A friend faxed to me a page from the new Sports Illustrated, with an excerpt from Pete Rose\'s book:
\"Throughout my adult life,I still thought of myself as an average Joe. When I went to the track, I felt the same excitement I had as a kid. Even though I became famous, I could walk into the clubhouse at any track in the country and be equal to anyone else. Whether a guy is a $2 or $2,000 bettor, we\'ll share the same information. We may not stand in the same line to place our bets at the window, but we\'ll talk about track bias and speed figures, and Derby and Breeders\' Cup prospects. We\'ll be talking the same language. And when it comes to gambling on horses, everyone has his own system-- whether it\'s Thoro-Graph sheets or just plain old superstition. None are foolproof. That\'s why they call it gambling. If it were a sure thing, it wouldn\'t be any fun.\"
At least he didn\'t say \"I owe it all to Thoro-Graph\".
Some years ago we had some dealings with the guy who used to own Turfway, whose name I have forgotten, and who used to send it through the windows pretty good. When the Rose stuff broke, part of the story was that this guy and Pete had hit some sign jobs together. Other than that, this is news to me.
The only way they should let him into the Hall of Fame is if he agrees that they can carve A**HOLE under his name on the plaque. And to anticipate the obvious argument, they can go ahead and carve it under Ty Cobb\'s name too. HP
TGJB---
If I remember correctly, Rose nailed a $220K pick 6 at Turfway back in the late 80\'s.
Mickey Rivers used to have Sparky Lyle call up the result line from the bullpen. I\'m sitting in the bleachers at the Stadium one afternoon and Lyle is yelling names, numbers, and mutual payoffs over the centerfield fence.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
I\'m pretty sure the pk6 was closer to $600k, that Rose was part of a syndicate, & that using a 10 percenter to cash the ticket is what lead to the criminal charge that landed him in jail. I also want to say that Jerry Carroll is the former owner of Turfway. My couple of interesting encounters caused me to conclude that Charlie Hustle is an excellent handicapper who is almost as intense at the track as he used to be on the baseball diamond.
I\'ve seen Mr.Rose a few times at Foxwoods Casino in Ct.He was more than \'intense\' when FuPeg won the Derby.
As was I, particularly after 6 close 2nds on the undercard, including a 14-1 Hollendorfer turf to dirt horse I\'m pretty sure went by the name of Mula Gula. The intensity dissipated when I was pickpocketed on my way back to the so-called Corporate Village. It\'s been a big problem at CD on Derby weekend which has been swept under the rug for many yrs.
Mall--
I think a large percentage of us who play this game have an above average level of competitiveness.
Look at some of the athletes who have been known to place a wager or two: ROSE, JORDAN, MICKEY RIVERS, LOU PINIELLA. Even \'ol DON ZIMMER (who is so competetive he wants to fight people at the age of 72.) All tremendous competitors.
But I agree with the idea that Rose is probably a sharp handicapper. Unfortunately, he also has a compulsion to bet on just about anything that moves. Betting on sports/casino gambling makes very little sense to me to begin with (who wants to lay 5.50 to 5), especially when you consider the value that exists in thoroughbred wagering.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Aside from being a good handicapper Rose, at least when I have seen him in the restaurant at Calder, also seems to quite successful at being accompanied by some of the local TALENT in So Florida\'s version of SCORES.
Don\'t ask me how I know where they worked.
If he was such a good handicapper how did he manage to go bankrupt, despite the fact that he has been non-stop whoring and signing anything he could since he retired? Pete Rose would sign autographs at a funeral. If there\'s been a buck to make without getting a job he\'s made it. And he busted out anyway! I bet he\'s just a loser who jumps up and down a lot when he wins.
As for the ladies Silver Charm refers to, they go with anyone who pays. HP
From Terms Of Endearment:
Nicholson-- \"I think we should have a drink.\"
Maclain-- \"To break the ice?\"
Nicholson-- \"No, to kill the bug up your ass.\"
Hey pal, kid keeping you up at night?
HP,
So thats how he did it.
I thought it was because of his good looks and haircut.
Rose was accompanied by a younger woman in very tight & inappropriate clothing with an extraordinary, if surgically enhanced, figure when I met him for the 1st time at Kee. According to the fellow I was with, who used the same bookmaker as Rose, the woman was an ex-stripper who had had a child not 14 days before the meeting. When by happenstance I ran into him 4 yrs later at an invitation only(I wasn\'t there because I got one) handicapping contest in Lake Tahoe, he was with the same woman, who as far as I could tell had gotten younger since I 1st saw her. Since I wasn\'t in the contest, which was limited to 10 players & had a $25k 1st prize, I decided to help the youngest player, who was tied with Rose for 1st thorugh most of the day. It was a long & gruelling affair, as these things often are, but hours after it was over when I went back to the racebook to check some score or other, Rose was still there, at that point handicapping & betting on dog races. If it wasn\'t the IRS, that\'s the kind of conduct which can lead to financial ruin over any extended period.
Mall,
Are you referring to the:
A.) Broads
B.) Betting/NonStop
C.) Both
If there was any Booze mixed in, he NEVER HAD A CHANCE IN HELL.
Rose cannot blame his situation on the fairer sex. The main reason I mentioned his companion was that I thought the woman you saw him with might be the same woman I saw him with. His wife.
I\'m not in a position to condemn anyone for living his or her life as a protagonist, & am not qualified to render a medical diagnosis, but what I was implying was possible is the subject of great debate in today\'s papers. If Rose is in fact a compulsive gambler, my reading on the subject leads me to believe that there is no level of handicapping skill which will save him from the poorhouse. If, on the other hand, his problems are related to our confiscatory friends at the IRS, a subject I do know a little about, perhaps gambling is not as big a problem as everyone is making it out to be.
I do know this. It\'s now clear that the issue in Rose\'s mind is becoming a major league manager again. On that question, the interviewer on telvision last night, & the well intentioned gentlemen who performed the initial investigation, have not addressed the central issue: How did Rose decide which days to bet & not bet on the Reds. Gambling is a game of edges & Rose has what seems to me to be a well deserved reputation for taking every one he could get. His vague claims that his plays were never influenced by inside information & that his managerial decisions were made independent of his bets ring hollow to me.
He prolly can\'t make the hall on character and sportsmanship either, but he\'s there. I think Pete Rose should be allowed back in baseball.
If anyone is interested in reading it, the following is a letter I sent recently to several voting members who had stated they would never vote for Pete Rose\'s induction into the Hall of Fame:
Dear Mr. _______,
I don\'t get to vote upon who is admitted to Baseball\'s Hall of Fame. I wish I did, because there is a historic player who I witnessed that I would surely vote for. He was the epitome of give all baseball and he played that way every day for two solid decades. A lapse of judgement ruined his reputation. Some players have used illegal drugs, but detection and rehabilitation gave them the chance to alter their life styles and allow them a second and even third chance. Some baseball players have utilized steroids. A large number of steroid users were recently detected in random screenings and now I understand the entire league will be subjected to testing. I wonder...has anyone contemplated how the use of steroids can damage the integrity of the game? Are the records modern players set meaningful? Is history being robbed of legitimate accomplishments? Does anyone wonder what the young people think when players like Bonds and Sosa and McGuire and Canseco are rumored to have used steroids to perhaps alter the game? What about Sosa\'s corked bat? What about Gaylord Perry\'s spitball? Is it permissible to cheat in baseball?
There was a baseball commissioner named \"Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis\". (Please forgive my spelling errors on names, I\'m atrocious with them) Landis banned eight players from the 1919 Chicago White Sox from baseball for allegedly fixing a World Series. One of those players is said to have turned down the money to throw the series but ostensibly he was banned from baseball along with the others for not revealing the offer. This ban occurred even though seven were acquitted of the misdeeds in district court. (One didn\'t face trial per my source, I\'m assuming the one that didn\'t accept the bribe) They faced \"double jeopardy\" and all eight lost out to the politics of the times. I don\'t believe there was an allegation that any of those players bet either for or against their team. However, Judge Landis wanted to be sure that in the wake of the scandal that all contributing causes were barred and betting on baseball was one of them.
Its 85 years later. When we buy life insurance we gamble that we will die prematurely and that our families will win our bet. We go to school or take jobs gambling that the investment will pay off down the road. Though today many corportions in an effort to save expense lay off their older employees in their late fifties. Life is full of risk so we do our best in placing our bets. In 1919 Las Vegas didn\'t exist. It didn\'t exist for Joe Jackson and it didn\'t exist for our great grandfathers either. There was no such thing as a \"State Lottery\" or \"Powerball\". There was no horseracing \"Triple Crown\". There were no whirling slot machines on Indian Reservations. Landis for all his \"vision\" didn\'t see fit to allow black athletes into the game. We are far removed from 1919. Its more than generational. Which is not to say that everything that has evolved has been for our betterment. Addictive gambling isn\'t and steroids aren\'t either. But we certainly live in a far different time.
Judge Landis would probably not vote to allow Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame, but he also banned one of the Black Sox despite his refusal to take a bribe. Landis had a scandal to quash and he may have quashed a couple of innocents along the way. It was a different era. When you go to vote I believe you will consider Judge Landis\'s iron fist as it related to the scandal of the time. I believe you\'ll consider how our society has grown tolerant of mistakes when a genuine effort is made address them. We no longer expect perfections from our athletic idols. I hope you will ask yourself:
\"Did Pete Rose do anything at anytime that was anything short of attempting to win?\"
If you can answer that question with a \"yes\" I would be flabbergasted, but should the day come when you are considering Pete Rose\'s induction into the Hall of Fame all that is really important is that you ask it.
Pete Rose bet on baseball and he bet on his own team. He shouldn\'t have done it, but do you ban someone from the Hall of Fame upon the basis of a 1919 scandal edict and 1919 ethics or do you consider modern ethics, modern application of Landis\'s edict and actual harm done? If induction is upon the basis of 1919 ethics who gets admitted to the Hall of Fame?
God Bless,
Chuckles the Clown :)
Chuckles wrote: \"Did Pete Rose do anything at anytime that was anything short of attempting to win?\"
The answer is that no one other than Pete Rose himself knows the true answer to that question. What we do know is that broke the anti-gambling rule that every participant in the game is well aware of and he did it knowing the penalty. We also know that in doing so he put himself in the position of having great incentive to do something short of trying to win. (Don\'t give me the \"he only bet on his team to win\" line. We all know about \"darkening form\" to improve the odds.) So his motives can not be trusted. And he has admitted that his words can not be trusted.
He did the crime and now he must do the time. And the time is life. Keep him out of the game and out of the Hall of Fame.
Never underestimate the clever minds of dedicated horseplayers. I never contemplated \"darkening form\" to bet upon baseball matchups. You\'re apparently saying \"making the Reds look bad for the chance to bet upon them another day when he managed with greater zeal?\" I suppose with a person of horrible character anything is possible, but I don\'t think Pete Rose is that type of person. I think he\'s very much like many here. I think he likes to gamble some. Realistically, I don\'t think a manager can darken the form of pitchers and hitters unless they are in on the bet also. There is no allegation that Pete Rose fixed games or managed with less than an all out effort to win. If there was a scintilla of that kind of evidence I\'m assured we would have heard of it.
Pete Rose bet on baseball in a era when betting on baseball is legal, although at the time he did bet with a bookie is my understanding. He bet on his team to win and he broke Judge Landis\'s rule. But baseball is filled with illegality and other rule breakers and those players are allowed to play the game. If Pete Rose had fixed a game I would fully understand his lifetime exclusion, but that is not the case. Without fixing games all Pete Rose did was break a rule. He broke a rule like so many of the steroid users break rules.
He should have known better. It was an extraordinary lapse of judgement, not unlike the lapse of judgement that others in baseball have made and been forgiven for in the recent past. This isn\'t a Black Sox scandal. Its about one man that bet on his team to win. Judge him upon that.
CtC
A manager can influence a baseball game in many ways. One key way is in deciding when to play and when to rest certain players. It\'s not difficult to conjecture that a manager with a bet on a game might be more apt to not rest any of his key players that day. And he might be more apt to use his closer, maybe even bring him in in the 8th instead of the 9th. Maybe use him for the 3rd day in a row when normally he would not. On the other hand if a manager didn\'t have a bet on a game he might be more apt to pick that day to pull some of his regulars, not use his closer, etc. The existence of the bet is just too likely to exert some influence on the manager and that effects the integrity of the game. Even if the manager only bets on his own team. MLB is wise to have their anti-gambling rule and to have the lifetime ban as the penalty. It should be one strike and you\'re out ont his one.
Here\'s a guy who made millions dressing up in pajamas and chasing a ball around. They told him, \"here\'s your uniform Pete, and by the way don\'t bet on baseball.\" He COULDN\'T DO IT!
What difference does it make if he bet on his own team, or if it influenced anything or his managerial decision or whatever? The rule doesn\'t say, \"you can bet on your own team to win\" does it?
In the real world, you get fired, you live in a box on the street, and then you die. No book, no nothing. I don\'t see any reason why Pete Rose deserves a better deal than Mr. Fired-And-Lives-In-A-Box because he played until he was 100 to break Cobb\'s record, moving on to a tough life of signing his name and blowing his money at the track. He accepted the ban. He\'s didn\'t apologize or admit because he\'s not \"built that way.\" Good riddance and case closed.
Pete Rose had to bet on BASEBALL. There weren\'t enough other things for him to bet on! He will be joined in the Idiot Hall of Fame shortly by Jayson Williams, ex-Net, a guy who couldn\'t handle his non-job of having $80 million, living in a mansion and getting drunk with his friends without SHOOTING someone. I can\'t wait to read HIS book!
The fans are running from Rose according to every poll I\'ve seen of late, so maybe there\'s hope for America after all, Chuckles\' letter notwithstanding.
And no Jerry, the bug up my ass WILL NOT DIE. If drinking could kill it, it would have been dead a long time ago.
HP
First of all, Ty Cobb played as long as Methusala to set the record Pete Rose broke. The same number of seasons. Cobb missed his share of ballgames in his 24 year career. Granted the season was 8 games shorter.
I don\'t think the pitching of 1880-1930 was near the quality of today\'s pitching. Look at baseball history and the number of ancient era 40 and yes 50 game winners. Ty Cobb certainly had nice stats in his era, so did Favorite Trick in his.
As far as the Hall goes, Cobb was a notoriously poor sport and of poor character. He sharpened his spikes to maim opponents, he went into the stands and beat up a fan, he beat up a cigarette girl. He drank and beat his wife. In 1919 there was a gambling allegation against him as well, although it was ultimately dropped. Had America come to it\'s senses when Ty Cobb was inducted into the Hall of Fame?
Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were both barred by baseball at one time as well.
Its not about good then and bad now. Its not about a fall from grace. Its about the evolution of society. Its neither good nor bad. Its just different. In 1919 it was acceptable for a man to strike his wife and unacceptable to gamble. Today even government has its hands in gambling and it acceptable to gamble and unacceptable to strike your wife. I think we have evolved enough to give Pete Rose the chance that we give so many others. He\'s served his time.
Keep in mind the gambling incident was subsequent to his playing career and he bet on his team to win.
CtC
Last four seasons played
Cobb - 24 seasons, started at age 19
525 hits
averages - .378, .339, .357 and .323
Rose - 25 seasons, started at age 21
266 hits
.365 (29 games), .259, .264 and .219
Rose broke the record by stinking up the joint. Anyone who saw him play in those years knows he STANK beyond belief! You can say Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame based on his playing career, but in my opinion it has little to do with him breaking Ty Cobb\'s record and more to do with the great 15 year stretch he had before the awful last \"record breaking\" years.
HP
Sure Pete Rose belongs in the HOF based on his career as a player. Just as much as Ty Cobb belongs. BUT Pete Rose disqualified himself by breaking the cardinal rule of baseball. He bet on a baseball game while an active participant. And he did it as both a player and as a manager. So far, he has only admitted to the latter. And he did it illegally. He MAY have only bet on his own team. But then again maybe that\'s only the part to which has admitted so far. Maybe we\'ll eventually learn that he bet against his team as well. But whether he did or he didn\'t is ultimately not relevant. He broke the cardinal rule of baseball. He\'e out of baseball and the HOF as a result. MLB should keep it that way.
Theres absolutely no allegation that Pete Rose bet on his team as a player or that he bet against them. The facts are that he bet on his team to win as a manager and Dodd and Giamatti (sic?)had some stubs in his handwriting to confirm those wagers. They involved the Reds to win. Why does everyone want to make a monster of Pete Rose?
Chuckles, you\'ve lost your mind. Allowing Rose to manage again? You\'re kidding, right? Geeeze.
1. First and foremost, Rose is a welcher. If he had paid his marks, like a good citizen, no one is the wiser [just like Jordan] Instead we know he\'a a big jagoff.
2. What a perfect cover for a player/gambler: \"Charlie Hustle\". How much of the hustle or O-fers because he laid the wood on the Reds to win/lose? We\'ll never know, now will we? I choose to believe he did and nothing that lying SOB says will ever convince me otherwise.
3. Rose says he never inquired about the health of pitchers, players with his connections in the managerial ranks. More bullcrap.
Hal McCoy, longtime sportswriter for Dayton Daily News, in an interview on a Chgo sports talker, revealed how he was in Rose\'s office when he was talking to Sparky inquiring about a pitcher going for the Tigers that day and jotting down notes in his infamous \"red book\".with Rose saying \"he liked to stay on top of things\" with a smile. Hal didn\'t think much about it back then, but now we know.
\"Charlie ME, ME, ME\" intentionally ruined Molitor and Eckersley\'s big day. Hopefully, that day will never come his way.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8661-2004Jan11.html
If the article is true, Rose is a bigger moron than we know.
Amazing article. Thanks for posting it. Keep him OUT! HP
Chuckles: Where have you been? Of course there are numerous allegations that Pete Rose was betting on baseball while he was a player. He just hasn\'t admitted that part yet. But why does it matter? He has confessed to betting while he was a manager. That is all we need to know.
Bdsheets, all that story link does is confirm that MLB didn\'t view Pete\'s rule breaking as deserving of lifetime banishment in this age. It proves my point. Although I would point out it comes from the mouth of John Dowd and theres plenty of dirty air surrounding him so I take some of it with a grain of salt. If the offer made was actually as presented I think Pete made a mistake not accepting it. But what if the league wanted him to give up his equine interests in this deal? Did you know he owned horses? If he didn\'t fix any games why should he grovel before the commissioner and renounce his horse interests?
As far as intentionally ruining Molitor and Eckersly\'s big day, you don\'t seriously mean he planned to detract from it do you? I couldn\'t believe that story when I first read it. All it indicates is the rabid nature of Rose\'s detractors. They\'ll latch onto anything they can to throw more mud upon him. I almost think he\'s a democratic presidential candidate...lol. But lets be real. Paul Molitor and Dennis Ecekersly are mere historical footnotes to what Rose accomplished. They really don\'t matter. He\'s served his time.
CtC