has anyone heard the rumor that orb is a bad bleeder, bleeding through his lasix? i saw on bloodhorse that steve haskin confirmed he\'s heard the rumor. this is why horse racing needs to governed by the gaming authorities--keeping this kind of information from the bettors is akin to insider trading on the stock market.
\"has anyone heard the rumor that orb is a bad bleeder, bleeding through his lasix? i saw on bloodhorse that steve haskin confirmed he\'s heard the rumor. this is why horse racing needs to governed by the gaming authorities--keeping this kind of information from the bettors is akin to insider trading on the stock market\"
Kekomi,
If true, would fit. Orb only got good when lasix was added in his Florida starts.Of further interest is the stumping no lasix blowhards, ORB owners, Phipps and Janney should crawl under a rock.
Mike
I believe Orb was on respite at Fair Hill all summer so he could utilize its hyperbaric chamber to help with his EIPH.
Fwiw, when I saw him at the JCGC I thought he looked awful--thin, dull coat--he just seemed over it and ran like it too.
Orb Gold Cup pic (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnepe3ap0g52q1a/2013-09-28%2017.44.52.jpg)
Conversely here was your winner: Ron The Greek (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jn9xyueu2oco51k/2013-09-28%2017.44.46.jpg)
One thing that is disheartening is that I understand that lasix dosages vary from horse to horse and max dosage allowed varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It seems to me pretty vital not only to know how much lasix the horse got in each race in its PPs (or on the sheet), but also, how much is the horse allowed in the current jurisdiction.
Also, I believe there are different time restrictions as to when the dosage can be given (at least I have been told this). Some people have said that there are horses who run differently if they race early in the card versus late in the card and that the reason for this is that the lasix rules (of certain jurisdictions) require the lasix to be given X hours before the FIRST race of the card.
Dont know how much this second point is true or not -- but i do know the first point is correct. If the rumors are true, wouldn\'t it be interesting to see that the Kentucky and Florida maximum allowed dosages exceed those in Maryland and New York (and that Orb was taking max dosages). If true, the betting public should be outraged.
Interesting. Asmussen once told me he can tell whether a horse bled recently by his coat.
Orb was retired recently, no?
Orb retired.Doubt connections or Claiborne will be forthcoming about Orb being a bleeder, if he was one.
Wonder if the heavy sweating he did in FLA is related at all.
Second point is true. A friend whose family had a horse in the Miami Mile at Calder back in April told me to bet him. He scratched just before the race. When I asked why, he told me that Lasix was administered 10 minutes too late (according to Calder rules).
not necessarily--they didn\'t race him on lasix as a 2 yo, and retied him sound instead of trying to squeak another win out of him...maybe the conversation/scenario with shug went something like this:
orb didn\'t bleed through his lasix until after the ky derby--maybe the first time was in the preakness
after the belmont, janey wants to retire orb due to bleeding through his lasix. but shug hears about fair hill (maybe from orb\'s exercise rider, she lives near there i think), and says, \"let\'s give him time and treatment to heal and strengthen his lungs at fairhill, and then bring him back strong in the fall.\" the fairhill/train away from the track, was something shug had never done before. and when point of entry needed to heal, they didn\'t send him to fairhill, but to ocala.
and this might explain why they skipped the jim dandy. shug had said at the time, \"i don\'t want to move two steps forward (i.e. the treatment at fairhill) and then a step back (i.e. one race too many)\" the goal at this point was still the BCC--maybe shug assumed that orb could go 3 races in row before he\'d bleed again (if my ky derby theory is right).
orb looked strong in the travers, and for a minute there he looked like the winner, till he faded in the stretch, and was passed by a horse he\'d just passed. he could have started to bleed again at that point. they sent him immediately back to fairhill.
they bring him back for the jcgc, he was in the mix for almost 6f, and then stopped running and finished way last. maybe that\'s where he started bleeding again. he was clearly sound, he fired off a 59 and change breeze 2 weeks later.
immediately after the jcgc, janey says that orb is to be retired, then shug says he\'ll run in the cigar mile, which was weird to begin with because orb doesn\'t seem to be fast enough to win against quality milers--while the 9f clark was the next day and seemed right up orb\'s alley.
maybe shug\'s logic was, \"if we shorten the distance, he won\'t start bleeding till he\'s almost home.\"
then out of the blue orb\'s retired, right after firing off a bullet at belmont, and by the look of things, shug wasn\'t told beforehand.
my guess, orb bled after the work, and janey said, \"that\'s enough.\" if i\'m right, janey did right by orb and didn\'t compromise his principles.
if orb was bleeding badly in most or all of his races this year, then every one of his effort\'s except for the jcgc was the best of any 3 yo by far, and ranks up there with best by any n. american hose this year--think about his belmont, closing all that ground wide, only to fade in the 12 f and still hang of for 3rd--while bleedng badly (i.e. essentially being unable to breathe)--maybe that\'s why shug just could let him go.
this might also explain why claiborn put him in secretariat\'s stall (and bold ruler\'s, and easy goer\'s, and unbridled\'s...). but if he is a bad bleeder, he shouldn\'t be bred...but horses with no breeding value, have no value period...even for rich people...the sad vicious circle of horse racing/breeding. if it\'s true, the ky horse park, would be a better place for him, then the breeding shed.
just as an fyi--i\'ve seen all over the horse-racing internet sphere this whack notion that hyperaric therapy helps treat/cure bleeding--there is no way for it to do this, it has no effect on the lungs. it has a temporary effect on oxygen absorption by the internal organs. take a deep breath. now exhale. you\'ve just had the same exact effect on your lungs as orb did in the chamber (not taking into account that you probably were breathing in pollutants and carcinogens, along with your nitrogen-oxygen-c02 cocktail known as air, while he ws breathing in pure oxygen).
i don\'t remember who, but there was a trainer in the days before lasix that believed if you tied a wire around a horse\'s tail he wouldn\'t bleed. the hyperbaric chamber theory is just as efficacious.
it\'s when i see crack-pot stuff like this that i think that horse vets and dopers are quacks, who just sometimes stumble onto something that works. the wire-around-the-tail was actually probably better for the horse in the long run, since excessive use of the chamber will weaken the lungs and make racing at sea level for the chamber horse, as difficult as racing at altitude for the non-chamber horse (hyperbaric treatment is like going below sea level--high altitude=low oxygen, sea level=normal oxygen, hyperbaric=more oxygen. it has the inverse athletic effect as training at altitude, if done more than just for a few days before a race).
Published yesterday by Joe Clancy,make sure you read the third paragraph.
Hooper
Orb was meant to get one more chance in 2013, and McGaughey targeted the Cigar Mile Nov. 30. The starting gate for the Grade 1 could include Groupie Doll, Goldencents, Alpha, Verrazano, Capo Bastone and others. Orb would have made an interesting addition. He worked three times after the Gold Cup, including a strong 5 furlongs in 59.12 seconds at Belmont Park Oct. 27. Janney and McGaughey knew the Gold Cup wasn't the Orb they knew, and the men expected an improved effort.
They also discussed 2014, and McGaughey made a gameplan that included spring starts in the Oaklawn Park Handicap, the Stephen Foster, then on to Saratoga for the Whitney. Like all Thoroughbred owners at his level, Janney did some math and consulted experts. The reality was Orb's stallion value was not going to increase all that much if he won the Cigar Mile and/or had a strong next season. That value could, however, decrease if things didn't go well.
"From an economic point of view, the risk/reward is not what you'd like," said Janney. "I was pretty optimistic that he would have had a really good 4-year-old year, but a the end of the day it was going to be tough to bring him back. If everything went right, we were looking at a 10-percent upside if he had a good year and a 40-percent downside if he didn't."
i hope he\'s not a bad bleeder--i have no idea if it\'s true, which is why i asked if anyone else had heard the rumor.
people like steve haskin have confirmed they\'ve heard it--steve haskin isn\'t really much more than a fan boy and doesn\'t tend to pass on or confirm negative info
my hypothetical was only as a counter to the assumption that janey necessarily was being a hypocrite regarding his stance on lasix. he could very well be a hypocrite, most people are when it comes to their own money and prestige
saying he\'d have been great as a 4 yo, doesn\'t mean that they really beleive it...you wouldn\'t really want to say that the horse you just retired to stud is such a bad bleeder he bleeds through his lasix and was retired because of it...it seemed like they wanted to redeem his effort in the JCGC initially, and wanted to still try for the 3yo eclispe, and shug seemed taken by surprise by the announcement...but i have no way to know, except that janey did announce immediately after the JCGC that he was retiring orb, then shug called an audible...but it doesn\'t really matter one way or the other, except that it illustrates how little bettors know when it comes to critical info, info of the same importance that is required by law to be released in the largest gambling operation in the US...wall street...