Mr Brown
To insinuate a guy is cheating because your numbers do not figure a horse he claimed is ridiculous. Mike has been over 20Pct on his life on any claim, whether its a stake horse or a cheap POS. The guy is simply better than anybody else doing what he does.
There is no magic moving a horse like Dark Cove up, Mr Brown, besides a voodoo number what do you know about Dark Cove? Do you know what was wrong with him, do you know why Mike sent him to the farm for 8 months? If you don\'t know the answer to either of those its completely irresponsible to even insinuate cheating.
I assume you watch this game Mr Brown, I\'m assuming besides making figures and money off the public you pay attention to this game, and business. Do you know Mike? Do you know anything about Mike, Do you know anything about his program? Again, if not then you shouldn\'t be throwing around accusations that are completely unsubstantiated.
I will say this Mr Brown.... I have been in and out of these barns. I have seen all these top guys, how they do it, there isn\'t a guy in the business as sharp as Mike. You may find a guy who\'s more personable, but you will never EVER find one as sharp. Threes nothing going on over at Track side but a guy who outworks his peers and truly has a clue what hes doing.
You have an owner who aims to win a title at a meet and will run horses down your throat. You have a jock that\'s riding at the top of his game, and at the top of anybody Else\'s game. You have a trainer who\'s head and shoulders above any guy doing this, and possibly any guy who\'s ever done this...What should be the outcome of that equation? 5 Percent? I\'m surprised Mike isn\'t 40pct when I see how stupid the rest of his peers are. How clueless they are. Standing around a rail drinking coffee not even watching their horses. Not that it matters, they wouldn\'t know what they were watching anyhow.
You should give Mike a call and talk to him Mr Brown. Let him explain it to you so you (as an insider, or big player) understand exactly why these horses get better with him. Then you wont say things so slanderous, and ridiculous.
Yikes! OJ is innocent and the two guys in Boston are just being framed!
Thank you, I understand things much better. Except I don\'t understand why these things just took effect recently, why the recent PERFORMANCES are so much better, measurably, than he got before, in many case with the same horses.
After we get past the Derby I\'ll post his Kee runners and let the fun begin.
Only one thing makes him better, Performance Enhancing Drugs. The equine version of what Lance Armstrong was using.Until the labs determine the exact version of the steroid they are using they will never uncover it in a drug screening.
Look at what is going on in England.The trainer for Goldophin was just given an eight year suspension for steroid use.Today in the DRF another world class trainer has come under scrutiny for the same violations. Anyone with any knowledge of racing knows the position of Godophin\'s owner and the embarrassment this has caused.
Cheating has become so commonplace through steroids that owners and trainers actually believe they are doing nothing illegal.The days of training with just exercise, hay and oats is over.The industry needs to provide the betting public with full disclosure on what these horses are being treated for. The model seems to work fine in Hong Kong.Without some degree of transparency this industry is doomed.
Are we the betting public believed to be so naive that the \"super trainers\" have suddenly in the last two years discovered revolutionary new training regimens?
Post his numbers from all claims, its also important to post who hes claiming these horses from. Its also crucial to know how Mike runs his program vs the guys he claims from.
Keep in mind Mr Brown, Mr Ramsey runs them down your throat at Keeneland, and Mrs Ramsey isn\'t in great health. That meet alone was extremely important to everybody in the barn. Not for Mike, for his best client, and his wife. Its not as simple as a figure...... there are so many variables. They loaded up at GSP with the sole purpose of dominating Keeneland. Its not just a wing ding crap shoot, those horses are prepped and pointed. Mike is one of the few guys who can still do that, zero in on one and make sure they are ready for optimal run. That has nothing to do with any magic potion, it has everything to do with Mike being head and shoulders above his peer group.
I had 3 guys come to me with 3500 dollars 6 years ago. We bought one horse, this 3 man group is still on the games money, and turned a steady profit with Mike. Before they transitioned over they were bleeding money ready to be out of business. Hes a small time owners dream.
Mako
I think you as the betting public are doing yourself a great disservice if you actually believe that. If you have any idea how it works on a daily basis you would change your tune. Why dont you claim one with him instead of betting. You ll get the vet bill for it. You can post it on here. Mr Brown said he claims some, you guys can be partners. There is a stake horse running at Calder for 25k, He just got drummed by 12. He may be in for 16 next time he goes. Mr Browns numbers will find him, or you can message me and Ill tell you which one he is. We can all take a piece.
Another guy with the drop downs.
Since you missed the earlier memo-- we measure things entirely differently here, and FAR more accurately, than those that look at wins. Running against inferior competition makes your chance of WINNING better, but does not make you FASTER. When we post his data you will see these horses suddenly got FASTER.
Get it?
There has been a ton of stuff on this, dozens of posts, you are very late to the party and way behind the conversation. Catch up on your reading. And my strong suggestion is to wait until after the Derby when we post his Kee sheets to comment further. That assumes you have used our data (or similar) and will have some idea what you\'re looking at.
Mr Brown
My fear is I \"get it\" more than you do. That\'s a big problem because these guys seem to think you have some superior opinion on this situation, which you do not at all. Selling sheets does not make you a chemist,a vet, or any other designation on EPO, or doping. I may be late to the party here, but I have an extremely valid opinion. Im speaking from first hand experience, not trying to be a dick, just giving you the true side of the story, opposed to just making up some wild scenario, or accusation. It is completely reckless to lead the lemmings to a judgement.
I understand this game well, extremely well. I hope to stick around here a while and teach everybody a thing or two about this great game we all enjoy so much.
Do you understand how to read numbers and what across the board jump ups imply?
Yes I understand every aspect of this business, gambling included
Do you understand a horse going from a Darrin Miller, or a Ken Mcpeek to a guy like Maker. Have you been in those barns, all 3, yes or no?
Sell crazy someplace else. We\'re all stocked up here.
Phil
I think its crazy to levy an absolute opinion on somebody without first hand knowledge of the person, or the situation. If that makes me crazy, so be it. Id much prefer to talk about horses, races, or claiming horses. I know why Mikes horses move up, and its not because of EPO, or pixie dust. Its because the guy is a true master of his craft. Its like Lebron playing pick up hoops at the YMCA, what can the outcome be besides complete domination?
How about horses going from Maker to Maker? Older horses with years of established figures, jumping up at the same time, running tops or new tops. Like the horse this string is named for. They suddenly became faster?
You are way out of your depth. This is not the backstretch. But it\'s that time of year, everyone shows up here.
Tread-- in thinking about that top/new top thing, it\'s even more striking because they\'re almost all older horses, and on synth and turf.
Mr Brown
First of all DC was trained by Mcpeek and had a major hole, he was given a lot of time because Mike knew what he was. Prior to that you have worst turf trainer in the country who never stretched him out or had the forethought to put him on grass in Zito, and then you have Mcpeek. So are we to assume in his seasons prior to Maker he reached his potential?
Also this is a horse who needs that extra distance, hes quirky, and that distance hit him square. How many horses in the Elk were in top form. Attfield breaks down, Ioya bigtime is a shell of his previous years form, Al Khalil is older and has lost a step. So lets take those 3 out of the equation, who logically do you use in there? A horse that even at the age of 6 has never been squeezed or established losers, for loser connections?
Mr Brown, Im not out of depth trust me. I don\'t see how a guy who follows the game with the vigor you do cant recognize the difference in Maker, vs a Mcpeek or Zito
I do see the difference. That\'s the point. And 2 years ago when it was McPeek who was getting the jumpups at Kee and Maker was just another trainer I saw that too.
Maker had Dark Cove for several races before this one, and he didn\'t run anywhere near the figure he ran now. And again, the competition has nothing to do with this-- until you understand that you don\'t belong in this conversation. Seriously.
Since you\'re there, who was Maker\'s vet at Kee? Does Ramsey have his own? Nothing to hide, right?
\"But I\'ve met Mike Maker and he is such a nice guy, he would never do that.....\"
Badride1, you don\'t know it yet but you directly on par with the Lance Armstrong apologists. Your blind loyalty is your contribution to the destruction of this game. Congratulations.
So by your logic, if a (human) sprinter goes from running the 100 meters at 10.3 seconds for 20 straight races to suddenly running a 9.7 and winning a gold medal, I have to actually be on the track racing against him to realize that something is fishy there?
Also, you keep saying how Maker is such a huge upgrade over McPeek. In 2010 when McPeek won the fall training title at Keeneland while Maker was 14th in the standings, or Spring 2011 when McPeek went 14/35 and Maker was 7/44, McPeek seemed to know a hell of a lot. Funny how suddenly this year McPeek is clueless and golly gee, ol\' Mikey Maker just HAD to improve any horse taken from McPeek. Why was it the opposite just two years ago---maybe you weren\'t in the barn then monitoring Maker\'s \"genius\"?
I never said anything about I know him and hes a nice guy. I said any accusation of doping without knowing first hand is ignorant. Its wildly inaccurate, and extremely slanderous. The downfall of this great game isn\'t because of the trainers, its because there is not one uniform governing body, a system of checks and balances. The afghans police themselves, you see how that works. The NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, all have a governing body. Horse racing should have the same. You would think with money being bet, and integrity being of utmost importance that would be a focal point, its not and has never been. That sir, is the reason the game is being destroyed. Not because Mike Maker had a good Keeneland meet running well trained horses, against inferior horses and connections.
They should all be tested. If you tested all of them Mike would probably be 45 percent and that is no stretch
> Not because Mike Maker had a good Keeneland meet
> running well trained horses, against inferior
> horses and connections.
^^^ You still have absolutely NO CLUE what the hell we\'re talking about. You better quit now because you are a hysterically out of your league on this subject.
>
> They should all be tested. If you tested all of
> them Mike would probably be 45 percent and that is
> no stretch
LOL. Only until his secret Oats recipe gets out.
You aren\'t comparing apples to apples. Id liken it more to taking Dekimbe Mutumbo out of the congo and onto the court. Hes going to live in a hut and make 2 dollars a year in the congo, potential never realized. Hes 7 foot tall, you bring him here, hook him up with some people who can coach and he becomes a prolific NBA shot blocker. Dark Cove was always well meant, the talent was always there. Shame the previous owners had to watch it develop
For the record Mcpeek did a good job with Darkcove. He broke one off in Mike initially, but thats the luxury of having a guy like Ramsey, he was given ample time to get the horse right. If you claimed him you would have been running back for 10k and hoping to get out. Thats how good horses become starter eligible, money had a big advantage.
Keep reading you will learn something from me if you pay attention. Im not out of my league, you are well out of our league, sir
With a few exceptions on the board here, I don\'t think TGJB, myself, or most others have said anything slanderous at all and have not outright said he is using illegal drugs.
What we have said is, from a pure function of data analysis, that his recent performance on TG figures is WILDLY out of line with both his own personal history and the history of any other trainer I can remember over such a large sample size. There may be other examples that someone could find with some more research, but it is factual to say that the data shown on TG sheets for this trainer is highly unusual and based on that fact, it is not an unreasonable opinion to say it is deserving of discussion/explanation.
Others have taken that point and outright accused of drugs, I\'m not doing that without proof, but will say that the horsesht explanations you and others have attempted to provide here have not adequately answered the question yet of \"why/how\" this is happening, and as a horseplayer, I would like to know more about it.
That is exactly what I am trying to explain. As somebody who is a self professed horse player you do not get to see the difference in the trainers firsthand. You read the form, or you read the sheets, but you would not recognize the difference in these outfits unless you were around them. Many of us take the word of the press, or insiders as absolute truth...It is not. You would probably find it very hard to bet a lot of connections you currently bet if you had a first hand account of what actually took place.
This ridiculous point has already been addressed. Maker has played second fiddle to many of the trainers you are bad-mouthing here during previous meets. If the point were at all relevant, he would have been better than these guys consistently.
And Maker got crazy better since 2011, and McPeek got much worse. Got it.
Okay, that\'s enough. You\'re filling a serious board with nonsense, stop posting on this subject. But before you go please answer my questions about the vets. Nothing to hide, right?
You are a joke, defending another joke. It\'s pathetic watching really.
I don\'t think there is anything funny about slandering somebodies name, Shakrah
Im not sure I understand your question Mr Brown. What I would recommend is you call Mike yourself Mr Brown. Pay him a visit at trackside, see what they do over there.
What is your question on the vets? What is \"crazy better\", the guy has had crappy horses in the derby, what 4 years in a row? Look at the plugs hes gotten into the starting gate spotting them right. He gets run out of everything, has since he left Wayne. As soon as he had some shooters the guy has done nothing but win. He didn\'t come out of a program stand at Canterbury. This is a lifelong horseman, who any peer would say exactly what I have said. The guy is sharp
why dont you call him and express your man crush.....like all these guys they stay hot until they get busted...then it gets sporadic.....so, assmussen was a genius a few years back? and now hes clueless? I believe he is a lifetime horsemen too, right?
Mr Brown has asked me not to comment on this thread so I will not comment on Mike anymore. Its his board Id rather be around to help everybody make money. If you want to bash me do it privately Ill take the heat there. As for ass....
I think Ass really went down hill when all the poly tracks were implemented. His horses just do not run over it anywhere, ever. I think that has as much to do with his % being down as anything else.
Badride1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Ass really went down hill when all the
> poly tracks were implemented. His horses just do
> not run over it anywhere, ever. I think that has
> as much to do with his % being down as anything
> else.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. This is great. I\'m in stitches.
You\'re right, you don\'t understand what I mean.
But you do know what a vet is, and if you\'re spending time at Maker\'s barn you know who his vet is.
There\'s so many good tidbits here, i\'ll try and sum it all up, Dan Patrick style. What have we learned today Seton?
1) Jerry Brown is now Mr Brown, i suggest you guys start addressing him properly.
2) Mike Maker works hard.
3) Thorograph numbers are now called \"voodoo numbers\"
4) Mike Maker is a nice guy.
5) Many trainers just stand by the rail, drinking coffee, while not even watching.
6) Oj Simpson might be innocent.
7) Ken McPeek is clueless.
8) You can\'t get a degree in Chemistry by selling \'sheets\'
9) Mike Maker would win 45% if the testing was better
10) Mike Maker doesnt use Pixie Dust.
11) If you don\'t want to give bold and talkative posters amnesia, please refrain from asking which vet Mike Maker currently uses.
... you forgot 12, the nice old lady in the wheelchair...
What a cluster $#%^&* of a string about nothing!!!!
For Christ sake its DERBY WEEK and this is one of the few places in the world where some people actually turn a profit betting on horses day to day for years.
Gimme a FREAKIN BREAK ALREADY.
Hay and Oats for all!!!
Frank D.
Badride1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You aren\'t comparing apples to apples. Id liken
> it more to taking Dekimbe Mutumbo out of the congo
> and onto the court. Hes going to live in a hut
> and make 2 dollars a year in the congo, potential
> never realized. Hes 7 foot tall, you bring him
> here, hook him up with some people who can coach
> and he becomes a prolific NBA shot blocker. Dark
> Cove was always well meant, the talent was always
> there. Shame the previous owners had to watch it
> develop
>
> For the record Mcpeek did a good job with
> Darkcove. He broke one off in Mike initially,
> but thats the luxury of having a guy like Ramsey,
> he was given ample time to get the horse right.
> If you claimed him you would have been running
> back for 10k and hoping to get out. Thats how
> good horses become starter eligible, money had a
> big advantage.
How is you saying McPeek is terrible and Maker a genius, and my giving facts showing the opposite was true two years ago not comparing apples to apples? You just dodged everything I posted because you have no explanation for it. It\'s not about just one horse---it\'s about a pattern where Maker couldn\'t make horses improve in incredible ways and now he suddenly can. So the \"lifetime horseman\" thing doesn\'t wash---wasn\'t he a \"lifetime\" horseman before?
Dark Cove is nominated for the Dixie Stakes on Preakness Day, 9 furlongs on the
grass. Anyone know if he is running?
Covello plans to win that race, he might know.
hah, in this case, I am not worried about the competition.
Wise Dan, Little Mike and Point of Entry aren\'t nominated and as far as I am concerned, those are the only three that Warrior can\'t beat if he\'s doing well and he gets the right trip.
He breezed absolutely awesome this morning but we still have to make sure everything is good with him for the rest of the week or we won\'t run him.
If he\'s in the gate on Saturday, you can all bet him with confidence but this horse is so quirky that he\'s never more than 50/50 to make the race even after entries are taken. He can breeze like Secretariat one day and then you come in the next morning and you wouldn\'t play him in a 35k claimer!
You scratched him at churchill and he looked good to me and I was going to use him with wise dan.
Good luck Jim.
While POE was not nominated, Shug did nominate two decent runners from his \"second
string\", Boisterous and Data Link.
As I stated previously, I am looking for fast/firm, full fields and a little more
chaos on the undercard than we had on Derby Day.
Sounds like Shug is sending Imaging out in the Dixie. Would assume Data Link will be pointed elsewhere.
http://www.drf.com/news/belmont-park-point-entry-works-toward-manhattan