.\"
When we started this site, one of my stated aims was to bring guys like you out from under the rocks and into the open, where both the methods and false accusations of the Raggies would be clear, and the B.S. refuted. In your case we have the added bonus of seeing the breathtaking contempt you have for the intelligence of those following the \"debate\"- attempts at slippery, Clintonesque(and not even well done)hair splitting(it matters at which track Nebel got banned?).
In any event, we don\'t pay cash for shipping, not that it would mean anything regarding the value of the product if we did. A long time(8-10 years)ago we did have to, when the company was shaky. We do almost all our business with UPS on the same basis Ragozin does his with FedEx. We do a few packages a week with FedEx, and pay by check. Discussion of this subject says alot more about you, Nebel and the other Raggies than it does about us.
You asked HP if he knew how much Nebel was selling those passes for. Answer- enough to get his ass thrown off track.
Too funny.
Incidentally, are there terapists outside Maryland?
TGJB
My response:
Author: Jim
Date: 03-25-02 14:00
Jerry,
I like how you pick one or two things from my factual replies and try to slide past them but you have done nothing but proven my points. Why exactly did you have to pay cash?
It mattered which track because you were wrong. I know that you would like to me to pass over everything you post incorrectly, but I\'m not going to. Once I again I tell you that Nebel was reinstated for the pass \"misunderstanding\". (doesn\'t seem to sink in with you guys for some reason though)
Seems you have completely gotten off my original points about Gulfstream, the seminar, and the ThoroGraph Operatives (talk about questionable characters). A victory for me since you didn\'t say I wrong about any of them...what you don\'t say says a lot more about you that what you are saying.
After not answering any of my points, you finally gave up and with your final post said:
Author: TGJB
Date: 03-25-02 14:27
Jim-
I have a lot higher opinion of readers here than you do- I\'ll let this go unanswered. Thank you, and don\'t be a stranger.
TGJB
So Jerry, you BACKED DOWN, plain and simple. You refused to answer any of the points I raised and in the end layed down like a $10 hooker.
This so much fun - I love seeing lying scum like you squirm.
Jim, since I harped on the Nebel thing and I\'m Jerry\'s lackey I will address this.
Jim - \"Once I again I tell you that Nebel was reinstated for the pass \"misunderstanding\". (doesn\'t seem to sink in with you guys for some reason though)\"
Jim, it sank in. Talk about selective and not responding. Nebel was reinstated. He\'s a millionaire, he doesn\'t care what we think. All that is great. He was also thrown off the track. I would say given the crowd and behavior that I see at the track, it takes a real winner to get booted. Most millionaires can avoid this kind of thing, and know how to handle free passes.
Over and over again you point out that Nebel was \'reinstated\' without dealing with the fact that he was booted in the first place. Then you make an innuendo about TG operatives being of questionable character. Well Jim, somehow TG operatives manage NOT to get booted off the track, for any reason, whether it was a \'misunderstanding\' or not, and they don\'t need to be \'reinstated\'. According to you, they have some undue influence with management. This despite the fact that, as you never tire of pointing out, Ragozin outsells TG and thus generates more revenue for the track.
Any time you feel like writing out your version of Nebel\'s ban, feel free. You\'re the one who seems to know everything as Mr. Racetrack Insider with pals everywhere. It seems to be something you choose to avoid discussing, like pre-race comments. How come? Tell us the story, Jim. I\'d love to see you write about this and try to make Nebel look good while being booted.
I\'m very happy he was reinstated, and his character and activities reflect nicely on the Ragozin operation in general. HP
Thanks for making several of my points. Bye now.