4 wins from 9 starts....Have they adjusted to the new testing or does churchill derby weekend test different?
His numbers at Keeneland last year weren\'t so bad. At Churchill he posted ZERO wins. Zero. Two meets--Zero wins. Don\'t let those on here let you believe he just doesn\'t point for any of the races there---he has five, maybe six going in one of their races on the first Saturday of May and three I believe in the ladies day race on the first Friday of May.
I\'m not arguing magical, untestable drug like miff proclaims but at the same time....its obvious folks, this is a joke. Something\'s not right. This isn\'t just good ol hard work on the backside. We all know it. But you were warned....Doc was just at his barn the other day.
Yes, in Illinois too,\"doc\" must be omnipresent,TAP horse just ran away at Hawthorne.
Just solid work ethic and training.
No, fast horses!
Miff, only two horses had legs in that race..The rest were pretty bad..
Agree, no one looks at that, it\'s all about \"doc\"
Okay, I\'m curious. We say he wins because something is going on, you say he wins for another reason. He wins and you somehow think that proves your point.
Explain reasoning please.
It\'s funny miff. You like to antagonize on this issue.
Every year app 20-30 million worth of stock,usually 100 plus horses across all divisions, distances, all substantially correct, expensive,well bred,work well at training sales.Loses 75% of the time and I can name 10 trainers who would do just as well or better with those horses.
Now,you explain how with all of the above and with cheating on top, he loses at 75%.
30,036 foals registered in 2010.
20 spots in the Derby.
He gets five, maybe six there....umm, please miff.
That would be another non-answer. I mean, if he lost you could as easily say it proved he wasn\'t doing something too, right?
Has a few Derby entrants most years,only one once(Super Saver) must have been lax testing, that year only.
Nice try,I just gave you common sense facts/reasons,you persist with same old nonsense/innuendo, zero facts.You win!
You\'re right. Allday lied. He figured it would help his reputation to tell the Jockey Club he cheated.
And you\'re also right, Kentucky changed labs on a whim, and since then Pletcher has done exactly the same at CD as he did before.
And you\'re right, the guy who has first hand knowledge of the syringe found in NY and what was on it-- someone you almost certainly know-- is lying too. Because... hmmm. Can\'t see why he would.
Zero facts??? Your kidding right?
The guy has had Grade I horses fall over dead in his care. Fact. See Left Bank, Warners, Etc.
The guy has had multiple horses retired or get cancer because of a liver issue when these horses are young, talented athletes. FACT. See Uncle Mo, Devil May Care. What does your liver do again?
The guy won at a 40% clip at Gulfstream in 2011-2012 winter meet. At Churchill 2012, spring and fall he won ZERO races. FACT.
This doesn\'t seem to bother you at all? Why do you love him so much?
When he took a shot at Shug/Phipps/Janney over Orb and the lasix issue you were thrilled, pointing it out twice on the board to make sure people saw it. Why? Why is it that you relish in his success AND his potshots at competitors that actually have a well bred horse that can run his Violence into injury?
Hmmm, you\'re tough.For me, all the conspiracy idiots and Kool aid drinkers.You are saying that TAP is using illegal PEDS.
YES or NO ?
I\'m saying Allday has admitted using EPO while training for Pletcher and he\'s still training for Pletcher. I\'m saying based on what I can see over a very large sampling of data Pletcher is doing something to move horses up, not necessarily EPO.
You were confused about what I was saying before this?
No, I see 99% of Pletchers figs,and don\'t see many move ups.Actually see them they usually run big early, flat line or go bad after a few starts.
He rarely gets horses from others, so don\'t know what move ups you speak of.His young horses that go forward are all move ups? None are just developing? Millions in stock and none with ability?
The whole barn is built around illegal stuff?
P.S if he gets an occasional one from elsewhere,it\'s not a bum,he don\'t take that kind.
You\'re right, he can\'t move up horses that are already moved up. You win.
I\'d Love to see Caixa Electronica\'s sheet or the recent horse he took over from Bob Dunham I believe. There are others he has gotten from other trainers.
Now that you mention it-- he had no negative numbers through March of his 6yo year when Pletcher claimed him. Since then he has run 9 of them, including 3 neg 2 1/2s and a neg 4 at the end of his 7yo campaign.
Now Miff will explain how that in fact is an indication of the opposite of what you think.
Like I have said before, it\'s tougher to tell with guys who have them from the beginning of their career. But once in a while...
Fair,
I\'d prefer the Green Monkeys sheet.
Since you know the answer, what does he do? Must be illegal stuff that Maylin can\'t find as all races are in NY.
Leaving Pletcher out of this, I have mentioned several times here that EPO can\'t be caught with standard testing if it\'s given at 4 and 14 days from a race.
They need OOC testing, which they are not doing, contrary to what you heard. You want to keep playing this?
We might be told there isn\'t enough money to do it all the time. If/when I can find out what/how NY tests for EPO in or OOC(as you suggest) I\'ll post it. Have serious doubt that I am going to inform the head of all testing in NY for years about something he\'s unaware of.
I\'ve thought about him (Green Monkey). And I\'ve thought about Arch Warrior too.
I\'m not saying I have answers. But you cannot get every horse to win every race. Only Patrick Byrne was able to do that for a certain stretch one time. Remind me who his vet was.
I agree he has well bred, expensive stock. But so did Godolphin/Darley. So do the Phipps/Janney. So do others in the game. He is winning these preps like they are just so easy every year. Huge 14 horse fields. He is making a mockery of the game on its most important stage but then absolutely falters at CD?? Its all very strange. Doesn\'t this bother you??.
More Than Ready should have been our first clue. We all were told he was as good as Secretariat during his 2yo season....then what? Then I saw a long list of these horses like Balto Star\'s Ark Derby, Keyed Entry, Gemologist, Shaniko, Dunkirk, Rags to Riches, Uncle Mo,--I\'ve made money on his huge priced triple crown prep races over the years, but that doesn\'t mean I think it is right ....the list, it goes on and on and on....and meanwhile Lukas hasn\'t had a positive medication test since 1999 the year he won the Derby with Charismatic. But he can\'t win jack until last 6 months it seems. Dallas Stewart can\'t hardly win a thing with all the expensive ones he had. Zito pops a decent one now and then but he gets expensive horseflesh.
Then Baffert has horses fall over dead.....the other great trainer of our time. Its all very odd.
Its more than uncanny what Pletcher does. Did you notice El Padrino was retired? Why do you like him so much miff? Just tell me that.
I just hope discussions like this shed light on this. By the way, after Caixa what happened to Repole\'s claiming operation? You think by chance that Pletcher thought it might create a negative perception like the discussion we are having?? hmmmm.....
Correct. You are not. And even less likely he will tell you people are beating testing. Again, ask him if they can pick up EPO administered on that schedule. he might tell you that.
Fair,
You getting into areas way over your head. You would not know Mike Repole if you tripped over him. Idiotic conspiracy theories about a billionaire fooling in the claiming game is really out there.
Do you think the large insures of expensive race horses just pay off at death without the most comprehensive post mortem exam possible?
Mike
Yes, Miff, you are absolutely right. Repole wants NO PART of \"fooling around\" as you say in the claiming game does he (what does \"dabble\" mean again in the article below)......from 2011.....as for over my head and Repole, why you so defensive about him??? You are starting to get personal Mike. And you still won\'t say why you love Pletch SOOOO Much....
http://www.drf.com/news/repole-puts-pletcher-claiming-game
Let me highlight for you...I cut and pasted exactly what was written by Grening
"To take a horse for $40,000 and to win a stake with him first start back, tell me that's not impressive," Repole said. "Not only an impressive claim, it shows what [Pletcher] can do in 30 days with a horse."
You are right. No-one has ever drugged a horse. People who admit they do are lying. Data is useless. All those direct points you avoided answering didn\'t require an answer.
Give it a rest. Seriously. Now would be good.
BTW - EPO won\'t make a horse run faster. It possibly could make them run longer.
I think you need to re-read the information about \"Baffert horses falling over dead\".
Ok sight, I\'ll bite.
What makes horses run faster?
This is beyond absurd. This isn\'t \"all or nothing\". This is you using your figures to accuse trainers of cheating - in the face of nothing but your figures.
How many of the trainer names you gave to CA came up positive and were caught?
I say any man\'s speed figures are as accurate in predicting cheating, as they are in predicting winners.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/77501/baffert-deaths-are-personally-troubling
So its okay for it to be personally troubling to Baffert but not to me????? 7 horses dead including one after a second place finish right?? Just making sure what you want me to re-read.
________________________________________________
Baffert, a member of the Hall of Fame, lost seven horses to sudden death between July 1, 2011, and March 14, 2013. While examination of most of the causes of death were inconclusive, necropsy reports identified pulmonary hemorrhage, signs of bacterial infection, cardiac collapse, and encephalomyelitis among the possible contributing factors.
One of the horses that died was Irrefutable, a 5-year-old son of Unbridled\'s Song who collapsed after finishing second Nov. 26, 2011, in the Vernon O. Underwood Stakes (gr. III) at Betfair Hollywood Park.
\"He was heading back (to the barn) and everything looked OK,\" Baffert said after the race. \"He ran great. After he was unsaddled, he took about 10 steps. We thought he was having a heat stroke. He must have had a heart attack.\"
Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/77501/baffert-deaths-are-personally-troubling#ixzz2R3j3uFEi
There\'s very little that makes horses literally run faster nowadays. We easily catch methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine, caffeine, etc.
Virtually everything being used - milkshaking, EPO - is all about increasing stamina, endurance in distance horses. Getting them to the point (their 3 furlong run) with less energy used.
Jerry, honest question for you - do you think sprinters and distance horses are equally \"doped\"?
I ask, as they depend upon different metabolic pathways for performance excellence.
I was going to point out before you brought it up the distance issue. Sure seems that the longer the race is such as beyond 1 1/8 miles, the less likely the \"usual suspects\" win....the shorter the distance the more likely the \"suspects\" win.
On another note, has anyone noticed that Asmussen and Pletcher don\'t run any 4 1/2 furlong baby races at Keeneland as much. Is it b/c they are tired of competing with the W. Ward who excels with those types?
Bruce Headley
Ray Bell
Carla Gaines
Ron Ellis
Jerry Quinn
Craig Dollase
John Cooper
A.C. Avila
Gary Sherlock
Robert Troeger
Rafael Becerra
Jack Carava
Dallas Keen
Philip Diamato
Jefferey Metz
Samuel Almaraz
Ramon Pulido
Kathy Walsh
Sean McCarthy
Mike Mitchell
Robert Lucas
Their horses are all \"dropping over dead\", too. Are you concerned?
Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/77495/chrb-no-spike-in-sudden-deaths#ixzz2R3kl4d18
Briefly, all horses decelerate at all distances Thoroughbreds run, fast and slow twitch notwithstanding. Even closers. Enabling a horse to run the last 1/4 of a 6f race as fast as his other two would be a very big deal.
Everything else has to wait until tmw.
I\'m not talking fast and slow twitch muscle, I\'m talking energy pathway usage, which needs oxygen to function.
He whose ATP lasts the longest ... wins.
So you listed 21 trainers I think.
They say 30 horses died if I read it right.
9 those dead are Baffert horses? Or 11 as another article said? It all seems like a bunch of garble to try to confuse people not to focus on one trainer.
So to be clear, 1 death each for everyone else? Or is this over several years? Am I understanding correctly? They did a good job of attempting to take the spotlight off of Baffert.
As for if I care sight, please read below.
_____________________________
I know a very good, highly respected trainer in a strong way. One time I went out to the paddock and asked him why his horse was just starting his career late in the summer of his 3yo year. He normally has his horses ready as 2yo or early 3yo and otherwise you don\'t see maidens first time out for him. He said, \"Well, this horse has a vision issue. He can\'t see out of one of his eyes. So, it\'s been a long process but I\'ve got him ready to race and he has been training great. I think he can win today.\" Interestingly, it was around the time that Pollard\'s Vision was racing which was a great story so I was intrigued. I didn\'t bet the race and I watched with extreme interest. The horses came out of the gate in a 6 furlong race. And through the stretch, the horse I described literally just fell over right in the stretch well before the wire.
This trainer, who has over 1000 wins and has been training for over 30 years now (25 plus at the time), literally, ran from the horsemen\'s area, jumped the fence and was with the horse and clearly was absolutely devestated. He has won many, many, many stakes races and he was crying his eyes out over this MdnClm$10k animal.
I talked to him days later. He was still upset saying it was his fault that he pushed that horse into a race. That the horse was so stressed he had a heart attack during the race.
Trainers love their horses and what they and their animals do. And this is a terrible situation California is describing as basically \"normal.\" The story I relate made sense. This many deaths does not. It is troubling.
Maybe you could click on the article I linked, and read.
If you are bothered by that number of horse deaths - which, unfortunately, is the average in the game everywhere, and has been for some years on dirt tracks - I suggest you find something else to do aside from gambling on living creatures performances.
Besides the article that has Bo Derek and Rick Arthur saying that its the international average do you have another link or research that suggests this to be true??
How can some of you be so blind? Modern day supertrainers and their vets are pushing the envelope with every medicinal/chemical edge they can find. They are pushing far into the grey areas of the rules. I don\'t believe they have a \"magic bullet\" undetectable PED, but they definitely are not getting the results they achieve through hard work/horsemanship, etc.
Re: the report on horse deaths (I don\'t care if it focuses on Baffert)....this is what troubles me.
\"But the program has a flaw, and I think it's a major one. There is no requirement that veterinary records of deceased horses be submitted to researchers conducting the post-mortem examinations. Those records are an important component for researchers who are trying to meet the program's objectives.
You would think that owners, trainers and veterinarians would want answers as to why a horse broke down or died suddenly from heart failure, internal bleeding or some other cause. You would think they would do whatever they could to save other horses from suffering a similar fate in the future. And that would include agreeing to a policy that requires veterinary records to be submitted on all horses that died.
If you thought that owners, trainers and veterinarians in California wanted to do that, you would be wrong. Sadly.
For three years now, the CHRB has gone round and round with horsemen and vets on this issue. The CHRB's Medication and Track Safety Committee proposed an amendment back in 2011 that would require six months of veterinary records be submitted on horses that died at California racetracks or licensed training centers.
And they appear no closer today to getting board approval than they were when the proposal – an amendment to CHRB Rule 1846.5, Postmortem Examination – was first made.
"Over strenuous objections from owners, trainers and veterinarians, the board has not moved forward on this proposal," said Dr. Rick Arthur, the CHRB's equine medical director.
CHRB commissioner Bo Derek has pushed this proposal hard, but the resistance to change has been formidable. Many horsemen and veterinarians believe it's nobody's business. And that, of course, is one of racing's biggest problems: they think it's their game, everyone else be damned.
Am I the only one who is PISSED OFF about this? If these deaths are just coincidental, as Miff wants us to believe, what do these owners/trainers/vet\'s have to be afraid of, in respect to recent/prior vet records. I\'d like to know just which persons were on record objecting. I\'d be willing to wager I could guess a few of the outfits that would be on this list and you won\'t find Jack Vanberg or other less than 10% guys on that list.
We need transparency. I want to know when I\'ll Have Another is getting \"shock therapy\", whether I agree with the practice or if it should be allowed doesn\'t matter. I want to know if and when Vyjack is getting his tank topped up with some packed blood (whether It is his own blood harvested at a prior date or not...whether it\'s considered legal or not) followed by a little harmless R&R time in the hyperbaric chamber.
Way too many questionable practices going on with these guys that need to be KNOWN to the world. If Miff and others are OK with these practices, at least the rules can be made clear and we can be provided with the info to handicap/wager responsibly.
Jeff Mullins went on record to say folks who bet on horseraces are idiots and don\'t deserve to know what goes on behind he scenes. I was hoping to outlast the Jeff Mullins\' of the world. Happy that we are rid of JM, but its apparent in today\'s racing community there are many who subscribe to the \"if you can\'t beat em, join em\" excuse.
Me? I\'d rather go back to the hay and oats days (I know there\'s been cheating since the beginning of time...but I prefer the odd case of some fool putting pepper spray on his horses bum or a shady jock hitting horse with a battery, compared to today\'s well funded outfits equipped with supertrainer, chemist/vet/nutritionist/shockwave/hyperbaric chambers.
Rant of the year complete. Go Orb!!!
sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW - EPO won\'t make a horse run faster. It
> possibly could make them run longer.
Hey Sight I understand what you\'re trying to say but it is actually making them run faster in those last few furlongs or else they would cave..
i don\'t claim to have any knowledge about what goes on doping-wise in horse racing.
but it is indisputable that doping occurs regularly and that trainers don\'t scruple as to what they are willing to pump into a horse, as the whole frog juice thing demonstrates.
but one thing that i feel pretty confident in asserting is that premising clean racing on the fact that a given trainer has say 100 horse of whom 75 are mediocre, inconsistent also rans is naive, because it assumes that all 100 horses are on the same \"program.\"
doping success often depends on two things--the doctor and the particular doping program. the best (i.e. most successful) doping doctors don\'t come cheap, nor do many of the most successful meds and procedures. extrapolating from what humans dosages for given substances cost to dosages that would work on 1200 lb animals--i can only assume that the costs for keeping top elite horses on level doping programs are only available to the wealthiest owners (esp. when you factor in the normal costs of just owning an elite race horse).
the other factor involved with which horses on the program and which aren\'t is the trust that the trainer and owner have in each other--all owners may want to win, but not only can\'t all afford the best programs, not all will be comfortable with more exotic doping programs--make no mistake, the owners foot the bill and they know what is going on with their horses. if the trainer isn\'t sure that a given owner will be 100% on board with the less than scrupulous \"training plus\" methods, it is doubtful he will put that owner\'s horse on a program--at least not until the owner gets fed up with being an also ran, and starts the conversation about what can be done to \"tighten the screws\" and \"squeeze a little more from the lemon.\"
what kills me is the these phrases are exactly the same ones that phil ligett and paul sherwin and everyone in cycling used for years to describe cyclists moving up performance-wise to the next level. what also kills me is hearing all the same excuses from the fans about why it\'s not happening at the elite level, or with a given elite horse, or a given elite trainer--it\'s only the bush league no-hopers...i\'m doubt it will ever blow up like cycling did though; there\'s a lot more powerful people involved in thoroughbred doping, and a lot more money at stake...people shelling out $200,000 for a horse, not to mention all the costs of just straight up training, feeding, housing a race horse etc...demand a return on their investment and do not believe the rules apply to them...rules are for the little people...
kekomi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i don\'t claim to have any knowledge about what
> goes on doping-wise in horse racing.
>
> but it is indisputable that doping occurs
> regularly and that trainers don\'t scruple as to
> what they are willing to pump into a horse, as the
> whole frog juice thing demonstrates.
>
> but one thing that i feel pretty confident in
> asserting is that premising clean racing on the
> fact that a given trainer has say 100 horse of
> whom 75 are mediocre, inconsistent also rans is
> naive, because it assumes that all 100 horses are
> on the same \"program.\"
>
> doping success often depends on two things--the
> doctor and the particular doping program. the best
> (i.e. most successful) doping doctors don\'t come
> cheap, nor do many of the most successful meds and
> procedures. extrapolating from what humans dosages
> for given substances cost to dosages that would
> work on 1200 lb animals--i can only assume that
> the costs for keeping top elite horses on level
> doping programs are only available to the
> wealthiest owners (esp. when you factor in the
> normal costs of just owning an elite race horse).
>
>
> the other factor involved with which horses on the
> program and which aren\'t is the trust that the
> trainer and owner have in each other--all owners
> may want to win, but not only can\'t all afford the
> best programs, not all will be comfortable with
> more exotic doping programs--make no mistake, the
> owners foot the bill and they know what is going
> on with their horses. if the trainer isn\'t sure
> that a given owner will be 100% on board with the
> less than scrupulous \"training plus\" methods, it
> is doubtful he will put that owner\'s horse on a
> program--at least not until the owner gets fed up
> with being an also ran, and starts the
> conversation about what can be done to \"tighten
> the screws\" and \"squeeze a little more from the
> lemon.\"
>
> what kills me is the these phrases are exactly the
> same ones that phil ligett and paul sherwin and
> everyone in cycling used for years to describe
> cyclists moving up performance-wise to the next
> level. what also kills me is hearing all the same
> excuses from the fans about why it\'s not happening
> at the elite level, or with a given elite horse,
> or a given elite trainer--it\'s only the bush
> league no-hopers...i\'m doubt it will ever blow up
> like cycling did though; there\'s a lot more
> powerful people involved in thoroughbred doping,
> and a lot more money at stake...people shelling
> out $200,000 for a horse, not to mention all the
> costs of just straight up training, feeding,
> housing a race horse etc...demand a return on
> their investment and do not believe the rules
> apply to them...rules are for the little people...
UNBELIEVABLE! The vast majority on this board don\'t have a clue. U included. This witch hunt B S is getting old
The amount of horse deaths? Sure. Go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ and search on thoroughbred race horse deaths
Sigh ... one reason why \"the trainer gave the horse some magical secret dope we can\'t find that killed it\" is rarely #1 on a pathologists cause of death list - but is on the \"I don\'t know anything about medicine, horses, or doping, but ... \" group list
Cardiopathology of sudden cardiac death in the race horse.
Kiryu K, Nakamura T, Kaneko M, Oikawa M, Yoshihara T.
Source
Department of Veterinary Pathology, Tokyo University of Agriculture and Technology, Japan.
Abstract
Twenty thoroughbred race horses were selected for postmortem cardiopathological study of sudden cardiac death; ten of the twenty horses died suddenly. In order to define accurately the morphological changes observed in these ten hearts, ten other thoroughbred race horses considered to have normal hearts were selected as a control group and studied by postmortem coronary angiography. Of the ten horses that died suddenly, eight were witnessed to have died either during or shortly after training or racing. The death was instantaneous except in one horse, which showed ventricular tachycardia and died 4.5 h after a race. The other two died unexpectedly in the stable at night. Pathologically, the horses that died suddenly generally showed multifocal myocardial lesions that were ischemic and fibrotic. These lesions were found in the atrial tissue close to the sinoatrial (SA) node and in the atrioventricular (AV) junction, including the upper portion of the interventricular septum. Such myocardial lesions were often associated with vascular changes including arterio- and/or arteriolosclerosis. Angiographically, the SA node appeared to be perfused by atrial branches of the left and right coronary arteries. One branch originating from the left coronary artery gave off a few branches into the AV junction. These pathological findings, mainly consisting of both atrial lesions and lesions in the AV junction, were similar to those observed in horses with either atrial fibrillation, SA block, or paroxysmal ventricular tachycardia. A finding of particular interest was the angiographic demonstration that the blood supply to the AV junction partly came from the SA node artery.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
---------------
Risk factors for race-associated sudden death in Thoroughbred racehorses in the UK (2000-2007).
Lyle CH, Blissitt KJ, Kennedy RN, Mc Gorum BC, Newton JR, Parkin TD, Stirk A, Boden LA.
Source
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies and Roslin Institute, University of Edinburgh, Easter Bush Veterinary Centre, Roslin, Midlothian, UK. Catriona.Lyle@up.ac.za
Abstract
REASONS FOR PERFORMING STUDY:
Sudden death adversely affects racehorse welfare, jockey safety and the public perception of horseracing.
POTENTIAL RELEVANCE:
The identification of risk factors allows speculation on the underlying mechanisms of sudden death in racing. This may stimulate hypothesis-led investigations into the pathogenesis of exercise-related arrhythmias, exercise-induced pulmonary haemorrhage and blood vessel rupture.
-------------------------
Seems you are completely ignoring the Baffert horses that \"fell over dead\" for perfectly explainable medical reasons noted on pathology at autopsy - EIPH, infection, etc - as noted in the article I posted that you obviously failed to read.
You surely are not blaming Baffert for doping when that wasn\'t found at autopsy, and another reason for sudden death was?
Oh, wait. Yes. You are. And you\'re not the only one doing it.
Do some trainers dope horses? Yes, they do. Are they usually caught? Yes, they are. Do some dope and escape capture? Yes, they do. Is it a majority? No, it\'s a very few. Are the big trainers all doping with magical secret undetectable move up juice whose chemical composition is unknown to mankind and science? Only in conspiracy land.
You act like I\'m a conspiracy minded idiot for having questions. Also, that silly Rat Poison stuff is just nonsense too right? One horse in Mitchell\'s care and one in Baffert\'s care right? Silly anticoagulant stuff, no big deal.
How about this? Are Dick Mandella and Jim Cassidy conspiracy minded idiots too? Go ahead and tell me how they haven\'t read your bloodhorse article that says other trainers have had deaths too. Go ahead and tell me they don\'t understand either.....
____________________________________________________
Jim Cassidy, president of the California Thoroughbred Trainers, said in over 30 years as a trainer he has only lost one horse to sudden death, and that was after the horse had surgery.
"It makes us all look like a bunch of idiots around here," Cassidy said of the recent reports. "When I hear from the (CHRB's Medication and Track Safety) meeting yesterday that they had everything under control, how can they possibly have everything under control if you have seven or eight horses die like that in one barn."
Richard Mandella, a fellow Hall of Fame trainer like Baffert, said he was just learning the news on Baffert's horses.
"Heart attacks are not common place," Mandella said. "It's a rare thing, and I'm sure no one is trying to give these horses heart attacks. I had a horse have one about 15 years ago, and one more before that, maybe."
Mandella was concerned about traces of rat poison being found in two of the deceased horses, including one of them, reportedly, from Baffert's barn. Dr. Uzal said there were no findings to indicate the rat poison caused the deaths.
Sight-- You have absolutely no idea whether dopers are usually caught or not. You know that there are tests that can catch some drugs and assume, incorrectly, that people who are supposed to be testing a) are doing so, b) for enough horses, c) the right way, d) announcing positives when they catch someone, and e) can test for all the drugs being used.
You would have said the same thing in the 90\'s and early 2000\'s when Allday was doing his crap for all the top guys he later admitted cheating for. You would have said (and did here, I believe) that Kentucky was doing its job during a time it turned out they were not. You might have said it about testing in Pennsykvania in 2009-- but it turned out they weren\'t doing TCO2 tests until 2010, which we know because they announced then they were starting. What was a clean test result there in 2009 worth?
As of spring 2008 Maryland was testing TWO (2) horses per entire race card, and taking the blood for the TCO2 tests post-race. You know enough to know what coming in under the limit in those cicumstances means-- zip. And on that subject Kentucky outlawed alkalyzing agents around 1999 after a friend of mine, the late Charlie Harris, wrote a piece in Bloodhorse about them. They announced 6 years later they were going to START testing for them. What was having a clean test worth in Kentucky in 2003? Would you have assumed solid testing was going on then too? And after they started testing, the guy who took the samples quit on opening day of the fall Churchill meet in 2006, and was not replaced. No TCO2 testing at a meet where they hosted the BC. Would you have said the same thing back then? If not, why not?
I also have personal knowledge of a TCO2 positive (over 40, by the way) that was not announced or prosecuted in Kentucky in 2007-- I know because I made a Freedom Of Information Act request for the test results, and got a redacted version of them after a fight.
So you have no basis for that statement.
There are those who DO have an informed opinion on this question. Among them are serious handicappers using serious data and NOT JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS, which some horseplayers do in one direction, and you in another. If you looked at and understood the data I posted about Moya as an example you would understand this.
I have to agree with sighthound. The cheating is not being done with undetectable drugs. What the top trainers have is good stock and top vets that are making a lot of money pushing the envelope as far as they can in the treatment of the horses.
I do not think there is any breed of race horses that race that do not have something wrong with them. like arthritis,tendinitis,Strains,sprain, acute joint injury and maybe even a cold. The good trainers and top vets are very good at getting these race horses to run to the best of there ability. Do I condone all of the therapeutic practices that are being used on some horses to get them to race no.
I know of a vet that worked at the race tracks and had to give it up because they could not keep treating the horses the way the trainers want them to anymore. They push the envelope to the point of it being cruelty to the animals. I am not accusing any particular trainer of this but you have owners that spend large sums of money and the trainers have get results. I am not going to say what some of the things that are being done to some of the horses are but I am sure sighthound knows of a few things that are being done that have nothing to do with being illegal.
Here is a link to very long report from April 2011 on the chemical horse Drugs in Horse Racing.
http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-1.php
I have two things I would like done in all breeds of racing.
1.All horses should be weighed from race to race and be published.
2.A published vet list on each horse racing. With the vets name and what was done to the horse between starts. Like joint injections and therapeutic drugs that were administered.
Don\'t overlook what passes for \'testing\' in Florida. It\'s so ridiculous that a certain NY based trainer cleaned up in the past couple of years with horses that couldn\'t run there, in so much pain, but came to Calder and ran new tops first out. Killed the local horses.
Yeah, Flodida\'s another one. I don\'t have time to look it up but what came out this winter in the Jamie Ness deal about their (lack of) regulation of alkalyzing agents was mind boggling.
Ok, so I got the bums rush from Maylin\'s office but was sent info on lectures by Dr.Maylin, whom they claim is world renounded on the subject of EPO and many areas of drug testing for over 40 years.My contact info was left, so if/when I get a call back,will ask about administering EPO(or anything in the interval JB said its being done)It seems that question is addressed in here.More than one vet I know for a long time said anything outside of an 8 hour window has substantially less potency, if any at all, as it relates to enhancing performance.
From the session,said to be more than 5years ago:
Question:
Can you tell us briefly in laymans terms about your test for EPO?
Dr. Maylin:
EPO has been with us since 1985. That is when I first heard about it. It is a very difficult drug to do, as you know, it�s a normal hormone produced by the kidney for hypoxia or lack of oxygen. For whatever reason, the kidney gets a signal to send out a hormone to the bone marrow that will make red blood cells. This was really going to be the savior for things like sickle cell anemia and kidney disease in human medicine. Of course, it looked so good it became an equine drug. Even though there is absolutely no reason to think that it is going to do a racehorse any good, because horses dump their spleen and have all the red blood cells they need. If you inject EPO, which is a recombinant human protein, into a horse, it thinks it is a foreign protein or a virus and it develops an antibody. The antibody reacts against the foreign invader, recombinant human EPO, and it also takes out the horses own EPO. So an antibody is developed.
You can get very severe anemia as a result of it and horses can�t race, don�t race well, or die. We knew there was an antibody being produced and it was a very simple solution of doing the conventional antigen/antibody test, just like the coggins test. The coggins test picks up a virus, while ours picks up the so-called drug EPO. We reasoned that if a horse has an EPO antibody, it�s a sick horse. It may not look sick on its face, but it is taking out its own red blood cells. We, with the help of the Racing and Wagering Board in New York, decided that we would put these horses with a high antibody count on the vet�s list and they would not be allowed to race until such time that they were back to soundness again.
We had, at one track, an incidence of three percent reactivity on this test, and when the test was announced it disappeared. Those horses did not race. We virtually have no EPO responders now in New York. We have a couple of horses, I�d say of fifteen thousand tests since the test went into effect, we have had three horses, one was the same horse twice. So it has been a very effective, very inexpensive test and I recognize that it not a gold standard of identification. It�s an antibody/antigen test, but I reason that if it is good enough for a coggins test, the same technology is good enough for an EPO test.
The antibody can last as much as three or four months, so it is quite conceivable that when a horse tests positive there have been two or three trainers involved before the guy who actually did it. So this way the current trainer is not hung out to dry.
Mike-- there is zero chance that Maylin will say in a public forum or to you that there is something they can\'t catch.
When I was dealing with the JC committee I was pushing for publishing of test results, to deal with some of the issues I have mentioned here (testers not doing their jobs). I got into a heated exchange with Scott Waterman (now gone), whose position was not that drugging wasn\'t going on (every single person in the room agreed it was, on a large scale), but that publishing results would indicate the holes in the testing, and \"create a roadmap\" (Waterman and others have used this term) for cheaters. The Maylin situation is the same-- they\'re not going to tell you something can get past them.
When I was told about the 4 and 14 day EPO protocols I sent an email to Rick Arthur askling him about it. From his email response of 3/19/13:
\"This is why we have to have out of competition testing. This is a difficult issue. There are dosing regimens for EPO and similar ESA\'s that can make testing very difficult in human and equine testing. Our targeting strategies for OOC testing for EPO recognize the dosing regimen you describe\". So California is on it, at least for that.
After you posted that NYRA was doing OOC testing I inquired about it from someone at the very top of the industry who is working on the drug issue. After he checked it out he sent me an email saying that what they were doing was \"totally insufficient\". And unless they actually institute OOC testing here they won\'t be able to stop it.
JB,
Dont know if you have followed Dr.Maylin but he is diabolically opposed to doping racehorses and has dedicated his working life to that end. His work with EPO, Cobra Venom and other real bad shit is lauded in the testing community.
He is opposed to lasix,over use of in between permitted stuff, supports detention barns,OOC,informants, camera security and whatever else is being done to rid NY Racing of any doping problem and the negative perception.Thats his job.
In my opinion, I do not think he would be involved in any type of covering up of what he is finding.In no uncertain terms he has stated that it is virtually impossible to confirm that testing alone ensures integrity.This guy is curt and to the point, he\'s not a politically appointed stooge and regularly criticizes all factions of racing for not doing enough to rid the game of illegal stuff.
What he will or wont tell me or the public, I cant answer, but if you\'ve followed him, as I have, you in particular would count him to be of your persuasion, not mine.
Mike
Whoa. I\'m not suggesting Maylin is covering up anything, neither was Waterman, whose whole job was to stop drug cheating. They withhold info in an effort to STOP more cheating. But that approach assumes that everyone involved is as serious about it and competent as they are, and it\'s not true.
I will bet anything that if the opportunity comes to do OOC testing Maylin jumps at it.
\"I will bet anything that if the opportunity comes to do OOC testing Maylin jumps at it\"
Positively correct JB,recommended and declined, money money money!He admitted OOC will be very expensive,logistically tough.Advanced a suggestion that they stop throwing money down a dark hole with inflated winter purses, esp for NY Bred maiden claiming slow rats,redirect that money for OOC testing.Trainers/owners scream, dont want to take a purse haircut,upstate backyard breeders run to their State Senators....nothing happens.
Shameful, reportedly a $1.5 million dollar expense for jockey welfare/safety fund from slot money was squashed by horsemen because not in the original agreement.
Yeah, exactly. That\'s why we need drug tests published in detail,and either CORRECT Federal oversight (not the current bill), or WADA to come in and take it over. Tracks won\'t do what they should and spend the money unless someone makes them.
Actually, Jerry, I have more insight into whether \"dopers are caught or not\" than you do.
TGJB saying Dr. Maylin could be covering stuff up is beyond absurd. Simply insultingly ridiculous.
That would be a great idea (publish treatments) but again, with our emphasis on claiming races supporting the industry, I can\'t see that ever happening. We\'d have to change the clamining game markedly and remove a lot of it from racing.
As yes, I know people (vets) that do what trainers wish, rather than what is in the best interests of the horse. Yes, some push the therapeutic window (repeated joint injections at the trainer request too close together, etc).
That\'s the biggest mistreatment of horses on the backstretch, as you say. Pick your clients carefully, and say no to some.
I\'m going to give you time to read carefully and apologize for that.
As for the other one about knowing more about it than I do, you either can back that up with answers to the points I raised or not. If you can, do so. Right now.
No, you go right ahead assuming somebody gave a horse rat poison as an anticoagulant.
It\'s not the top 5 reasons a horse would have broudificoum at trace amounts present in it\'s system at necropsy, but let\'s not let reality interfer with a good theory.
You know, TGJB, I have a lot of respect for what you do professionally.
You don\'t return the favor, do you?
Because yeah - I say a licensed veterinarian on the backstretch clearly knows a lot more about what happens there, regarding horses, drugs, medicine - than someone who is not a vet, doesn\'t know medicine, doesn\'t prescribe, doesn\'t treat horses, and does not work on the backstretch.
There are people who are good and not so good at all professions, I have no idea which you are, but this has absolutely nothing to do with that. I\'m going to give you about an hour before you get barred from here. You can read the Maylin stuff and withdraw your characterization of me (or not), and you can back up your assertion about knowing more about it than me in light of the specific points I made (or not). At that point you will be blocked, or not.
Okay, I withdraw my characterization of what you said about Maylin. It was wrong.
But I stand by everything else I have said.
I have been a member of this board for some years, and have always posted in an professional, educational and factually accurate manner.
And you sure as hell know it.
So as far as your insulting attempt to characterize me as a veterinarian of questionable ability, and threatening to block me - be my guest.
I am not a vet,am never on the backstretch, and have never owned a horse.Having said that ,is it wrong to believe that something is not right when one guy has 7 horses die out of 16 and some kind of rat poison is found in their system that is not used at that track.With everything going on with the amazing \"forward moves\"that these trainers are getting something is definitely not right,Baffert\'s first time starters run crazy numbers first time out, just about every time.On this one I side with TJB.
I did not say you were a vet of questionable or any other kind of ability, I said I don\'t know (you never did any work for me or anyone else I know), and I said it was irrelevant. You know why I said that? BECAUSE I DON\'T KNOW. You should try that some time.
If you have answers to the points I made in response to you-- as opposed to a simple assertion implying you have some professional knowledge that proves me wrong-- SAY WHAT THEY ARE. You have a bunch of specific points to deal with-- lack of testing (Pennsylvania), incorrect methodology (Maryland), shoddy lab work AND lack of testing AND a buried positive (Kentucky). If you can show either I am wrong about those things or that they are irrelevant-- that despite those things being true you have a basis to say most druggers are still being caught-- do so now.
You posted in a completely proper manner until very recently, until you started taking shots using characterizations that were offensive and making assertions that were false as if you had some professional knowledge indicating they were true. They are not. You are not more up on this than I am, not even close. I\'m dealing with the top people in (and out of) the industry who are trying to deal with the drug issue-- Jim Gagliano of the Jockey Club, Kevin Cummins of Senator Udall\'s office who is in charge of the proposed Federal legislation, Rick Arthur, the KTOB, etc. You are not. You are an anonymous poster incorrectly characterizing me and my statements.
Your straw men are ridiculous - I never said any of that was wrong. You bring up random factoids as a jumping-off point to accuse trainers of cheating based only upon your speed figures - with your random unassociated factoids supposedly evidence to support your accusation?
Sorry - there is no logic there. There is no critical reasoning there. There is no smoking gun there.
There\'s cheating, but believe me, but speed figures are not any type of reliable evidence of same.
You don\'t like that opinion being put forth, block me.
Speaking of straw men.
You made the statement that most cheaters were being caught. I pointed out you had no basis for that statement, and why. You have had several chances to show I was wrong and still haven\'t come up with anything to back up what you said, let alone in light of the things I brought up showing NOBODY is in a position to say that. I\'m leaving the office, if you haven\'t by the time I get in tomorrow or retracted your statements about that and me you\'re gone.
By the way-- it\'s because what you say is not true that there\'s all the activity by all those other people in the industry to change things.
What cheaters are NOT being caught? What undetectable substance are they using that escapes detection today?
Who, right now at Keeneland, is cheating and not being caught?
What percentage of trainers do you think are cheating at Kee?
The basis for MY statement that most cheaters are being caught is the lack of positives that come back, and the ones that do. Public, quantifiable, documented.
You dismiss Kee testing today, because they changed labs in a previous year?
And what the hell am I saying that \"isn\'t true\"? I say there are cheaters, I say they are using stuff that isn\'t detectable - I just don\'t think it\'s as rampant as some create in their minds. We don\'t need an axe - we need surgical precision. And a hell of a lot more money. As I have previously said, I think every horse in competition should be tested.
I can think of multiple valid reasons a horse moves up when they go to a certain trainer, having zero to do with doping a horse. I\'ve seen trainers I know are clean be accused of cheating (not necessarily by you, but on this board) ... based upon subjective speed figures? Because some guy who doesn\'t know the first thing about horses, or training, thinks it must be doping because they can\'t imagine being able to explain why the horse ran so much better than they thought it would?
Heavy dose of reality and science needed in this sport.
That\'s disengenuous, you\'re smarter than that. What I said is you had no basis for the statement. And I showed that the fact there are not positives has proven to be completely irrelevant. And I made the point completely clear.
Until drug tests are published, in detail, showing how many horses are being tested, for what, by what method, who they are, and what the actual test results are, there\'s no basis for even an opinion on this subject. By anyone, other than those using the kind of methods I use. The ones Rick Arthur and others respect enough to ask me whether someone in their jurisdiction is doing something.
Ok, I am in no way an expert, and correct me if I am wrong, but didnt rudy rod start moving up horses big time a few years ago? Now 3 violations suddenly. It seems to me all these huge move up guys MAY eventually test positive, but they get away with it for way too long. So to say that most cheaters are getting caught is comical. And even if they do, they get to steal purses for years first.
Now that Belmont will be opening I suspect that Rudy and Jacobsen will tone it down a little bit.As a year round NY bettor I can say that those two have ruined NY horseracing.
I know from previous years that Pletcher will have trouble duplicating Gulfstream numbers at Belmont.The cheating in the game is out of control.The sport is in jeopardy as die hard players are losing confidence.
Steve Asmussen can not win anymore. Another positive for him and he will be in the same boat with Dutrow.Hard to believe that the trainers that lose horses via the claim box with severe problems don\'t go the stewards and file complaints and demand explanations how the problems were corrected overnight. The sheets will at the least provide a visual aid for the incompetents that call themselves stewards.
Are you saying to me that Ness,Zladie ,Maker,Navarro,and a bunch of others are just moving horses up with good training, I refuse to beleive that.
vp612 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you saying to me that Ness,Zladie
> ,Maker,Navarro,and a bunch of others are just
> moving horses up with good training, I refuse to
> beleive that.
Speaking of Maker, you can start a whole new thread with what he has been doing at Keeneland..Been around in this game too long for that premium hay and oats theory..
Sight,
no,no, no....if good ol bobby baffert was truly \"troubled\" (which you took a shot at me for using that word but that\'s the words he used that was quoted in a bloodhorse/espn/etc articles mentioning his PR firm\'s release), then he would release the medication/vet records for the horses that died.....this has nohing to do with claiming races/issues....these horses are dead.
But he won\'t, see below Bob\'s words that don\'t match up with the inaction of not providing Uzal the info he needs to truly figure it out....hmmmmm.
___________________
\"The safety of my horses has been and always will be the most important thing to me,\" Baffert said. \"The mysterious deaths are personally troubling and of great sadness to me, my family and the owners of the horses. My heart goes out to the horses\' owners.\"
\"I am working with everyone, including the California Horse Racing Board, my veterinarians and staff at the tracks, to find causes for the unexplained deaths,\" the trainer said. \"California Horse Racing Board\'s Bo Derek and the state\'s equine medical director, Dr. Rick Arthur, have made it clear that nothing I have done has caused any horse I have trained to suffer equine sudden death syndrome. My professional focus will continue to be to provide the best care for my horses, with constant concern for their well-being.\"
\"I hope that research by CHRB and its pathologists will discover information helpful to understanding the reasons that I, and many of my colleagues, have had horses suffer this unfortunate fate,\" Baffert said.
But Dr. Uzal doesn\'t make it sound like the Hall of Fame trainer is working with everyone does he???
"We have not been able to find the cause," Dr. Francisco Uzal of the California Animal Health and Food Safety Laboratory System said at a meeting of the board's medication committee. "We have done extensive toxicological studies. We have done, of course, all sort of other things — pathology and histology. We don't know what's going on."
Uzal acknowledged that researchers had been stymied in their search for answers to the sudden deaths because of the lack of information from trainers and their veterinarians.
"The information of medication that we get is still sketchy," Uzal said at the medication meeting. "But if we can have a summary of medication, that would help a lot."
Fair,
There is an unconfirmed report that Baffert did turn over the medical records of the dead horses over the objection of an owner/trainers group re setting a precedent of disclosure of their private property(medical records)
It was said that the odds of one trainer having that many deaths in a 2 year period is like 150,000-1. Rumor talk of Baffert surrendering his license until this is figured out being \"lawyered up\"
No one believes there is a remote possibility of the Baffert horse deaths being a coincidence,yet the investigating team finding no common thread.Super jugs and like stuff being looked at as culprits in altering electronic working of heart.
Bo Derek and Rick Arthur said to \"alibing\" for Baffert,several very prominent trainers/owners pissed off over soft treatment of Baffert suggesting that anyone else would be hung out to dry.
Situation called powder keg by Cali horseman pal.
Mike
The good Doctor (who is at CD...) is on Byk show right now, talking testing and TAP\'s horses. Starts about 1/2 way through second hour.
Interesting. If he turned over the records, why would he keep that quiet?
Very strange,Baffy should have held a press conference to announce he turned over vet records of dead horses.Has a PR firm and legal counsel instead?
Ray P told me he reached out to Dr.Arthur but did not get a direct answer to that direct question....smells!
Long time NY trainer said 7 dropping dead in 2 years....impossible, but it happened.
The industry is afraid to go after a high profile trainer like Pletcher. Can you imagine the black eye horse racing would get if Pletcher is ever charged with a major violation and is supended. When Asmussen was given his last suspension and warned that his next would result in a lifetime ban(Dutrow), he suddenly forgot how to train and can\'t even get a 2 or 3yo to run competively. Look at the expensive horseflesh that hasn\'t lifted their feet in California over the last two years. The next guy they need to look at is Maker.He has recently made a mockery of the game.
California is probably the cleanest venue in the last year. Mullens and O\'Neil are back to being 12% trainers as is Sadler and Gaines. Baffert will slowly slide back to a reasonable percentage also after this latest fiasco.
I just dont understand why the trainers and owners who are playing by the rules, don\'t go public with a horses physical issues when they lose a horse via the claim box and within two weeks the animal is miraculously cured of all prior ailments.
Just think about the Lance Armstrong issue of PEDs. They knew he was doing it. They had informants who provided information. They could not prove it and lab testing failed. He denied, denied, denied and had the audacity to sue those who were accusitory and was awarded money in the proceeding. HISTORY repeats itself! Bettors who play every day are way more informed than any group of stewards or upper management at racetracks that have been placed there through political patronage with no credentials
Mak, agree with your points and want to add that bettors care more. Much more. Their betting life depends on these races being clean.
Miff, its troubling that Baffert has had all these horse deaths as well as horses who almost died from \'mysterious\' causes but to me, what\'s more troubling is that nobody seems to be doing anything about it and nobody seems to care.
A person either believes that Baffert\'s horses died of natural causes and its just a billion to one shot (or, 150,000-1) that this happened OR its something deeper and more sinister.
If Baffert knows for sure that nothing ever entered these horses systems who died, it makes absolutely no sense why he wouldnt try to clear his name by releasing information about their treatments.
Or, you can take the other approach, which is the one Baffert seems to be taking and that is release one statement from a PR firm professing your sadness for the dead horses and mostly, stay out of the spotlight until this all blows over.