If you want to scrutinize trips over and over this site is darn good for the preps, bdhsheets referred us to it. I\'d heard of it, but never linked to it.
http://www.kentuckyderby.com
When you watch the Santa Catalina note how St. Averil is 3-4 wide throughout. Preaching at the bar saves all the ground on the first turn is taken wide when he has to be and finishes with the best energy. He\'s a Silver Charm I believe.
Another race of keen interest to me was the Risen Star. When you watch it note how Nightlifeatbigblue runs along in relatively steady fractions is passed by Polish rifle and then repasses that one and runs on gamely with the top two to the wire. When the view goes post finish line and isolates on Grade Point, ask yourself: \"Whose tail that is to the inside of Grade Point\"?
lol
Per usual, trips make for winners many times in the Derby. Not a lot separates most Derby crops unless theres a true superstar.
CtC
Post Edited (02-25-04 19:07)
speaking of derby trips, i was just looking through the archives, and i stumbled upon the 2002 derby. M\'dO went off at 7-1 and Perfect Drift went off at 8-1, and they could not beat WE or Proud Citizen!!! i still think i had a pretty good exacta picked out. a ton of luck involved in that race no doubt.
i still have gradepoint on the top of my list. he seems to have a bit more speed than most young AP Indy colts, and he certainly will get the distance. i\'m surprised none of the experts even have him in the top five.
You obviously had a couple of good horses there. I thought less of them at the time, but they both have made their mark. I was a little lucky in getting a mental image of the pace scenario and it held up for me that day.
I keep viewing the Fountain of Youth from bdhsheets site:
http://www.kentuckyderby.com
I missed the live call cause i viewed the race over the puter. Theres no subsitute for being there. Anyway, one of my favorite things in racing is Tom Durkin. He is bar none the best race caller I\'ve ever listened to and I got to hear him call the Fountain for the first time at this site. I have to wonder if he draws up ideas for the call pre race. I think he must. This call was classic. One of the best ever. I can\'t stop listening to it. It compares to the 1989 B.C. Classic call. How does he do it? How does he get all those calls down and not slur a word? Not really make a mistake? I think his excitement is genuine and its infectious.
Durkin:
\"Theres a half mile left to run and Second of June makes his move. There goes Second of June. Read the Footnotes gonna go right with him. Second of June and Read the Footnotes, the two favorites hook up leaving the backstretch...And the Stage is Set in the Fountain of Youth. Second of June and Read the Footnotes. These two virtually even at the top of the stretch. Read the Footnotes Turns up the pressure on Second of June. Its the acid test now in the Fountain of Youth. Second of June is a neck in front. Read the Footnotes gonna test him right down to the wire and the two of them THROW IT DOWN. Second of June still \"off\" a head. Jerry Bailey is all over Read the Footnotes, now its a nose. Second of June, Read the Footnotes, right together. READ... THE... FOOTNOTES\"
It was Vic Stauffer. Durkin did do the Florida portion of the Sunshine Millions for NBC this year but otherwise hasn\'t called races at Gulfstream since \'02.
I know of one expert, OPM, who has him in his top one. Since Gradepoint wasn\'t a separate betting interest in the 1st pool, & the 2nd pool doesn\'t open until after the Louisana Derby, time would appear to be of the essence. Interesting to see that his future book odds in Europe range from 16-1 to 25-1, while he is 40-1 on the Bally\'s site, which was the only Las Vegas number I could find when I searched the internet. Anyone know of any others?
Pinnacle Sports is offering Derby future book on 98 horses. Gradepoint is at 23-1.
Frank
gradepoint went off at 24-1 in pool 1. i have been looking to get a bet down on him, but the connection tend to go so easy with their horses that 24-1 did not make a lot of sense to me (not that any of these bets are smart).
You\'re kiddin? I swore it was Durkin. They sound so similar. Thats what puter betting gets you. Anyway, a couple of my favorite things in racing are Tom Durkin and Vic Stauffer. They are \"bar none\" the best race callers I\'ve ever listened to.
lol
I think all handicappers unless they are made of stone have horses that they get attached to. Silver Charm knows what I mean. :) Funny Cide was one for me. So is Storm Flag Flying. She hasn\'t made me much money, but she is out of My Flag who is by my favorite horse of all time, Easy Goer. He didn\'t make me much money either though...lol She won like her old self Thursday and might be fun to watch, we\'ll see.
Apparently Oscar is currently working well and is gonna get one more crack at the heavy heads.
Silver Wagon is off the Triple Crown trail. I\'m relieved in a way, because despite being beaten the way he had been I suspected he was about to move way up and that a different track and distance was going to allow his ability to show through. I\'m sorry for Ralph Ziadie who is top flight.
CtC
Post Edited (02-27-04 04:43)
CtC wrote:
\"I think all handicappers unless they are made of stone have horses that they get attached to. Silver Charm knows what I mean. Funny Cide was one for me. So is Storm Flag Flying. She hasn\'t made me much money, but she is out of My Flag who is by my favorite horse of all time, Easy Goer.\"
You\'ve got that right.
I\'m glad Storm Flag is back (maybe??). Heck I\'m glad Shug is back, it seems like he disappeared. Also the dam of My Flag wasn\'t too bad either--Personal Ensign. I was at the 1/16th pole Third Floor Clubhouse at CD Breeders Cup Day when she went by me with her neck and back leveled off and her ears pinned back--taking dead aim on the Ky Derby winner. Yes, that\'s right the Derby winner Winning Colors. Seems like yesterday not 16 years ago.
A little side story. The Phipps were looking to part ways with Angel Penna who was their personal trainer and the people at Claiborne Farm told them they had some UNBELIEVABLE BABY STOCK prancing around the grounds at Claiborne. They recommended Shug to them and the partnership began, he moved to NY and before the wise New Yorkers caught on we could still GET A PRICE.
Personal Flag was the 3 year old we were told to look for and that fall Shug unleashed Personal Ensign and Polish Navy as two year olds. The next year came Seeking the Gold and Easy Goer the year after that. How much would that crew cost you at the Keeneland July Select Sale???
I think the people at Claiborne new what they were talking about.
Post Edited (02-27-04 11:58)
Silver Charm--
As I do with any post in here, I respect your opinion. However, I do not agree with it.
I personally believe that PERSONAL ENSIGN, EASY GOER, and SEEKING THE GOLD were terrific race horses despite SHUGS. He nearly got \'ENSIGN beat for his decision to run her at 1 1/4 at Belmont prior to the Distaff @CD. Her speed was dulled and only her tremendous class got her to the wire first that day. She was lenghts better than WINNING COLORS and GOODBYE HALO, but barely beat them in her most important race.
Lets talk about his handling of EASY GOER prior to the Derby and the BC Classic.
His decision to have Pat Day choke down EG in the WOOD and the JCGC, in my opinion and many others that play this game, cost EG the DERBY and Classic. Again, SHUGS found another way to dull a running machine\'s speed.
I could go on, but I think the point has been made. SHUGS is the typical trainer out of the Midwest that believes the best way to ride a horse is wrangling it back under any circumstance (see Carl Nafgzer for reference). Why do you think he used Patient Pat so much? Does anyone honestly believe that SUNDAY SILENCE would have beaten EG if Pat V. rode EG and Charlie Whittingham trained???
Good Luck,
Joe B.
I never gave an endorsement to Shug my endorsement was to Claiborne and their recommendation on the quality of stock they recognized the Phipps had.
I totally agree on your assessment of Shugs handling of Easy Goer as I was a huge fan of him myself. However, I do think the Phipps and their loyalty to NYRA deserves some of the blame. They insisted their horses run in those races in NY when at the time the JCGC was a mile and one-half race prepping for a mile and a quarter BC run at speed favoring Gulfstream Park. Also I believe the spacing between the races was an issue.When Goer breezed a half mile in 50 flat three days before the race, the race was effectively over. Goer walked out of the gate day and Pat Day is still being blamed for the race.
As far as Shugs use of Pat Day, there was in the minds of Kentuckians Bluebloods back then of a jockey colony mafia in NY with stories of FIXED TRIPLES,etc. When Shug moved up there he wanted HIS GUYS riding his horses. That also explains how Romero ended up being the regular rider of Personal Ensign.
All good points. You untangled the cob webs when you mentioned the :50 half mile work prior to the BC.
EASY GOER was also one of my favorites and I still carry a grudge against SHUGS for his inept handling.
As an aside, it\'s suprising that when the Classic race between EG and SS is discussed hardly anyone brings up the effort put in by BLUSHING JOHN. He was the one tracking the fast pace set by SLEW CITY SLEW and held on quite well while spotting his 3yo rivals 5 pounds.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Silver, the New York triples were never FIXED, they were only repaired some.
Your probably right.
I shouldn\'t be so cynical, your horses were all clean and the jocks who ride at Calder are bunch of Abraham Lincolns themselves.
Also, where else but here can Chuckles the Clown and the Phipps family be discussed in the same breath.
Now wait a minute Silver! I may not be as reknowned or wealthy as the Phipps clan but I enjoy the horses every bit as much. Besides, you can\'t tell a horse\'s true class until you match him up with the bluebloods. Humble or crude bloodlines don\'t mean he can\'t run.
lol
That was a wonderful anecdote about the Phipps family stock in Kentucky and you\'re right, the value of Phipps breds would be reflected in the sales if they sold them. That said its been many years since they had a good Derby prospect. Accellerator wasn\'t bad. (Another late developing A.p. Indy by the way)
Joe B. That analysis of Shugs younger days was very insightful. I agree about his missteps and extra prudent handling. I really think a more experienced trainer would have come close to getting an undefeated colt out of Easy Goer. I still don\'t think Goer was ever gonna win the Derby that day. He didn\'t finish with the flash he normally did and I just don\'t think he cared for the goo at Churchill Downs. Also, he was wrong for the Met Mile too. It was his worst loss. The Breeders Cup Classic was one of the most remarkable efforts in defeat I\'ve ever witnessed. Goer\'s nemesis left little margin for error at any distance up to 10 marks, but a more aggressive jockey would probably have suited the big fuel tanker better.
Blushing John ran absolutely bang up in the Classic. I don\'t think Goer had a length on him at the end. I do recall Dancing Spree\'s race that day, but I\'ve learned to NEVER, NEVER overly discount a \"front end\" horse at Hallandale.
CtC