After working so well yesterday Bob Baffert has called an audible and now is sending Power Broker there instead of the West Virgina Derby. Obviously the prestige is signficantly better but what about the competition.
I am very curious to see what Verzanno does. After creating a splash when he won by 16 at GP in Feb, this one has been given kid glove treatment. If the Derby was a non-effort then why not the Preakness two weeks later? He hasnt really been pushed or rushed. Might learn something here on Haskel Day. Not really any excuses in terms of the distance, timing and rest!!
So, why is Repole running his horse there rather than Saratoga... hmmm?
I agree with that thinking and as bad as Power Broker dusted Micromanage in the Easy Goer maybe Repole calls an audible.....I seriously doubt it but.
Back to Verazanno I seem to remember at one point there being a discussion over how many Triple Crown races he might win. Somebody set an Over/Under and then horse barely ran in one. The Wood was supposed to a race where The Jock toyed with the others....and then the The Jock actually did stick with the horse jumping off the eventual Derby Winner.
Confusing enough as it is. I see NO EXCUSES for this horse this weekend. Its been almost 6 mths since that -2 at GP and this horse has received spacing all spring like he was......what????
Silver, need to see what this creature looks like, then we will know the deal.
He looked like Pegasus reincarnated early in the winter but had really taken a step back in physical appearance by the time the Classics rolled around.
I will be there on Saturday so if I am able to get a good view of him in the paddock, I will try to throw something up on the board but it wouldn\'t be until right before post.
hope you are good buddy!
Seems to me that for Repole to leave Saratoga he\'s gotta be scared of Palace Malice or not scared of Verazzano, or, Pletcher thinks he\'ll run better at Monmouth,which is freakin Dodge City right now. Which is not good for Palace Malice\'s chances.
Jim Dandy is likely to be ROTW.
Cove thanks for the kind words and thanks for doing that for the rest of us. I will either be a version of Walt Disney down here or sweeping cigarette butts off the ground at Disney with what Im trying. We will see.....
Outside chance my friends horse Bellarmine may be in on the Dandy Card. I dont know anything. My friends pulled a Covello Fantasy Trip the day of the Virginia Derby. Saw Bellarmine work at 7:30AM that morning at CD. Drove to Keeneland and looked at some horses at the July Fasig Tipton they ended up buying the next week and then drove on over to Colonial Downs for the Virginia Derby to see War Dancer run and win.
The ROTW pretty much nailed it for that race as most of the Owners were NOT sure about the distance that day and the Trainer and Asst were like \"no problem\". Its on to the Secretariat next at Arlington on Million Day even with the main owner being a Saratoga guy. Outside chance Olympic Thunder goes there with him to run in the Hatoof. Keep an eye on him. Summer Racing and gambling is about to get REAL serious again.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pletcher thinks he\'ll run better at Monmouth,
> which is freakin Dodge City right now.
Funny that you mention this, because suddenly (last 2 or
3 weeks), SuperWonderBoy trainer Moya has gone stone cold,
eking out some meaningless 2nds and 3rds, but no wins and
almost certainly no jump ups.
What, did the guy get religion? Or did he simply run all
his stock into the ground?
Rick B. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TGJB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Pletcher thinks he\'ll run better at Monmouth,
> > which is freakin Dodge City right now.
>
> Funny that you mention this, because suddenly
> (last 2 or
> 3 weeks), SuperWonderBoy trainer Moya has gone
> stone cold,
> eking out some meaningless 2nds and 3rds, but no
> wins and
> almost certainly no jump ups.
>
> What, did the guy get religion? Or did he simply
> run all
> his stock into the
Deleted
Moya\'s streaky. Earlier in the year he went cold for a while at Parx too after having a crazy hot streak.
Looking forward to Covello\'s on-track reports.
I am still squarely of the opinion that Verrazano is the most talented horse of this crop, when at his best. The obvious question now is, how often can he be at his best, or even worse, did he peak in Feb with form he won\'t ever get back to.
I incorrectly assumed this spring that he would be able to get back to his Feb form by Derby time, and perhaps that was an indication that he won\'t ever be able to do that again. I don\'t have the benefit of the in-person evaluations Covello gets, but as you mentioned, even the jock and agent thought he was the most talented horse. He just was not back into form during the Derby timeframe for whatever reason.
I do agree with you that there are zero excuses here on Sat. With the speed-favoring strip and the amt of rest he has had, plus showing a decent (if not easy) race over the strip already, there is no excuse (maybe short of slop, if he really doesn\'t enjoy it?) for him to not get back to his best unless there is a long-term issue.
If he fails, it doesn\'t mean he wasn\'t a great horse during the winter. It just means that he was not able to sustain the greatness for more than a couple months, which makes him much less durable than even the fragile types we see in abundance these days. It is what it is.
Moya barn was raided two weeks ago, blood samples taken from every horse is the backstretch buzz here at Mth.
Moya won race 6 this past Saturday. So much for him not winning a race in the last 2-3 weeks....... Just saying
All the best
TreadHead Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>
> If he fails, it doesn\'t mean he wasn\'t a great
> horse during the winter. It just means that he
> was not able to sustain the greatness for more
> than a couple months, which makes him much less
> durable than even the fragile types we see in
> abundance these days. It is what it is.
\"Great\" horse??
He isn\'t or wasn\'t \"great\". He ran really fast a few times, and won a few 3YO stakes races. Did nothing in the TC races.
That\'s not my idea of a \"great\" horse. Talented?? Sure. But the word great is tossed around far too often.
Paul,
I hope all is well on the left coast.
Please put the proper disclaimer on GREAT when you mention a Pletcher horse.
A great Pletcher horse runs an unbelievable fast figure early on; particularly at Gulfstream in the winter via the magical waters at Palm Meadows. They seldom duplicate the big figure and are retired before the end of their 3 yr old season.
Now that\'s GREAT!!!
Good luck and someone please have bail money as Richiebee comes to town for a 4 day Spa fix.
Frank D.
rob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moya won race 6 this past Saturday. So much for
> him not winning a race in the last 2-3
> weeks....... Just saying
>
> All the best
You are correct, forgot about that one. At a $6.20
mutuel, this one win was no surprise.
Still...1 for the last 20 starts didn\'t get this guy
to the 40% win rate he was sporting earlier this year.
The bigger point is, the guy went freezing cold at a
place thought to be wide open for sudden performance
improvements.
You are touching on another phenomenon, which is people wanting to bad-mouth and down-grade his performances just because he is trained by Pletcher. Nothing I can do to argue with bias like that.
His record speaks for itself, he\'s won multiple graded stakes, each at a different race track, is a G1 winner, and has only run one losing race in his career. Surely the competition of some of those races can be questioned, but we will find out a lot more on Saturday.
We can certainly argue about the definition of \"great\", but if he wins this race Sat (or places and has some other G1 triumphs later this year), it\'s going to be hard to deny him that tag, unless you are so blinded by Pletcher hate that you can\'t acknowledge exceptional records and performances when you otherwise should.
Frank,
Great to hear from you. Doing well out here, will attend a rather large Italian wedding this weekend. Cousin\'s daughter getting married. Can\'t complain about a thing....weather,job, anything life treated. My goal is to get to Saratoga some day soon, and will try to get there next year. Sounds like a blast. I\'ll leave my complaining for this board.
Tread,
Frank brings up a valid point. It isn\'t individual hate for me, its putting his record in perspective. What exactly has he accomplished??
He won a couple Derby preps. Bombed in the Derby, came back with a nice win. Its one thing to win a GR1 race, like the Wood, when horses are spread around the country and not all show up in one place.
\"if he wins this race Sat (or places and has some other G1 triumphs later this year), it\'s going to be hard to deny him that tag, unless you are so blinded by Pletcher hate that you can\'t acknowledge exceptional records and performances when you otherwise should.\"
I\'m not saying he isn\'t talented. But I have to say, yes it will be hard to call this 3YO great if he wins this Saturday.
You want a great 3YO?? How about Sunday Silence. This horse won a GR1 before the Kentucky Derby, 2/3 of the TC, and won the BC Classic against another great horse. Sunday Silence and Easy Goer were great. Do you really expect me or anyone else to put Verrazano in that class??
Comparing Verrazano to these two is a slap in the face to horses that are truly geat and have accomplishments that dwarf Verrazano. He\'s a nice colt, no doubt. But let\'s hold off on the superlatives, starting with the \"G\" word.
TGJB,
I must be getting dumber at an even faster rate than I thought (which is supported by my early Saratoga betting results)
I read your post 3 times and don\'t get it. At all.
Micromanage prepped at Monmouth for the Grade 1 Haskell, which is a more prestigious race than the Jim Dandy and worth more money. Micromanage ran super in the Monmouth race.
First off, I don\'t read that as \"afraid of Palace Malice\".
Dodge City, maybe.
Here comes the part I don\'t understand.
But even if we cede both your points, that he is \"afraid of Palace Malice and \"wants to run in Dodge City\", how is that \"bad news for Palace Malice\'s chances?.
I\'m gonna have to concur that JB\'s post was...oblique...to say the least.
Having said that, what I took from it was that it\'s bad news for PM to stay at the Spa because testing is tougher there than at Monmouth (dodge city). At least I think that\'s what I think...
This weekend we finally get back to the big boys. Paynter in San Diego and maybe Take Charge Indy in the older Mon stake too. Can have your sprinters, turfers, fillies (one obv exception) but this wkend and next (Whitney) is what gets the blood really pumping. And perhaps the futures bets laying.
Jimbo-- to be clear, it wasn\'t and, it was or. And I meant that if it was the last one it wasn\'t good news for Palace Malice.
Repole doesn\'t need the money and would rather win a race (and the owners title) at Saratoga than anywhere else. And instead he\'s shipping, to run against the horse that would be seen as the toughest in either race. Which happens to be trained by the same trainer.
FrankD. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good luck and someone please have bail money as
> Richiebee comes to town for a 4 day Spa fix.
>
> Frank D.
Frankie Brew Pub, I won\'t need it. I\'m bailing out in the first two races I will
watch on Thursday.
Many purists sniff at steeplechase racing; to me it is part of the Spa experience,
and how great is it that the races take so long you can catch a few winks or run
to the brew pub during the running. All one needs to know is that jump racing is
like any other equine sport ... crooked as all hell. As such, note that
both Jonathan Sheppard and Paul Fout are running horses as part of two separate
coupled entries. Each of them additionally has a single uncoupled entry in the
race. The uncoupled horses will be double digit odds.
In the second race, Thursday\'s fastest 2YO ever and likely winter book Derby
favorite for the Day is Pletcher\'s Corfu, sold for 185K as a yearling and
pinhooked for 675K at a Barretts 2YO in training sale. 3/5 in the program, but
Asmussen\'s firster has also been working quickly.
75 degrees, maybe a nice breeze, a small weekday crowd. Will remind me of the days
in the 1970s when I used to make a slight detour to the Spa on the way from Staten
Island to St. Louis (hey they didn\'t have Mapquest back then).
Win or lose, will I be happy today?
Happier than Mayor Carlos Danger at a speed dating convention.
Richie:
Hilarious comment on Carlos Danger..one comment..shouldn\'t he called himself
Carlos Peligroso???
John
Now hearing that Vyjack is headed to the Haskel. Nobody is getting scared away....wtf is going on??
Specifically for Vyjack, I imagine that post had something to do with it.
Among other possibilities.
I would love to know details of the alleged raid on Moya if anyone has them.
This was an impressive performance from a very talented horse, and I\'ll still contend he is the best of this crop when he is fully on his game. If that doesn\'t make him \"great\" in your eyes, then so be it, but if you have to go 30 years into the past to name a \"great\" horse, then you aren\'t capable of having a reasonable opinion and it\'s not worth debating.
Unfortunately, I tossed Silver Max and didn\'t benefit much from his win in the horizontals, but it was nice to see a superlative horse perform up to his potential.
TreadHead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This was an impressive performance from a very
> talented horse, and I\'ll still contend he is the
> best of this crop when he is fully on his game.
> If that doesn\'t make him \"great\" in your eyes,
> then so be it, but if you have to go 30 years into
> the past to name a \"great\" horse, then you aren\'t
> capable of having a reasonable opinion and it\'s
> not worth debating.
>
> Unfortunately, I tossed Silver Max and didn\'t
> benefit much from his win in the horizontals, but
> it was nice to see a superlative horse perform up
> to his potential.
Geezus.
I named one off the top of my head. Point Given ring a bell?? I could name others.
I\'m sorry, being the best of your crop doesn\'t make you great. So, I guess every year we have a great\" 3YO??
Again, and again......I\'ve never said he isn\'t talented. But winning a couple 3YO GR1 races with a couple nice horses doesn\'t make you great. When this horse can win a race like the Travers, or the BC Classic, then you can think about saying he\'s great.
> If you have to go 30 years into
> the past to name a \"great\" horse, then you aren\'t
> capable of having a reasonable opinion and it\'s
> not worth debating.
I\'ll be nice, and just say that this statement is absurd. It makes you sound less credible every time you say nonsense like this.
I can\'t wait to hear you trumpet how great Goldencents is if he happens to win the Bing Crosby.
great three year olds don\'t finish 14th in the derby unless they are injured, and they don\'t run the second slowest haskell (1.50.68) since 1968. the last 12 winners won this race under 1:50--shackleford even lost this race under 1:50--from 2000, you have to go all the way back to 1978 for another horse who won it over 1:49. verrazano won the haskell in the same fractions he won the wood...
palace malice, a horse i don\'t even like, ran a mile and an 8th in 1:47.37 yesterday--he\'s tied with 2 other horses for the 2nd fastest jim dandies. the fastest was louis quatorze in 1996, who ran it in 1:47 1/5. the last time verrazano hooked up with palace malice in a speed duel, he finished behind palace malice who set the fractions.
oxbow, another horse i don\'t have much respect for, ran exactly like a horse who has only had one work since the belmont. he was walking short in the post parade. and it was pretty clear he wasn\'t running 100%--even before he was almost vanned off after the race. lukas ran another horse into the ground...
plus pletcher\'s horses went 1 and 3 in this race at a track every here seems to agree is \"dodge city\"...just saying...
i\'m not trying to be rude, i just think calling this horse great and saying you have to go back 30 years to find other great horses is...unsupportable and insulting to the great horses of 30 years ago. he\'s not even the greatest horse currently racing...check out the video of wise dan\'s work yesterday--he would have won almost any race this weekend with his breeze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsYIsbO4kVE
Sorry PDub, but your post on red-boarding jockeys vs trainers takes the cake when it comes to spent credibility. Not interested in debating someone with opinions so ridiculous, my last post on the matter.
No, we don\'t have great 3yr olds every year, but if you can\'t appreciate the performance we saw today then you are blinded by hate for some other reason.
i\'m not the one who went back 30 years to define what \"great\" means, that was PDub. As for analyzing the raw times compared from 2 different tracks, I\'ll be polite and reserve the words I would say for how useless that is. If he doesn\'t earn a negative number for this win, I\'ll eat my hat.
EDIT - the race was 5 sec slower than PantsOnFire and 4 sec slower than Joyful Victory, which were 1 1/16th races. If you can\'t see that it was by far the most impressive route on the card, not sure what else to say.
TreadHead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry PDub, but your post on red-boarding jockeys
> vs trainers takes the cake when it comes to spent
> credibility. Not interested in debating someone
> with opinions so ridiculous, my last post on the
> matter.
>
> No, we don\'t have great 3yr olds every year, but
> if you can\'t appreciate the performance we saw
> today then you are blinded by hate for some other
> reason.
Another comment having nothing to do with the discussion. Nice job.
I don\'t know if you lack comprehension, or what. But appreciating his performance and calling him great are 2 completely different things. I\'ve said this over and over, at some point hopefully you can get that simple distinction.
Sorry if you think calling a horse great because he won a couple of restricted GR1 is ridiculous. At the rate you call horses great, the HOF will encompass the entire town of Saratoga in order to fit them all in.
TreadHead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i\'m not the one who went back 30 years to define
> what \"great\" means, that was PDub. As for
> analyzing the raw times compared from 2 different
> tracks, I\'ll be polite and reserve the words I
> would say for how useless that is. If he doesn\'t
> earn a negative number for this win, I\'ll eat my
> hat.
>
> EDIT - the race was 5 sec slower than PantsOnFire
> and 4 sec slower than Joyful Victory, which were 1
> 1/16th races. If you can\'t see that it was by far
> the most impressive route on the card, not sure
> what else to say.
JB will suspend me if I say what\'s on my mind right now, so I\'ll be as polite as possible.
I named a horse that is truly great. He ran in 1989, 24 years ago. So not only do you make ridiculous arguments on what makes a great horse, you can\'t add.
And you say my credibility is suspect. Brilliant!!
It was a supremely dominating win. Not much more than a hand ride.
The horse is on his game. Can\'t imagine he won\'t come out of this race ok, and if so there is no reason not to run in the Travers. A mile and a quarter is tough. I was of the school of thought that he was probably stretching it at 1 1/8 - but baby\'s got bottom alright. I guess he gets it from his dam, no doubt. Wherever, whatever, to say he dominated borders on understatement considering other times on the day, and I can\'t believe they tightened the track just for that race.
Really looking forward to the Travers now. Let\'s hope the track is fast and fair, not sloppy. May not be much of a betting race though. This horse will probably go off at less than even money.
Times are affected by many factors, including track surface. It has been pointed out several times already about how the track was playing at Monmouth today. Maybe it was the low air pressure being so close to the ocean. But seriously, you can\'t compare times the way you just did and successfully draw any meaningful conclusions. And please, don\'t bring up Secretariat as a point in fact. It won\'t fly.
I will add, it is interesting that the times were so slow at Monmouth today as Monmouth usually plays fast. At least I think it does. I don\'t really follow Monmouth, but when I see the times for horses running in New York who have been running at Monmouth, I know that those times are so fast because of the track surface, not so much the horse. Otherwise, I would lose a whole basket full of money betting those times in New York.
I believe Monmouth times appear fast because of the long run up to the initial photocell. That is, in sprints, the horses are nearly at speed when the timer starts. 1st fraction times are consistently quick.
I\'m not certain about the various route distances, probably similar.
Tread-- I\'ve kinda stayed out of this one, but since it gives me a chance to show Pdub I\'m really not biased against him, I\'m going to stick my toe in.
As I\'ve discussed here a lot (it came up about Zenyatta) ability and accomplishment are two different things. But no matter which yardstick you use here, Verazzano does not qualify as a great horse, and will not unless he does a LOT more.
I haven\'t done the day yet but I suspect Beyer got it about right, he ran about a neg 4 in the Haskell. And he now has won two GI\'s.
But if you want to see great 3yos, you don\'t have to go back 30 years. Take a look at the sheets or pp\'s for Smarty or Rachel, and not far behind are Point Given and Bernardini.
If Verrazano runs that fast again in his next three starts, and/or wins the Travers, Gold Cup and Classic, we can start talking about whether he\'s a great horse. Right now he\'s a horse that has run great once or twice.
Look, I get that not everyone is ready to call him a \"great horse\" yet, but I think hopefully now everyone would agree that he has \"great ability\". I think he\'s the most talented and exciting 3yr old we\'ve seen going back to Rachel or Big Brown, and given how his ability compares to those of the past couple years, I don\'t see why anyone would take issue with using superlatives to describe him.
If people want to reserve the right to define a \"great horse\" as someone who can repeat great performances many times on big stages, then it is fine to say you want to see it repeated more. But if there were ever to be a \"great\" horse in this day and age, its got to start with a record and sheet that looks something like this.
Even Rachel wasn\'t able to be \"great\" for more than a few months. Using measuring sticks for \"great\" that involve comparisons to horses 20+ years ago is simply beyond absurd. No one races their horses this often or as strenuously any more and the breeding has changed dramatically. If you want to use that as an excuse to say there aren\'t ever really going to be any more \"great\" horses because they don\'t run long campaigns, that is fine, I hope you enjoy how boring it is going to be as fan of racing for the next 20 years.
You guys are weighing durability heavily in your definition of \"great\", I\'m being more realistic about the world we live in today. I get no satisfaction out of enjoying horses that ran 20+ years ago, I want to enjoy the horses that are running now. I\'m not going to view the world thru some curmudgeon\'s glasses based on ideals formed 20-40 years ago or look for other biased reasons to hate like just because he\'s trained by Pletcher.
I\'m using a modern definition and enjoying the greatness I\'ve seen on display from him so far this year. Yes, he was off his game when humans thought it mattered most at the Derby, and is likely to falter in his next outing as well if he really did get a -4 here. But I\'ve enjoyed his other performances to date and it makes the hair on my neck stand up when he puts 10 lengths between himself and the field like he did yesterday. Or at Tampa. Or at Gulfstream.
Think JB pretty much nailed it. Verranzano has to accomplish much more against top level competition to be considered great by the standards set before him.The Haskell field he demolished was a bit light.
Agree Verranzano put up 2 huge performances,a tough read going forward as he has not shown the resiliency to repeat big performances,yet! Verranzano is the fastest 3 yr old right now,strictly speaking speed/performance figs.
If he runs off in the Travers(assuming he goes)he\'ll be closer to great.
We\'re going to try to post the sheets on these later.
All the ones I mentioned ran in the last 11 years, not 20-30 yars ago. Rachel ran 8 times at three, was undefeated, beating colts in 3 GI\'s (she won five overall), running two neg 4\'s (and I probably robbed her of another in the Mother Goose). Keep in mind fillies are 3 points slower than colts on average.
Point Given was 6 for 7 at three, winning five GI\'s, and accomplished a lot more than V at two. His figures don\'t quite stack up, but just like horses used to run more often, as a group they were slower, too.
Bernardini ran five straight between neg 2 and neg 3 3/4, won 3 GI\'s and ran second in the BC Classic.
Smarty was 9 for 10 lifetime, including 2/3 of the TC, with four straight efforts between neg 1 3/4 and 3 3/4. His last six starts came in just over three months.
\"palace malice, a horse i don\'t even like, ran a mile and an 8th in 1:47.37 yesterday--he\'s tied with 2 other horses for the 2nd fastest jim dandies. the fastest was louis quatorze in 1996, who ran it in 1:47 1/5. the last time verrazano hooked up with palace malice in a speed duel, he finished behind palace malice who set the fractions\"
Kekomi,
Palace Malice did not run as fast as Verranzano
did in the Haskell.Unadjusted raw time not a barometer for comparing performances.
Mike
To say I\'m intrigued by this string is an understatement. Now that I have completed the survey, I can critique V\'s races by saying that his best races, the runaway victories, took place in Florida and New Jersey. In Kentucky, he didn\'t like the track according to his trainer. And in the Wood, he did not resemble Great.
I have very little confidence that he wins the Travers just like I had little confidence he would win the Derby. I highly doubt he runs at Santa Anita for the Breeders Cup but he will be retired to stud by the end of this year with highlights of his Haskell and Gulfstream victories in the commercials to tell us he was truly \"great!\"
Another Pletcher produced sire that will make Tabor more money at stud than on the track.
I get your point, but the only thing we are really discussing there is volume of great performances and that volume defines a \"great horse\". Another way to look at this would be, how many horses have ever run a negative 4 at 3yrs old? In that light, I think it is fair to paint it as a \"great accomplishment\" or \"demonstration of great ability\" even if he never wins another race, given how few others have done it. Again, just mincing words at this point.
I\'m not optimistic about his Travers chances at all, given his somewhat brittle history both personally and with siblings, I think it is safe to expect a bounce here. Assuming it is temporary and he can get back to this level again, however, I think Santa Anita sets up very well for him as a hard dirt, speed-favoring track, like the ones he\'s run his superlative races over already.
\"Another way to look at this would be, how many horses have ever run a negative 4 at 3yrs old?\"
Dreaming of Julia did. Is she great?
I also find the debate intriguing.
One side contends that a horse needs results and accomplishment far above the norm to be legitimately called great.
The other side seems subjectively and fanatically invested in a good looking horse with a nice lyrical Italian name who has beaten a few mediocre fields claiming great is in the eyes of the beholder.
Since the first argument is logical but has no soul and the second argument has more passion than evidence I submit - Skip Away was my favorite Haskel winner in the last 30 years. He ran pretty fast with real competition. Didn\'t think of him as a Haskell winner or a 3 y/o sensation did ya. All you had to do was see him run live to grok great.
Lol...sounds like these Violence commercials they are running now.
The horse is fast and has talent. BUT he never ran or did anything at 2. He whiffed in his one Triple Crown race and.skipped the rest. Great? How many Golfers who never won a Major are considered great?
He did win the Tampa Derby. Something Slew O\'Gold didnt. Hang in there Tread. None of this is personal and its a fun debate. BTW is Wise Dan great. Or is he not because he runs on Turf. IDK looks.like a Pitbull to me!!!
Thanks for bringing Smarty up in this context--that three-month streak was just phenomenal. Even in losing the Belmont, he ran an eye-popping number. I think he gets overlooked a lot when people talk about the greats of the last couple of decades, and he hasn\'t left much of a legacy in the shed, but he never ran a bad one, and he did it at distances and in the slop as well as on dry.
Indeed. And, it will be very telling how Verazzano runs in the Travers. As easy a ride as he had in the Haskell, he should have no excuses for not showing up to run. He has big raw talent and showed it Sunday, though he definitely still has much to prove. I think the Haskel is by far the most impressive race he has put forth yet. I say that mostly because of his time relative to the other times on the day and the way in which he ran. The Travers will be a competitive field. With Orb coming back freshened and Palace Malice hitting his stride, Verazzano will get his chance to show what he is or isn\'t. I\'m glad it\'s a mile and a quarter. A true test. I just hope the track is fast and fair so there can be no excuses.
No, Pletcher isn\'t known for campaigning sturdy horses who consistently achieve great things. They have their big hits here and there and go off to start heavily promoted stud careers. Maybe that is just the business model his owners employ. Who knows. But indeed, if Verazzano is going to do anything special, he has to do it now. He has to show consistency. First the Travers, then the BC. SA should be his kind of track. There can be no excuses. If I were to bet on the connections past performances, I would say he won\'t make it. But after the Haskell, I am willing to give the horse the benefit of the doubt. I give him credit for his win. Let\'s see if he can carry it further.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tread-- I\'ve kinda stayed out of this one, but
> since it gives me a chance to show Pdub I\'m really
> not biased against him, I\'m going to stick my toe
> in.
>
> As I\'ve discussed here a lot (it came up about
> Zenyatta) ability and accomplishment are two
> different things. But no matter which yardstick
> you use here, Verazzano does not qualify as a
> great horse, and will not unless he does a LOT
> more.
>
> I haven\'t done the day yet but I suspect Beyer got
> it about right, he ran about a neg 4 in the
> Haskell. And he now has won two GI\'s.
>
> But if you want to see great 3yos, you don\'t have
> to go back 30 years. Take a look at the sheets or
> pp\'s for Smarty or Rachel, and not far behind are
> Point Given and Bernardini.
>
> If Verrazano runs that fast again in his next
> three starts, and/or wins the Travers, Gold Cup
> and Classic, we can start talking about whether
> he\'s a great horse. Right now he\'s a horse that
> has run great once or twice.
JB,
I\'ve never thought that. We\'ve disagreed on things (the Zenyatta back and forth, and my ongoing Mike Smith support) but you are pretty fair with the admonishments.
I will say, funny how I don\'t get too much crap about Smith anymore around these parts.
Gonna have to disagree there, we can wait for the figures, but running something in the neighborhood of a -4 is every bit of an excuse to have a lackluster effort next out in 4 weeks time, no matter how easy it looked visually. His performance in the Travers will not really be telling of anything, other than how solid and durable he is, which I think we are all already expecting is not going to be something he excels at. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised, who knows.
I would put a lot more credence in the Haskell performance if it was any trainer other than Pletcher. If Verranzo was trained by a regular \"hay and oats\" guy I would say it was a scintillating performance! I do remember what this guy did to that Elusive Quality colt that he got from Jerkens.His name escapes me, but he didn\'t even want to go in the gate for the Breeders Cup Classic and finished off the board. He had run two 100+ beyers in his first 4 starts. Pletcher got a 116 or 118 out of the horse in February of his 4yo season and that was his last brilliant effort. Mismanagement at its best!
Quality Road was on his way to stardom before Pletcher got him and he ran out of his skin at Gulfstream park to start his 4yo campaign.
Hey Tread, Hey Mako,
Well, I don\'t disagree with you guys either. History is certainly on your side.
What motivates me to hope? is that the horse was so well within himself. But then JV has never really gone to the whip with him. He is a big striding big horse who just might be coming into himself this fall. I think his raw talent is immense. But the connections don\'t inspire one to believe he will fulfill it.
What I can\'t understand about Pletcher is that with the top quality of stock he gets, why can\'t he keep a good horse around longer? I chalk it up to a very short sighted perspective and not a long term perspective - which is a big problem with the industry in general. And PED\'s are part of that. Drugs will never enhance the gene pool but they will degrade it and I for one would argue they already have.
Quality Road - great example. He had did have chronic foot issues with JJ and for whatever reason (short-sighted impatience?) the owners gave the horse to Pletcher. And in short order the horse was retired having one not much else. I was left hoping and wanting then, too. He was a really really fine horse who never came close to his full potential. At the time, I thought I, well, can\'t wait to see his babies run and I still look forward to that.
No, all things considered, history says Verazzano won\'t go on to do great things. And certainly won\'t run as a 4yo with these connections. If he doesn\'t make it the Travers, after such an easy win, that will speak volumes.
But I am at least hoping to see if he can fulfill his potential somewhat more against a tougher field at 1 1/4. I want to see a good competitive top level race, leaving less questions unanswered.
Can\'t wait!
I don\'t think a failure in the Haskell speaks volumes, it just makes him a normal horse. I can\'t remember any horse running a neg 4 at a route and then repeating it within 4 weeks, other than maybe Ghostzapper. And when he ran a neg4 at 3yrs old (albeit in a sprint) he was on the shelf for 9 months after that.
While we are on the subject of Ghostzapper and some of the other horses TGJB mentioned in his rebuttal, lets keep in mind that almost all of those mentioned were during the \"steroid era\", up to and including Big Brown. This undoubtedly would have something to do with their increased comparative durability.
No, I mean if he is a non-entry for the Travers - that would speak volumes to me. For example, if he searches for an easier race then the connections feel he isn\'t up to the task of facing the other big boys in the big race. Still no knock on the horse. He may not want 1 1/4 as much as the connections want another easy win. and maybe they fear a big bounce in a big race. But, if he runs in the Travers, win or lose, it will be a more competitive and exciting race, and more questions will have their answers. I would like to see that. I would hate to think that the connections spent his tank on the Haskell.
Would it be wrong to say that even if he bounces from a neg 4, he could still be competitive in the Travers?
And, your point about the \"steroid era\" is especially excellent and well taken.