Vito made really good posts during the triple crown and then disappeared. He was a guy who really wanted to discuss sheet reading and had very well thought out views. I do not remember what his handle was, but everybody here called him Vito anyway. TGJB, did we do something to scare him away? Any chance of enticing him back for the Breeders\' Cup?
Let me put it this way. There\'s a guy I know (Normie O, for New Yorkers) who started using Ragozin while I was still there, used them for maybe 20-30 years, was friendly (but short of a friend) with Friedman. He switched to our stuff a few years back. He called the other day and told me Len now won\'t speak to him when he sees him at the track, won\'t even say hello.
Could be wrong, but I suspect Vito got a stern talking to for posting here.
He is a Ragozin board guy . His last tout was Swift Warrior last out. Jim? bounce? too much weight? hates Belmont?
anybody here follow both boards? I used to, but a ways back the Ragozin board got too cumbersome/hard to read (their software for making the threads makes it really hard to follow conversations and they have guys who spout a lot of nonsense that are hard to skip over). Am just thinking that if it is not too much trouble, we could have a Vito Proxy here.....somebody just copy and paste Vito\'s posts onto this board. What would be wrong with that?
I think those horses are just better than Swift Warrior. That horse has taught me alot about class. When we run him at the right level against listed stakes and real grade 3 horses, he usually wins or is right there. When we get too aggressive with him class wise, he never fires. Not once has he run his race against better horses but he always fires against lower class competition..
We thought the knickerbocker would be the right spot class wise for his final race of the year but that race came up very very tough. More like a strong grade 2. Za approval set the stakes record tacking 124 and those others werent far behind him.
JB says he bounced but I say no way. He got beat 3.5 lengths tacking 124 to a grade 1 horse that set a course record. That\'s no bounce in my book.
We have put warrior away for the year after an awesome campaign and will aim to bring him back in February at tampa to defend his title in the Tampa bay stakes.
I said he ran the figure I gave him, did not use the term bounce.
As Cary Grant said in The Philadelphia Story, \"Class my...eye\".
Hah. Good one.
To not believe class matters in horse racing is just silly.
No need to get into this argument again. Too many other fun topics to discuss this weekend.
Can\'t wait to see the figures for all of the races tomorrow night.
For all of the crying old timers love to do about horses not staying in training and being retired too quickly \"these days\" we have 7 winners from last year coming back and the top 4 plus the favorite from last years classic coming back for another shot plus a whole bunch of top 3 year olds that the whiners love to say don\'t exist anymore. And then that distaff, forget about it. Ridiculous top 3 there. Amazing 2 days coming up.
Nice to know Norm is still kicking. I don\'t think they make them like that anymore, along with the other \'regulars\' who were anything but.
i used to follow both for years, but with all due respect, sherman blew that board up
Any updates on School on a Hill covello? I was eager to use him at Keeneland and he scratched both times.
Hey Fairmount,
Hope things are good with you.
School on a Hill was pretty unlucky in his last race. We told jock to hug the rail and he did that but for shut off right when he was making his move.
He had easily outworked the winner of the race in their final breeze so that stung a bit to lose that one.
I think he\'s a pretty good horse. We will bring him back in an allowance at CD and target the 3 yr old turf stakes next year.
He breezed back this week and came out of the race fine other than a skin rash.
Good luck next weekend.
Jim
I saw that one was bred by the Millenium people, who are part of your ownership group. He was listed as an $18,000 auction animal. Was that 18K RNA? Just curious.
Hey Richie,
what\'s up buddy?
that 18k was a real number. Interesting story actually.
We bought the horse privately after his first race/win and I called Ro from Millenium (who I was introduced to by JB) to tell him I just bought a horse he bred and he asked me if he could buy back in. He said he never wanted to sell the horse at auction in the first place because he liked the horse but he was small (and still is) and so they culled him from the group. Ro is an awesome guy, one of the absolute best people I have ever met in this business so I am excited to be partners with him on this horse as well as the folks at West Point Thoroughbreds.
The WPT people are great people (that\'s how I got involved in the game in the first place). They buy mostly at the sales but they started to dabble in the private purchase market so we have been looking for a deal to do together for some time now and this one presented itself. We were obviously hoping to get to the BC with him and that didn\'t work out but I think that may be for the best as he\'s not at the level of say a Bobby\'s Kitten (who is one of my most likely winners of the two days of the BC) and I think SOHA will be better at longer distances so not making the BC may wind up being a blessing in disguise with this guy.
Thanks for clarifying Jim. Best of luck at the big event.
Vito is a regular on the Sheets board. He is a longtime Rags user, as am I. Unlike Vito, I use the Thoro\'s as well. We both play at Race Palace. I read your board regularly and I use 25+ sets of Rags a week.I am probably good for 12 books here as well.I make serious money in this game and these two products are the best edge that exists, bar none. I would be hard-pressed to believe that Len or Jake cares who posts here. You should encourage Vito to post here as well, he always has a gem or two to share.
As for Normie O, he converted to Thoro\'s when he couldn\'t afford the Rags anymore. Norman owes a lot of money to a lot of Sheet and Thoro players and I suspect Len knows of it. He is a hopeless spreader anyway and could give little insight to you folks.
Good luck to all this weekend.
Racemaven
Let me see if I can guess who told you Norman switched because he couldn\'t afford the other guy. Not Norman.
They were pushing that line for a while, as far as I knew they stopped years ago because it didn\'t pass the laugh test, so I\'m surprised. I mean, think about it. You\'re betting enough to warrant paying either $25 or $35, and you\'re going to put that handle at risk with a product you don\'t think is as good to save $10?
People use the product they think is best unless they bet so little that it doesn\'t make sense to buy it.
Well Jerry, nobody has to \"tell me\" about poor old Normie-O ( the O is for his last name, btw) because I know him all too well! I am surprised he can scratch together gas money to drive to the Palace and buy a Thoro. Obviously, I am one of the players he owes money to.
But since you bring it up with your \"they\'s\" references, why would you not consider the validity of pricing when it comes to the use of either product, given as a backdrop your recent \"capping\" of daily purchases as a marketing strategy. Sometimes I think you go overboard with your references on the board just to try and prove a point. They are both good products. I use both. I play in the Crown room with players who swear by either/or. The important point is sheet/thoro players move the pools and they both put us way ahead of the other players in the paramutual pools. Incidently, it would be great if you could print less boxes in the Thoro\'s. They provide no useful information to us in the races they appear.
Racemaven
1-- Oh, pricing strategy is important all right, it\'s just not why Norman or anyone else switched. We\'ve experimented with a lot of pricing things over the years, and the reduced caps we started this year are probably why we\'re up almost 20% in online sales. Pricing doesn\'t affect which handicapping product people who bet significant money buy, it affects how much they buy. Evidently you buy the hard copy, but I would point out that hardcopy represents around 20% of our sales. Most of our guys play from Living Room Downs and bet multiple tracks.
2-- The boxes do provide useful info, they tell you that there isn\'t enough information to make figures for that race. A typical situation is maidens in the first race on dirt, grass next two races, track changing speed throughout the rest of the dirt races. If only one or two have run before (especially if they ran badly then or finish up the track today), there is no basis for making a figure. Those that create one are guessing and/or using averages. For more on this check out Changing Track Speeds in the Archives section.
Evidently you don\'t know or bother to know your own customer. I have a very active online account with you as well as well as using books \"comped\' at the Palace. In any event, I see this conversation is pointless, so I will end it.
Good luck in the Breeder\'s Cup.
Racemaven