actually since \'90, when i started following this stuff.
1. Bailey on Sea Hero, Derby: was able to get the horse into his best stride, while at the same time saving all the ground. incredible.
2. Day on Awsome Again, BC: Stevens, Bailey, Dettori, McCarron, all the greats, and they all had great horses. Day lets them battle each other into the ground, and picks em off like they were running backwards.
3. Eddy D on AP Indy, every ride: the horse did not have a lot of natural speed, but Eddy D was smart enough to know that he had unlimited stamina, and rode him hard throughout most of his races. a sit still rider would never have won a race with that horse.
4. Bailey on Arcan..whatever, BC: again, JD was able to get the horse into full stride early enough, while saving ground, easier said than done.
5. (tie) Stevens on VG and JR on HH (already discussed).
If you ever get a chance, check out Cordero\'s ride on Cannonade in the Derby-- came from last in a 22 or 24 horse field (no limit then) without ever leaving the rail. Also, the aforementioned Bailey ride on You in the Test, bouncing off the rail and winning by a nose, has to make the list.
TGJB---
If I may offer---Edgar Prado\'s ride on SARAVA in the 2002 Belmont. Not the fastest horse by any means, Prado saves ground on the inside after breaking from post #12 and accelerates just at the right time to get the jump on MEDAGLIA D\'ORO.
I do not think that Prado ever received the recognition that he deserved for this one. The main story was the McPeek losing HARLAN\'s HOLIDAY angle.
Joe B.
Bailey on Grindstone in that Derby was incredible. I think he passed 12 horses and not ONE by going outside.
Stevens on Thunder Gulch in the Derby was great too, the way he just drafted behind horses into the first turn to save ground from post 16(?). HP
Hey HP, you wrote
\"Bailey on Grindstone in that Derby was incredible\".
You know what he said after the race. He followed Pat Day (Prince of Thieves)every step of the way until Day ran out of horse.
Shoemaker on Ferdinand in the Derby was a classic for several reasons.
Also for my money and my MOUTH/A$$/NECK whatever, Stevens in the 97 Derby will stick with me forever.
The winner--Silver Charm!!
Silver,
don\'t want to diminish the greatness of that ride by stevens, BUT: who was the fastest horse in that race? and, who was riding that horse? and once again, i had a huge bet on that fastest horse that did not win (hint: see posts about VG).
What about Santos on Volponi in the 2002 BC Classic? Of course, I\'m biased by cashing the ticket.
considering the fact that he was soon dumped for the two best riders in the game, neither of whom could get a win out of volponi, he probably should have made the top five. i\'ll put jose on the honorable mention list.
Jim P I agree with you about Santos on Volponi. Sometimes as handicappers we sit down decide if the jock just rides the horse like this, this horse has a shot and that is exactly what Santos did on Volponi.
Michael D I heard Silver Charm and Captain Bodgit are still circling the oval at Churchill Downs as you and I debate this issue.
Guess what, Captain Bodgit STILL HASN\'T GONE BY Silver Charm.
hahahha..... i won\'t argue too hard against SC, he was a brilliant horse (one of the gamest i have seen).
Shoemaker on Ferdinand in the Derby.
No doubt to me the greatest was Shoe on Ferdinand in the derby. His age was a factor but the ride was courageous sending him through that hole on the rail. Of course, my memory is fresh on it because he was 17-1 too.
Also, McCarron on Tiznow the 2nd time at CD was great.
michael
yea, mccarron was brilliant both times on tiz. he knew exactly where to be both times, which meant running a bit wide (strangling the horse to save ground would have resulted in sure losses), and knew exactly when to push the button. his margin of error in those races was zero.
I never believed Silver Charm was any better than Captain Bodgit. If you watch a replay of that Derby you\'ll find that Solis got overly excited and allowed the Captain to drift in behind Silver Charm while closing in the stretch. That drift and the fractions of a second it took to straighten it out was all the difference in the race. The Captain\'s knobbly joints came unglued in the Preakness. Silver Charm was a useful horse and he was game, but he certainly wasn\'t a great one.
CtC
i remember you said you had CB over pulpit in the fla derby. i had him as well in that race, and bet the horse again in the derby. then i bet just as much on TG in the preakness, only to have him nearly fall over at the beginning. i got revenge, though, when TG won the belmont and haskel, but by that time there was very little money to be made.
Along with those mentioned, especially Shoe in \'86, Valenzuela in the \'89 Preakness.
by the way,is jerry p going to LV?
Best rides are so hard to judge. The way I figure it if my jockey has to give the horse an outstanding ride in order to win, I\'ve screwed up the bet because the horse should win relatively easily.
I really thought the only thing Bailey did on Sea Hero was find a seam to go a couple paths inside of Best Pal. But Sea Hero sure looked to want to run the distance to me. Didn\'t he win the Travers too?
As far as A.p.Indy goes I thought the further he went the better he was and it had little to do with the jockey. He won the Belmont and Breeders Cup. I seem to want to believe it was a light year in the Breeders Cup. Didn\'t A.p. lose the Jockey Club Gold Cup that year? It probably was already just 10 marks, my memory is getting bad.
One of the larger bets I ever made was a first time starting two year old that was a sure thing. (I know what you knowledgable are thinking...\"how the heck can a first time starter be a sure thing?\"..lol.) It was an early year five furlong sprint at Calder which are typically won by precocious horses that immediately bound to or very near the lead. My jockey was a leader at the track, but the horse still went off at more than acceptable odds. The jock however stiffed the colt right out of the gate. He wasn\'t ready for the start and not being so caused him to bump and then lose ground to last in the field. Came to find later he was repositioning his foot in the stirrup for some unknown reason when the gate opened. I know I\'m beat and am bemoaning the cash lost on a two year old firster, so I go to the restroom not wanting to heighten my agony by watching. The track announcer is callin the race on the bathroom speaker and my horse is mentioned once or twice placed near the back of the pack. As the race is in its final call the goofy track announcer says my horse, like a comet, has come out of nowhere to photo at the wire. Not wanting to jinx my good fortune induced by not watching the race I decide I had better not watch the photo finish replay. Finally the race is official and the announcement is made that my horse has somehow become the winner.
It was a race where my horse really couldn\'t lose and one which out of the gate he really couldn\'t win and then somehow, (Probably out of fear of bodily harm), the jock was able to win when he shoulda but couldn\'ta all at the same time.
Was it a good ride? Not from my perspective. The jock may believe otherwise.
lol
CtC
Michael,
You\'re right about Touch Gold\'s Preakness...he should have won it. Still you can\'t take away from Silver Charm. He danced every dance and probably helped break down a couple horses by making them run real hard. He was a good one but he wasn\'t head or shoulders above the others in this crop, I think its fair to say that he did race more soundly than they did though.
CtC
SC fought like the old buckpasser, my father once said. take a look back, it\'s amazing how many recent derby winners decend from the buckpasser line. i wish i was around when that one ran.
The guy that rode the Japan Cup winner on Sunday looked remarkably well balanced considering he was simultaneously spraying egg over the faces of the 17 other jockeys.
Ask me again next week and I am sure I will have a different answer regarding the best ride but right now I am pretty partial to Julie Krone\'s ride on Sweet Return at HOL Sunday - Popped the gate, got the lead and the rail, slowed the pace down to a crawl then got the jump on everybody turning for home and held off the hard-charging stablemate for the win.
Toss in the the juicy 16-1 odds and she gets my vote - at least for now.
Of course, I admit that I viewed the race with a major bias.
Cheers.
Chris
Hey CtC,
Your comments on Silver Charm are probably dead-on. In the Romans Study relinked to this site recently I thought the panel had him way overrated. Something like the 70th best horse of all-time. Not Hardly, though he is number one in my book.
When this topic got started, about the best rides, I said to myself that probably no one would say a wire-to-wire trip was a great ride. However rides like Pat Day on Wild Again (BC Classic #1) or Cordero on Spend a Buc in the Derby or Bold Forbes(?) in the Belmont are probably just as deserving.
Santos on Steinlen in the 89 BC was an incredible ride. The patience he showed and the hole he got through was unbelieveable.
I\'ll add another-- PVAL on FRAISE in the 1992 BC Turf. Perfectly timed and saved ground the entire 1 1/2.
When evaluating great rides, I think we need to consider when a horse beats a superior horse strictly due to the ride. No way FRAISE is within several lenghths of a horse like SKY CLASSIC, but Valenzuela\'s ride compensated albeit by the slimmest of margins.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
I agree Day\'s front-running ride in the preakness was great and often overlooked. It almost makes up for his hatchet job in the same race in \'89.
McCarron on Alysheba in the 87 Derby.
Especially thrilling because I had my first $100 wager ever on him ($100 WP - pulled in over $1800). When he won, I was sure of 3 things: 1. I saw the greatest performance by a horse - ever. I mean he falls down, gets up, gets shut off again by Bet Twice, recovers again and after the race is still eligable for a NW2. 2. McCarron put in the best ride I ever saw. 3. I was a great handicapper.
But seriously, any time a rider comes back alive it was a good ride........
Merry Christmas and happy New Year to all and to all a good night.
You mention a race dear to my heart. I bet Alysheba, and was as far as I know the only \"public\" handicapper to pick the horse before the race. More importantly, my friend Steve Nagler was producing the race for ABC, and had one iso camera left, and asked me which horse to put it on. I said Alysheba, they were in tight for the replay when McCarron almost came off, and it helped ABC and Nagler get Emmys.
A few years later Steve got another one when he had an unusual idea for where to put a camera during a race:
\"Mrs. Genter, Mrs. Genter, you won the Derby. I love you, Mrs. Genter...\"
If Bailey \"just followed\" Best Pal with Sea Hero it WAS the greatest ride ever...considering BP ran in the derby 2 years before SH.
Very interesting your selection of Alysheba and Congrats.
I would be curious to know what your \"handicapping\" thoughts were. The horse was wheeling back on 8-9 days rest from the Blue Grass Stakes. (That was the schedule in those days) I have seen his line and it did look good but he was coming in on short rest.
TG sheets for the previous Derby winners can be found in the Archives section of this site.
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
That race was 16 years ago, and I can\'t remember what I had for dinner last night. I remember I thought he was forward moving, and didn\'t like a lot of others.
But one thing this does bring up-- in the old days you would look for horses to run new tops in the Derby. In the last few years there have been very few new tops, with many horses hitting the board and winning while just pairing tops.
Better?
Yes
The short rest was something that made him tricky. I would like to give you and some of the other flawed competitiors credit for having that changed.
Races such as the Blue Grass and the Ashland were Derby and Oaks preps less than two weeks from the big show. Now they have been moved to 3 and 4 weeks out.
Remember when the Wood was 2 weeks out???
Who influenced this change???
The backing up of major Derby preps went on in the 1980s and 1990s. Without my classic PPs on hand (I have them all back to the late 1940s, but not at the office), I recall that it was about 1990, give or take a few years, that the Blue Grass, Wood Memorial and Arkansas Derby retreated to their present place on the calendar.
Since the early 1970s, there has been a reduction in the number of pre-Derby 3YO starts, a significant increase in the elapsed time between the final Derby prep and the Derby, and a decrease in the likelihood that higher-repute 3YOs take part in races at a mile or less. As late as the 1970s, a horse won the Derby with a 7f prep a week before the race, a strategy that had produced a fair share of Derby winners in years before but which would seem unthinkable now.
Phalaris great post.
Here is a bit of trivia.
What horse in that Alysheba Derby came in with the least amount of rest??
Hint: It wasn\'t Alysheba or War the DQ winner of the Blue Grass.
now were are getting before my time, but i watch the replays of last twenty or so travers each year at the spa on the morning of the big race. i think we have to add mccarron\'s travers ride on 49er to the best ride list. day saved all the ground on STG, but mccarron got the jump on Day, and the race was over before they even hit mid stretch. two great horses......... (anybody notice that mccarron\'s name has been popping up a lot on this thread?)
Post Edited (12-08-03 14:31)
I don\'t really know if his rides on Tiznow were great trips, but he rode the livin hell out of him down the stretch in both BC Classics.
i think in 15 or so horse fields, they were brilliant rides. if tiz was wrangled back in either race in order to save ground, he never would have won. he just wasn\'t explosive enough. the horse needed to be outside where he could just cruise along at his own solid pace (imagine if mccarron had him on the inside at Bel that day in order to save ground????)
On The Line - winner of the derby trial?
If this is addressed to me:
I was still using the Beyers, dosage, experimental hcp within 10 pounds of the highweight and the angle that you had to finish in the top three of your last race which also had to be a major Derby prep. Alysheba was DQ\'d from 1st to 3rd in the BG, had the dosage and was a dual qualifier and also had his entrapped epiglotis fixed before the Blue Grass. The short rest did not bother me, it was hall of famer Jack Van Berg training, so I figured he knew what he was doing.
I bet on BET TWICE throughout the Triple Crown and got rewarded for my patience in the BELMONT. I still argue that BET TWICE may have won the Triple Crown if he had come into the Derby with a recent race. Croll brought him in on 5 weeks rest.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
affirmedny--You are correct. On The Line ran in the Derby Trial which at that time was still considered the last remaining Derby Prep. Not anymore.
MO--the question was not directed at you but good answer. Those were some of the angles back then, not so anymore. How else did I come up Ferdinand?
He and Groovy were the only two dual qualifiers left.
Joe B--Croll claimed the horse got drugged on Derby Day which is actually something that probably happens quite often, just not in the manner he accused some unknown party of doing.
Silver Charm---
Croll was referring to HOLY BULL not BET TWICE.
Joe B.
Avies Copy, a longshot third in the 1987 Derby, was also coming out of the Blue Grass; On the Line took the field as far as he could, which was just about the quarter pole, before dropping back. If I recall, No More Flowers also came out of the Derby Trial that year.
1987 may be the last year that a horse ran in all three classics and the Met Mile in between. Gulch failed to hit the board in the classics, but did win the Met.
...and I think that there hasn\'t been a deeper, more competitive crop since 1987.
Post Edited (12-12-03 23:23)
>I bet on BET TWICE throughout the Triple Crown and got rewarded for my patience in the BELMONT. <
I also had Bet Twice in the Derby and was similarly rewarded down the line. That\'s the only Derby I actually attended.
BET TWICE was a good one. I agree that 1987 was the last really strong 3yo crop.
Phalaris-- GULCH ran 3rd in the BELMONT behind BT and CRYPTOCLEARANCE.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Thanks Joe B, I thought that was the case for Third in the Belmont. It was a nose photo and I believe it cost him the 1,000,000.00 bonus even though he won the Derby and Preakness.
While we have praised McCarron for several great rides was his Belmont on Alysheba a bad one, he claims he was too far back. Maybe he finally bounced, that was a lot of racing for five weeks.
Speaking of rides how about when Shoemaker and McCarron hooked up later in the BC Classic with Ferdinand and Alysheba. Shoemaker had the benefit of a target by the name of Judge Angelucci from the Whittingham barn (named after a real life Lexington, KY Judge).
Both jocks were riding each others horse the entire race when they got inside the eighth pole Shoe put Ferdinand to a full out drive and got the jump on McCarron, went by the Judge, and had enough to hold of a resurgent Alysheba as Tom Durkin barked a call that still gives me chills
\"AND THE TWO KENTUCKY DERBY WINNERS HIT THE WIRE TOGETHER\"
Silver Charm--
You are right; it did cost ALYSHEBA that point system bonus they had going at the time. Quite a painful day for Van Berg and the owners.
ALYSHEBA reminded me a little of PLEASANT COLONY. They had mediocre success in the late winter/early spring 3yo stake races, then they got good all of a sudden and at the right time.
Not being a Van Berg or Johnny \"I\'m a helluva trainer pal \" Campo fan, I believe both horses succeeded despite their trainers.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
\"AND CONCERN IS PICKING THEM OFF ONE BY ONE!!!!\" ........ durkin\'s call as bailey moved from about 12th to maybe 6th or 7th in the BC classic.
talking about great rides...this must have been one of the the greatest race calls of all time. most announcers would not have even given concern a call at that time (close to the top of the stretch), but durkin had a close eye on concern, and seemed to know what was about to happen... reading through this thread, i guess it is fair say that bailey and mccarron seemed to provide the most thrills for race fans from \'90 to 2002 or so...... a lot a great memories brought up on this thread; reminds me of how great this sport really is.
I spoke with Chris at the Ohio Derby and he takes all the blame for a bad ride in the Belmont. However, those were the days when lasix was a no-no in NY so Alysheba had to run without it. I think it was a combination of the two. It also taught me a very important lesson:
NEVER FALL IN LOVE WITH A RACEHORSE--THEY ARE JUST LIKE WOMEN- BREAK YOUR HEART EVERY TIME LOL
I Thought Alysheba was a lock and bet $200 to win at short odds. Never again.
Post Edited (12-10-03 15:52)
MO--
I agree with the \"they are just like women\"
analogy.
I have a picture of CHOPPININA in my office at work barely holding 2nd in the 2002 Atto Mile. ( i love that filly).
My wife wants to know why a horse\'s picture is there and not her\'s. I told her when she runs second for the exacta @ 55-1, I\'ll put her picture there too.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Speaking of women the Top Fillies from that Classic 1987 crop may have or were better than the boys. Not as deep but better at the top, no pun intended.
Think about it, Very Subtle destroyed the colts in the BC Sprint as a 3YO Filly, Miesque won the BC Mile that same year and the next year at CD.
That was also the year (at CD) when the then 4YO Personal Ensign closed out an undefeated career winning the Distaff. She also defeated colts Gulch, Kings Swan and others in the Whitney that same year.
Cordero on Bold forbes in the Belmont,Steve Cauthen on Affirmed ,in the Belmont was a great ride too .I just loved to watch Cordero,Jorge Velasquez or Willie Shoemaker.Speaking of which he did some job booting home Forego against Honest Pleasure,that has to be one of the great rides of all time, he also beat Slew \'s best in the JCGC .Shoemaker was a real joy to watch,he seemed to have horse just when he needed it. Jorge was the man when it came to the distance ,he was Johnny on the spot when the distance increased.Jorge rode a lot of nice horses ,his rides aboard Bowl Game or Proud Truth come to mind.
I remember in 76\' when Cauthen ruled the IDT , in part because Jorge Velasquez & Angel Cordero vacationed in warmer climes,when they returned they double teamed the kid.Junior was on some cheap speed nag for Oscar(this was before OSB found juice ,and his brothers Luis and Wille and Laz all had better careers than he)Cauthen had the figure horse who also had speed,anyway Junior and \"little Stevie \"go into the clubhouse turn,with junior pumping and slashing and making Stevie use his horse,FF 3/4\'s a mile and junior is pulling up ,Stevie inherits the lead,but here come Jorge to get by Stevie\'s tiring mount at a good price.I guess Jorge and Angel wanted \"the kid to see who the real bosses were.
Stale thread but I had to respond to your point about Day\'s \'89 Preakness \"Hatchet Job\".
I still don\'t know what that man was thinking. I believe you\'re probably knowledgable about the rein yank to quote \"Make Goer look him in the eye\". The worst was putting the brakes on with the turn move. That\'s Day though. He always rides to leave something in the tank.
You\'re right of course....Strikey knocked Best Pal off in \'91. Sea Hero found a seam inside Prairie Bayou.
I stand corrected. I won those Derbies you\'d think I\'d remember.
Senility.
CtC
Sorry, my mistake re Gulch .. that\'s what I get for writing posts on memory at the office on stressful days.
I agree that this was a particularly good Derby field - it drew several horses (Bet Twice, Gulch and Capote for starters) which had been major 2YOs; and from it came many horses that went on to prolific and major success after the classic season, starting with champions Alysheba and Gulch and certainly including Cryptoclearance, On the Line and Bet Twice. It would be a refreshing change of pace to see Derby starters going on in such numbers to win important post-classic races, not just later in the season but at age 4 and beyond.