http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/us/casino-cash-fuels-use-of-injured-horses-at-racetracks.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120430
This is not good. Some of the stuff in here-- like Pen not beginning pre race exams for soundness until last October-- is unbelievable. And will not help our industry.
By JOE DRAPE, WALT BOGDANICH, REBECCA R. RUIZ and GRIFFIN PALMER
....says it all!
JB,
Yeah, yeah irrelevant attention whores stumping derby week,whats new.Most of it old horse-spit stuff at mainly mickey mouse venues.Injecting horses liberally at Aqueduct,racing semi-cripples,50 years old at least.Lax racing officials at racino venues,really?? wow, what a scoop!!
Of course, politicians and loons, looking for political capital, will be all over this without bothering to look at the whole game.Perception of this stuff bad especially to casual horse fan or John Q Public.
Again, racing has problems in this regard, but the sky is falling take on this is way out there for anyone with a clue.
Joe Dope may get an investigative journalism award for this, BRILLIANT!!
Mike
Miff, look-- it may be an old story to you and me, but it is not to the public. And yes, a lot of it is a hit job-- but that doesn\'t make things like the Pen stuff okay.
Miff - I agree that the Times does go overboard. But reading this made ME want to throw up, and I do get the game.
Racing has some very large issues that need to be addressed right now. No more commissions. No more BS. How in the world Vet info is not available is just one of the more obvious.
We\'d all better pray that ever last one of those 20 horses comes home safe and sound on Saturday.
JB,
Penn racing should probably be shut down anyway, no one at the track,racing on slot money life support,shutdown good for consolidation.Perfect time for State of Penn to redirect slot subsidy away from racetracks.With no slot subsidy would give Parx/Penn 6 months before folding, same with Charlestown, et al.
The management at every racino would prefer NOT to have anything to do with the racing game anyway.Ahem, that would include the Genting Group at Aqueduct.In NY, NYRA protects the racing side, at other smaller/racino venues there is really no one looking that hard at the racing side.Certain the article is accurate in that regard.
As part of their licensing,racino\'s are required to have a live race meet and subsidize racing.Should not surprise anyone that smaller/racino venues could care less what is happening to the horses.Why do think the main focus of Joe Dope and co was mickey mouse venues like New Mexico and Pennsylvania? Wheres the \'stuff\' about NY,Cali,Florida, Kentucky which is where racing really lives?? A quote from Juan Serey re NY Racing,wow, Pulitzer prize winning stuff.
Mike
\"We\'d all better pray that ever last one of those 20 horses comes home safe and sound on Saturday\"
Phil,
Why, because the disingenuous politicians and the loons have the floor?
Horses have always gotten hurt and will continue to do so, it\'s the ugly part of the game.
Thinking the Times should investigate the NBA.Derrick Rose wearing 2 knee braces gone for the year with injury.He was unsound and should not have been allowed to play, probably injected before the game.
Hmmm now that I think of the NFL also has all kinds of issues with unsound players, concussions etc.In Hockey, their killing each other now, getting all kinds of hurt.
Athletes are subject to injury, horses fall into that category too.
Mike
Want to feel worse??? Read the comments made by the public following the on line article.
The ignorance is astounding.
Miff - I\'m with you on grandstanding politicos and all the bs that they spew. God knows they\'re only doing it because they see votes in it now that the Times has started shining lights on the issues.
But why did NYRA only just today institute the vets\' recommendation regarding claimers being at least 50% of purse value? This clearly was a known concern. Why did it take the threat (and that\'s what it is) of political action to make this change?
I guess I just think we (racing industry as a whole) could do a far better job ensuring the health and well being (both during and especially after their careers) of these animals. I\'m finding it harder and harder as an animal lover to be able to rationalize my love of the game with my concern for the athletes in it, who unlike human performers, don\'t exactly get a say as to when/where/how often they run.
I understand that many people\'s livliehodds depend on the sport but if far fewer races at far fewer tracks is what it takes to ensure that no more bottom level horses are abused, well, I could care less then about what it does to someone\'s job.
Of course that brings up the entire debate of what would happen to the present crop of lower level horses, how would they be retired or disposed of?
These are all tough tough questions. But I don\'t think racing does itself any good by refusing to address them. But I do recognize that there are a ton of people in the industry who love the animals too. Unfortunately it seems the only time change comes (think back to baseball and steroids) is when the feds get involved. Sad but true.
In the end i\'d imagine economics will eventually create the changes needed. States are running out of cash and will want to keep all the casino subsidies for themselves (ala Ontario). Which will lead to smaller tracks closing. Hopefully if there are fewer tracks, there will be fewer places that can get away with the stuff that we are hearing about in these articles.
\"Hmmm now that I think of the NFL also has all kinds of issues with unsound players, concussions etc.In Hockey, their killing each other now, getting all kinds of hurt.\"
Mike, I know it raises your blood pressure somewhat, but if you want to write accurate posts on the TG board you should really look at the Times a bit more often. Alan Schwarz was the guy who basically blew the lid off of the NFL\'s concussion scandal, and their article on that hockey goon who died recently got just as much real estate as these horse racing stories.
Magic,
Read the Times every day, but not the lightweight sportswriters. The article on racing is amateurish,heavily biased and clearly demonstrates the overall lack of racing knowledge of the writers as to what goes on day to day at the major venues.
Mike
NYRA has just been exposed for purposely stealing from bettors. They\'d better try to cover the, \"We sacrifice horses, too\" angle.
Umm... the NY Times has been covering dementia etc. among retired football players and hockey enforcers ad nauseum for at least the past year. The series on Derek Boogaard in December was like 15,000 words.
dunno miff, if the best defense for some of this stuff is that it\'s old news, we may be in trouble.
wall st robbed the public blind for 100 years, didn\'t stop the feds from changing many of the rules there in the 90\'s . of course, clever boys that they are, they found other ways.
Ummm, the problems you allude to are 20 years old. Covering it for a year, wow right on top of it that NY times investigative group.
They nailed the racing thing too, New Mexico/Pennsylvania real microcosms of racing at the major venues.
Mike I can see you have your mind made up about this, but the WHOLE point of the article is that PA and NM are NOT microcosms of racing at the major venues. The big increase in fatalaties as AQUeduct is tied into the whole new \"racino\" thing, and it\'s all about cheap, bottom level horses.
It\'s not like the writers are making stuff up. The timing is important because it\'s Triple Crown season and yes, they are trying to make a splash, but I don\'t understand slamming the writers. I\'m absolutely amazed that this many vets play ball on this kind of thing. Some of these guys need to go to jail and nothing is going to change until they do.
NFL is going to be facing major lawsuits and as others have pointed out there have been long articles about the NHL too. This is worse because the horses don\'t have a union.
As anyone who does crisis management in politics can tell you, you have to meet this kind of thing head on and deal with it. You\'re not going to make it any better by saying it\'s \"old news.\" Nobody cares, least of all people reading today\'s New York Times. It\'s old news AND new news and it\'s also BAD news, period. HP
\"Read the Times every day, but not the lightweight sportswriters.\"
The concussion stories have been on the front page several times, as was the hockey goon story. But why let the facts get in the way of your good story, eh?
... but the WHOLE point of the article is that PA and NM are NOT microcosms of racing at the major venues.
HP,
You cant be serious. The Times sole purpose was to \"expose\" the drugging of horses in ALL racing in the US,not just New Mexico/Penn. They would never get permission to write the article if it was solely aimed at two mickey mouse venues.The articles are clear shots at ALL racing and seek shock value.
Incidentally, meet exactly what head on? If you mean a PR exercise to give racing a clean appearance, will never happen no matter how they try to sanitize it.
Mike
Miff is the same joker who writes \"clueless clowns\" in 1000 posts a year. Now someone else is attacking the industry and he says it\'s just bias. So he can post the same garbage repeatedly, but let anyone else bring out some facts and he turns. He has his head up so many asses he doesn\'t know which side he\'s kissing.
Isn\'t that what you post at least 10 times a week though, \"clueless clowns\" and the rest of your garbage. So only you are allowed to call them out, but anyone else must be shut down? What a prick you are.
\"Miff is the same joker who writes \"clueless clowns\" in 1000 posts a year\"
That you Joe Dope??
I will lay off the invective because Mike actually posts some handicapping comments. But I totally disagree with your take on the article, and I\'m wondering what type of \"permission\" you think this kind of thing requires. The article doesn\'t talk about Saratoga. It is squarely focused on bottom level claimers and in NY it\'s totally focused on Aqueduct, which is the \"bottom\" of NY racing. I didn\'t see it as a broadside at all. And the Derek Boogard story was TERRIFIC writing, so I disagree with your comments about lighweight sportswriters as well. THAT series was award worthy, without a doubt. I\'m not a hockey fan and I thought it was riveting and just an incredible story.
HP
So, now we are seeing that using all the slots money to increase purses (so those increased purses would beget better racing which would beget better betting handles) was the WRONG way to distribute the slots money? How about keeping the purses at their pre-slots levels and taking ALL the slots money and seeding the betting pools with carryovers. Look at tiny harness track Dover Downs for example, ..their betting pools are MINISCULE. The harness racing action is pretty good and better than it was pre-slots era, but the betting pools are still very tiny. But, if that slots money went into the form of carryovers? (how about a 50k carryover seeded pick 4 pool every day, don\'t you think that Dovers betting pools would be much bigger if players were chasing that free 50k? Sure they would)
As far as the The Boogaard death goes, that has nothing to do with fighting in the NHL because if it did, wouldnt EVERY NHL Fighter meet his early demise? I didnt read the articles about this, but i\'m assuming that there was an \'outcry\' to ban fighting in the NHL. Also, Boogaard was a great fighter, it wasnt like he lost too many fights, it wasnt like he was constantly getting HIS brains beat in, it was normally the other way around. What about the fighters who Boogie man beat up who are still alive and living productive lives?
What about THOSE guys? Boogaard dished out more punishment that he accepted, same thing for Rick Rypien, he was also an \'amazing\' fighter who seldom lost fights. The interesting thing about Rick and Derek is that these guys weren\'t just ANY fighters, they were ELITE fighters, some of the best of all time.
Why would fighters who were considered in the list of all time greats be the ones dying if fighting was the main culprit? You would think that the guys who LOST those fights would be the ones more likely to have problems, no?
These fighters were not the \'jerry quarry\'s\' of their sport, and yet, as elite fighters go, they were dead while still actively playing as elite enforcers?
HP,
Was specifically speaking of the Times Racing reporters that wrote the biased racing articles.
Those writers ever had to face a panel of legitimate vets/trainers/owners,they would be laughed out of the room.
Good luck, be careful, Bode may go forward and run off the screen.
Mike
Good luck to you too Mike. Bode would be doing that without my money!
What I know about fighting is...some guys can take a lot of punishment and it never shows and some guys take a few bad shots and can\'t talk anymore. Boogard articles aren\'t really the point, just saying every sport has to face this kind of music on some level.
HP
Most people out there probably don\'t have a clue but, guess what buddy, they\'re the ones who decide whether this game gets subsidies. You better show them a little more respect or you might have to find another hobby.
What is with the two ad hominen trolls coming out?
Guys:
All of what is mentioned in the article has happened...some recent news...some old news...HOWEVER...perception IS reality...most of the folks who read the article don\'t remotely understand the intricacies of the \'game\' as those who post on this board...Even though this article (given the timing of it) might well be a classic hatchet job, most people will believe every word of it. Everyone on this board better hope that ALL of the horses in Saturday\'s Derby come home safely...Comments??
John
JB, I\'ve got a prop for you. You\'re an influential part of this industry. I\'ll venture a guess a lot of big money players use your product. Stop selling sheets for these junk tracks. Watch their pools dry up.
Joe Drape has always written hit pieces putting racing into the worse possible light. Look at his history. He is the PR mouthpiece for a certain segment of the industry with an agenda.
Notice that Joe is not writing about how NYRA officials have been caught with their hands in the bettor\'s pockets.
His \"Derby Week Exposes on Horse Racing\" are predictable.
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/128711/report-says-nyra-president-mislead-the-public-on-overcharges/
Good to hear from you Trackjohn. They finally knocked down the abandoned OTB on
Hylan Blvd (end of an era).
I have no problem with the authors of this article using sensationalism and
possibly exaggeration for the purpose of bringing about change in a
sport/business which desperately needs it.
It is sad that Michael Gill is still an issue; he should have been permanently
excluded from the game seven or eight years ago.
From the article which Girly linked
\"The Racing and Wagering Board investigators lay out a timeline that suggests
[Charles]Hayward and his former associate [DRF publisher] Steve Crist were in
correspondence about the problem and in agreement in keeping it quiet.\"
Say goodnight, Charlie.
Miff posted another article on this earlier today, see \"Clueless Clowns\".
Can\'t believe nobody commented on this, but the thread about Joe Drape is sizzling.
\"Say goodnight, Charlie\'
Bee,
From Albany,it\'s possibly worse than that, could be a willful violation of law making it a criminal act.
Mike
OK Mike, I have a question for you since you seem to want to differentiate between Mickey Mouse and Mighty Mouse venues. Where does Pimlico fall within that hierarchy because, in a few weeks, they run a pretty big race with lots of publicity.
yes, and Cuomo doesn\'t play....
Guess we shouldn\'t hold our breath waiting for Matt Hegarty\'s take on this. Steve
Crist\'s continued treatment of NYRA with kid gloves has been a pet peeve of mine
and a major part of NYRA\'s continuing mismanagement problem.
Bye bye NYRA and good riddance
Like Crist, hope he is not in any possible trouble. DRF/NYRA/CRIST/HAYWARD joined at the hip.
Richie,
How was your trip back to the fatherland of your degeneracy, Fairmont Park!
\" Wait! Look over there! Didn\'t you see Joe Drape write that article about somewhere else? \" - Charlie Hayward
True of Gill but there seems to be an effort to push this off on other venues as if there\'s no problem at home. Dutrow calls NY home.
JR-- that one is dead on. As for boycotting tracks, I have talked about doing that for years, but at this point events are moving much faster than I could-- there\'s going to be regulation, the only question is whether it\'s productive, counter productive, or much ado about nothing. Major Ky players are running around like chickens without heads getting people signed up to back Federal oversight without having read the current bill or having any idea what they are backing. I\'ve been working with the two major players (Udall\'s office, which wrote the legislation and the Jockey Club, which has put out a sensible plan) to get them to include forcing tracks to publish drug test results. Hopefully it will happen.
The other thing that would help-- and I can\'t figure out to implement it-- would be instead of adding money to purses, to use that money to subsidize expenses for owners. That would keep more of them in the game and dis-incentivize bad behavior.
Frank:
I did not get a chance to see the live product on Friday night, but went for simo
on Saturday.
Nice to see how in tune the simulcast handicappers are with the game. A TAP horse
was on the lead at Keeneland, and the guys at one table were yelling something
about the \"Pletcher Juice\". After Linda Rice won her third of four races on the
day, someone mumbled something about a raid on the barn by investigators the next
morning. And the comments after Wesley Ward bombed the Commonwealth at Keeneland
(especially after WW commented post race that the winner \"started doing really
well at Keeneland\") were humorous, on point, and for the most part rather obscene.
See ya in less than 90 days, pal. Hope you can adjust your schedule so that you
can attend a full day of racing on Friday.
Anybody but me wonder how they got the email?
Aside from that and the obvious stuff about NYRA, there\'s a bit of an issue about Crist and the DRF burying a very big story...
I don\'t know if your troll comment was directed at me or not, nor do I really care, but for the record the Times did run a piece on this very thing today (not with Drape\'s byline). It\'s on page A23.
Yeah. You noticed that, too?
Drf:
The New York Racing Association put two officials on administrative leave Monday after a report issued earlier in the day by the New York State Racing and Wagering Board challenged claims by the association it was unaware late last year that it had been incorrectly applying a higher takeout rate to its trifecta and superfecta bets.
The report called into question a statement by Charles Hayward, the NYRA president, that the association had made an "inadvertent error" when it applied the wrong takeout rate to the wagers over a period of 15 months. The report cited several e-mail exchanges involving Hayward that indicate he was at least aware that a law raising the takeout from 25 to 26 percent on the wagers in 2008 had sunset on Sept. 15, 2010, although the e-mails do not make clear whether Hayward was also aware that the sunset of the law required NYRA to reduce the rate to 25 percent.
After the report was released Monday, Governor Andrew Cuomo said that the state's Inspector General had been asked to conduct a probe into whether NYRA and its officials violated any state laws. Robert Megna, Cuomo's budget director, who is also chairman of a state oversight board with broad powers over NYRA, called the allegations in the report "deeply troubling."
NYRA chairman Steven Duncker said in a statement late Monday afternoon that Hayward and Patrick Kehoe, the association's general counsel, had been placed on administrative leave without pay, pending further review.
"NYRA takes the matters identified by the Franchise Oversight Board and the New York State Racing and Wagering Board extremely seriously,\" said Duncker. "NYRA will take all appropriate steps and actions to cooperate with the state's inquiries and insure the integrity of our operations."
The incident stems from a discovery late last year by the state's comptroller's office that NYRA had been incorrectly applying the takeout rate to trifecta and superfecta bets since the law raising takeouts on all wagers by one point expired 15 months earlier. When the law expired, NYRA did not lower any of its takeout rates. The association was not in violation of the law under the new takeout rules with one exception, the rate for trifectas and superfectas, where the maximum rate fell to 25 percent.
The report cites two e-mail exchanges. In the first, a racing fan e-mailed Hayward on Sept. 28, 2010 – two weeks after the takeout increase expired – to ask him whether the law had indeed expired.
"Would you mind letting me know if it has or hasn't, and if it hasn't, why?" the letter asked. Hayward responded by saying that he would forward the mail to the association's general counsel,
In the second, Steven Crist, the publisher emeritus of the Daily Racing Form , forwarded on Aug. 1, 2011, a letter from a reader that noted the law providing for the higher takeout rate had sunset and that NYRA's trifecta and superfecta rate "is currently outside the parameters of the law." The letter went on to say, "If NYRA wanted to lower takeout all they have to do is make to [sic] request to NYSRWB."
Hayward replied to Crist that the reader was correct and that NYRA was considering how to proceed on the matter. Hayward also said that he wanted to keep the discussion with Crist confidential.
Hayward is the former president and chief executive officer of Daily Racing Form.
Asked about the e-mail exchange, Crist said, "Then as now, I personally believe NYRA was not aware it was deliberately applying an incorrect rate."
\"Asked about the e-mail exchange, Crist said, "Then as now, I personally believe NYRA was not aware it was deliberately applying an incorrect rate." \"
How can you be unawares of something you are doing deliberately?
This may get ugly regarding who knew what, when.
Edit:
The Daily Racing Form reports this line different: \"Asked about the e-mail exchange, Crist said, "Then as now, I personally believe NYRA was not aware it was applying an incorrect rate."
Crist: "Then as now, I personally believe NYRA was not aware it was deliberately applying an incorrect rate."
This is utter horseshit if you read the emails.
It is an absolute scandal that the publisher of the world\'s leading racing publication, who writes blog posts complaining about various injustices done to horseplayers, would accept a weasely off-the-record response. And then to sit on information that was ripping off his readers is mind-boggling.
I am a journalist. Off the record means you can\'t used the information (in this case, NYRA\'s CEO\'s acknowledgement that the takeout was wrong) But he can use the fact that DRF knows the takeout rate is wrong to send David Grening to NYRA and DEMAND an on-the-record response.
If Crist were writing for the Times, he would have cut NYRA\'s balls off in a second. For some reason he sat on this information and it is a scandal.
Dead
Crist is friends with Hayward, Crist used to work for NYRA, Hayward used to work for DRF.
I know. Doesn\'t begin to excuse it.
Unless you bet through a NYRA account or had a signer, you\'re up a creek for the money you\'re due. It is millions of dollars.
They repaid the difference to all signers they could find.Discussion of making the rest of the unidentified players \"whole\" died.
Someone please explain to me why Crist hasn\'t resigned already.
He sat on evidence of horseplayers getting robbed?
How will he ever show his face at a racetrack again? He\'ll never hear the end of it from the bettors. He\'s got an earful coming from me, if I ever see him.
Inexcusable.
Rick this is REALLY bad. Crist has always portrayed himself as a \'friend\' of the bettors, a friend of the little guy and now this?
You could make the argument this this scandal is actually WORSE than the Chris Harn fix 6 scandal because the people involved in this were highly respected in the industry.
Bottom line is Crist and Charlie are friends above all else...until the state\'s witness thing comes up.
Miff if you handicap the Derby as well as you handicapped this one you will do alright. Great call on Heyward being axed! HP
Matt Hegarty\'s take on Takeoutgate was posted in DRF at 9:23 PM. Steve Crist is
listed as \"publisher emeritus\" of DRF.
Would you ruin a reputation to protect a friend?
Do the right thing, Charlie. And take PJ \"turf sprints\" Campo with you.
Miff, today you are the embodiment of cluelessness.
You think the Times has four racing reporters?
Further, if you think a bunch of vets, trainers and owners is going to laugh this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Bogdanich out of any room, I\'ll book that bet. If you think Drape is the one driving this bus, you\'re wrong again.
Full disclosure: I work at the Times, on the business side of things
BB,
Obviously a homer. No one at the Times has a clue about the racing game if those articles are representative of their knowledge of racing.
Mike
If you can\'t address someone\'s facts, impugn their motives. What - exactly - did the Times get wrong today?
JR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JB, I\'ve got a prop for you. You\'re an influential
> part of this industry. I\'ll venture a guess a lot
> of big money players use your product. Stop
> selling sheets for these junk tracks. Watch their
> pools dry up.
I don\'t think many big players play much at the smaller tracks. The pools are already small as it is.
Will be real interesting to see how the rest of the \"Horse Racing Media\" cover this...or choose not to
Agree. But what about not publishing numbers from some of the less reputable trainers at the bigger tracks? How many would play a race with an entry from a known juice trainer if you didn\'t have any data on the horse? Too far fetched?
JR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Agree. But what about not publishing numbers from
> some of the less reputable trainers at the bigger
> tracks? How many would play a race with an entry
> from a known juice trainer if you didn\'t have any
> data on the horse? Too far fetched?
No. But I think most of the players at the lesser tracks use DRF, and not sophisticated performance figures.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They repaid the difference to all signers they
> could find.Discussion of making the rest of the
> unidentified players \"whole\" died.
Certainly didn\'t see much about the latter after the initial brouhaha . . .
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like Crist, hope he is not in any possible
> trouble. DRF/NYRA/CRIST/HAYWARD joined at the hip.
Miff , How could you crucify NYRA and then hope Crist is not in any possible trouble. He is enabling the stuff you hate but yet you want him to get a pass..
F-him let him get roasted with all of them.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anybody but me wonder how they got the email?
>
>
Guessing? Insider access to Charlie\'s stored e-mails . . .
Top-- but who would go in, and why?
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Top-- but who would go in, and why?
Your original question is a good one, and sure as hell has legs.
Again, guessing . . . some NYS operative with \"access\", looking for a damning data trail. Suspect the truth will out, and sooner, rather than later.
plasticman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rick this is REALLY bad. Crist has always
> portrayed himself as a \'friend\' of the bettors, a
> friend of the little guy and now this?
>
> You could make the argument this this scandal is
> actually WORSE than the Chris Harn fix 6 scandal
> because the people involved in this were highly
> respected in the industry.
Thus far, the DRF doesn\'t appear to be censoring (the many, many) comments re this story at the Form\'s website . . . plenty of knife-throwing . . .
Today\'s Times has an article about how they are cutting purses. The money quote in the article comes from Gary Stevens.
"If there's no raceday medication, you'd solve a lot of problems," Gary Stevens, a retired Hall of Fame jockey, said.
He spoke of how he refused to ride in cheaper races and for certain trainers in California because he knew that they used drugs to mask the pain of sore horses. Stevens also said that he had ridden extensively in Hong Kong and Europe, where drugs were banned on raceday and penalties for violations were harsh. Stevens said that he never feared for his safety overseas.
"I never had a horse break down in these countries," he said. "It was pure and it was a pleasure."
Would be great if Stevens could secure a spot currently occupied by \"clueless clowns!\" Now that LUCK is over maybe he can do it. Hard to argue with his qualifications and he gets right to the point.
Article here
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/sports/new-york-cuts-race-purses-to-protect-horse-safety.html
HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Today\'s Times has an article about how they are
> cutting purses. The money quote in the article
> comes from Gary Stevens.
>
> "If there's no raceday medication, you'd solve a
> lot of problems," Gary Stevens, a retired Hall of
> Fame jockey, said.
>
> He spoke of how he refused to ride in cheaper
> races and for certain trainers in California
> because he knew that they used drugs to mask the
> pain of sore horses. Stevens also said that he had
> ridden extensively in Hong Kong and Europe, where
> drugs were banned on raceday and penalties for
> violations were harsh. Stevens said that he never
> feared for his safety overseas.
>
> "I never had a horse break down in these
> countries," he said. "It was pure and it was a
> pleasure."
>
> Would be great if Stevens could secure a spot
> currently occupied by \"clueless clowns!\" Now that
> LUCK is over maybe he can do it. Hard to argue
> with his qualifications and he gets right to the
> point.
>
> Article here
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/sports/new-york-
> cuts-race-purses-to-protect-horse-safety.html
I\'m a Stevens fan . . . but he could afford the luxury.
It\'s a big mistake to think that banning drugs and eliminating drugs are the same thing. A lot of drugs being used are being banned now.
Check out www.paulickreport.com(NHBPA responds to NY Times) to read a response to the NY Times article.
Seems Joe Drape and co got the facts/stats substantially wrong but what can you expect from those with a biased agenda.
Miff-- I took a quick look at that thing, and unfortunately I don\'t have any blood pressure medicine near, so if I don\'t post for a while you\'ll know what happened.
The Times may or may not have gotten anything wrong. The response to the article INTENTIONALLY misrepresents at least some facts that I know of-- after that became clear I stopped reading because once you know that\'s true, there\'s no way I or anyone else can know if the OTHER \"facts\" are true.
They claim 25% of horses that race in this country are tested, by rule. a) They are not (as of 2008 they were testing 2 horses A DAY in Maryland), and b) there\'s testing and there is testing. To choose just one example, Pennsylvania announced in 2010 they were going to BEGIN to test for TCO2-- you think that \"clean\" tests from 2000-2009 mean anything?
This crap-- and that\'s the most benign term I could use-- is EXACTLY what is wrong with this f-----g game. Instead of taking that article as a wakeup call, the immediate reaction is to protect the status quo, circle the wagons. What f-----g nonsense. Idiots.
sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"Asked about the e-mail exchange, Crist said,
> "Then as now, I personally believe NYRA was not
> aware it was deliberately applying an incorrect
> rate." \"
>
> How can you be unawares of something you are doing
> deliberately?
>
> This may get ugly regarding who knew what, when.
>
> Edit:
>
> The Daily Racing Form reports this line different:
> \"Asked about the e-mail exchange, Crist said,
> "Then as now, I personally believe NYRA was not
> aware it was applying an incorrect rate."
Whenever the overall spin efforts get too much for anyone, calmly return to page seven of the NYRA Takeout/Interim report, and refresh yourself with Hayward\'s lengthy-paragraph e-mail excerpt . . . reset your mind . . . and continue to approach this with the kind of critical thinking necessary to regard it properly -- the same kind of approach demanded (to draw a parallel) by the present Penn State brouhaha.
You are talking about the New York Times of the 21\'st century now aren\'t you?
If you were talking about the Times of the 1950\'s through the 80\'s I might bite...your paper has lost it\'s integrity for years now...\"All the News thats fit to print\"..yeah right!!...I mean left....
NCTony
The last time we had a reason for breakdowns was the racing surface was not safe, and we got Polytrack et al.....now it over stimulating the Claiming purses with racino Money thats causing the bad behavior...and we still have breakdowns...Even at Keeneland on Poly.
What will the next over reaction be?....
I just cant wait to see.
NC Tony
Just Curious, when they do their Handicapping Seminars at Saratoga are they Pro Bono or are they Getting Paid a fee?
Right, a 100% increase in breakdowns at Aqueduct and the article is an overreaction.
And right again! the article is a product of a left wing liberal conspiracy at the Times, which has no credibility.
If they write about it, that\'s no good, and if they don\'t write about it, someone would say they had their heads in the sand.
HP
The Michael Gill part of that Story is really Old News (2010)
http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/tags/jockeys/default.aspx
PETA is LEFT of Center don\'t you agree?...Its partially a sensationalized story for Derby week..to enhance the cause...A Story the TIMES would Support (just my opinion with that slant on it) Why not right this story last month if you are really concenrned about Horse Safety?? (Its to sell papers this week to people who would not otherwise buy perhaps? After all its all business in the end of the day).
But with all that Being said, My point is DRUGS is whats doing this...always has and always will unless dramtic changes are put in place or current policies and laws are enforced or modified as needed...Incentives with Higher Purses may be todays reason for the breakdowns....so Now we lower the purses..the last time it was Track surface as the culprit...and we got Poly.
Stop the DRUGS STUPID!!! Don\'t Race UNSOUND HORSES...ENFORCE YOUR OWN POLICIES.
Yes the timing of the story is to capitalize on Derby week, but what\'s going on at Aqueduct is relatively NEW news with the racino just coming in there. I don\'t see the connection you are making to the polytrack issue at all. Every business has sport has MANY issues to contend with. They aren\'t all related. Polytrack was an attempt to improve the safety of the game. I don\'t like it, but there it is. What does that have to do with the impact of raising purses on bottom level claimers? Absolutely none that I can see...
Instead of railing at the Times and Joe Drape you should aim your invective at the people running the show, who can\'t even be bothered to follow the rules or figure out how to pay the players correctly. Are you going to write to NYRA and tell them you think they should stop racing unsound horses? Maybe. But the article provoked SOME response and that\'s not really a bad thing, is it?
You can knock the Times and the writers, but it doesn\'t change the facts, and they are ugly. I love the game but I\'m not going to defend a lot of this nonsense. Even when they catch the guys they don\'t do much. HP
What do you think the cause is or do you think there hasn\'t been an increase?
Tony-- That\'s so far off the mark it\'s ridiculous. You don\'t like the Times editorial slant, fine, but that has nothing to do with their reporting or integrity, so if you have specifics there make your case. As For PETA, you\'re going to have to give me a working definition of \"left\" if an animal rights organization-- misguided, possibly intellectually dishonest or not-- lands anywhere on a left-right spectrum.
Not sure I understand your question JR, but if you are asking about the increase in breakdowns at Aqueduct the article explains that there is more incentive to race unsound bottom level claimers since the purses have gone up dramatically. HP
You\'ve answered my question and, without having any inside knowledge of the sport, I\'m inclined to agree with you. Steroids and pain masking medications keep unsound horses running when they should be rested or retired. I believe the breakdown rate across the pond is half what it is in this country and I don\'t think they permit any use of steroids.
We haven\'t permitted steroids for three years now. Can\'t blame them.
I was directing that question to NCTony. I was wondering what cause, if not the ones named in the article, he would attribute the increase to or did he not think there was any increase.
Really! Shows how much I know. Thanks for the update.
Another thing to consider, is that running turf is different, both in style and stress on the animal, than running on a constructed dirt over a base track.
The lowest breakdown rate anywhere has always been about 0.5%. That may be the \"baseline\" rate that will never go lower. Of course we should always try and protect the horse first.
It\'s really not too difficult a business model: expensive horses with big name trainers have richer owners, that tend to be hobby owners, that spend money they earn elsewhere on health care and sports medicine. Cheap horses do not have that luxury of indulgent trainers and owners with big pocketbooks, and are also responsible directly for literally paying the feed bill on a monthly basis.
Banning and stopping use of are two different things. Milkshakes were banned in Ky in the late 90\'s. They began testing for them in 2006. Pennsylvania I discussed yesterday.
The amount of clueless, fact-free assertions that have been been posted here about Monday\'s story in the Times is rather ironic, to say the least.
\"Why not right this story last month if you are really concenrned about Horse Safety?\"
Did you miss this story? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all It ran on the front page of the Times on March 25, 2012.
\"Its to sell papers this week to people who would not otherwise buy perhaps? After all its all business in the end of the day\"
Yes, Tony. The Times bought three years worth of race charts and had some of their best people spend months analyzing the data so they could make a fortune selling some extra copies of Monday\'s paper. If you think writing stories about the mistreatment of horses in a paper that sells for $2.50 a pop is the way to spike your numbers you have zero clue about what drives newsstand sales.
\"Stop the DRUGS STUPID!!! Don\'t Race UNSOUND HORSES...\"
Did you even SEE the article? On page A12, in between the headlines that say \"One Horse, One Week of Injections\" and \"Big Casino Purses Help Push Hurting Horses to the Limit\" is a six-inch high graphic covering the width of the page, showing seventeen hypodermic needles representing the drugs that one horse received in a one-week period. Sheesh!
Jerry You missed the point copmpletely.
I know your politico leanings - its really not about that.
If the author was so concerned about the horse, then write the story sooner rather then waiting for Derby week point.Maybe we could have had action sooner? Seems like something was done after the story was written. Maybe we could have saved just one more animal.
PETA is an extremist organization period. The Michael Gill Penn National Story is Old news...why bring it up now and Make it part of this?
Ok The article I read was dated April 30, 2012. What are you talking about?
And yes I agree we need to stop using the drugs on Animals just to get them race.
And out of those 17 drugs, tell me which ones are potentially harmful, and which are not, but are only good routine medical care of an athletic horse.
That photo is only there for ghastly shock value. And frankly, I doubt they were all actually given in one week. Maybe over a month.
Tony-- You don\'t know my political \"leanings\". You\'re right it\'s not about political leanings, but you\'re the one that brought political leanings up.
You didn\'t call PETA an extremist organization, you called them \"left of center\". There are plenty of extremists who are not left of center. Ask those who knew people at the building McVeigh blew up, or the abortion clinic in Kansas. And that\'s true whatever your or my \"leanings\" are, or what anyone thinks of the issues involved.
I try to lean objective.
I think we can all agree that PETA is an FBI-listed domestic terrorist organization that has funded blowing up buildings, right?
I am not getting any of this.
I don\'t disagree, there is an Increase in Aqueduct beakdowns, but this (breakdowns) has been going on throughout the industry for years, for many reasons. Not all due to Drugs, but the majority of those that happened at Aqu seem to have (a one year data point) and we have jumped to the conclusion that it\'s the purse structure thats doing that. Probably right, but not scientifically proven. You\'d have to see all the data on all the breakdowns etc
When Synth/Poly became all the rage, it was put in to prevent Horse Breakdowns back then. Now we are talking about more breakdowns only because it happens to be in NEW YORK, since thats where unless it happens there, no one seems to give a rats behind. When all the breakdowns were happeneing at Santa Anita and all many of the other Cali tracks, The State madated each track put in Synthetic surfaces, with the intention of it being to prevent breakdpowns.
Breakdowns keep occuring. I agree Increasing the purses for Low Level Claimers and Keeping unsound Horses running is a valid Point. My only poorly stated Point is, this is not really a New Issue. Its been happening for quite some time, now we only seem to care in 2012. It only seems to matter if it happens in New York.
I really dont get it Jerry.
Ok you win. Your Sight, Your Right.
The New Yor Times Is Objective.
We know the article was written to capitalize on Derby week. Yes, the Michael Gill stuff is old news. What I object to, with Joe Drapes writing over the years, is that he seems more interested in eliminating horse racing rather than fixing or helping it. He doesn\'t seem a fan of the sport at all when he writes about it.
Here\'s what I\'d like to see for racing. A national organization that oversees the rules like NFL. Two seats on the board elected by trainers, two by jockeys, two by owners, two by breeders, two by track owners and managers. Then a President, VP, Secretary, Treasurer elected at large. All vote but the President, who only votes for ties.
It will never happen, because the individual states will not give up their power or fifedoms.
Dang, you have been spending a lot of time on the golf course. Envious! Good for you!
The link I provided was to a similar story the NYT ran on 3-25-12 which - you may find this hard to believe - caused an even bigger stink than did Monday\'s article.
Isn\'t there supposed to be another article in the series next week, too?
Sight, I was only pointing out that the \"It\'s the drugs, stupid!\" was in fact a big part of Monday\'s article. Agree the visual was intended to make a impact and I will not claim to know the risks and benefits associated with any of those drugs.
I will add, if the purpose of good journalism is to get people talking about important subjects in a substantive way, I think these articles have been extremely effective.
Don\'t know. Could be.
Tony - yes, you are not getting any of this.
Did you read the article? I can\'t imagine you\'d be saying any of this if you did.
It gives the info on the Aqueduct breakdowns and they are mostly in the bottom level claimers. 100% increase. In one breath you talk about writing the article earlier to save even one horse and NOW you write we need scientific evidence, which means not acting NOW, right? Fortunately the people in charge did NOT need this so-called scientific evidence because they can see what\'s going on right in front of them (as highlighted in the article) and they acted on the purse structure. Not that it\'s going to save every horse but it\'s something.
You make another point about how it\'s related to NY, when the article goes on and on about Penn National and other lower rung tracks that have inflated purses with the new racinos. DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE? Pennsylvania. COLUMNS of it.
You keep talking about polytrack. This has NOTHING to do with polytrack. It\'s about horses getting hurt because there is incentive to give unsound, cheap horses excessive amounts of painkilling drugs to race now since the purses for these low level races have increased so dramatically. While this is not BRAND NEW, yes, it has entered a MAJOR MARKET in NYC through Aqueduct. What part of this is beyond your comprehension and what the hell does it have to do with polytrack? Wow. Polytrack is a surface horses race on, and this is all about drugging horses. Never the twain shall meet.
Also, in case you haven\'t noticed, this is how newspapers work. On New Year\'s they write about resolutions. On Valentine\'s Day, romance. Oscar Week, movies. The calendar dictates content. Derby Week, they write about horses! How often do you see horse racing stories on the front page of national newspapers? That would be...NEVER! Unless it\'s Derby Week. That\'s how it is. Should not be a surprise, nor does it invalidate the article. If this is when they get around to talking about it, better late than never.
Finally, what the hell does this have to do with PETA or politics? Really...I\'ve read other posts of yours which made sense...but this is just totally incoherent. HP
Sight and NCT:
I will repeat myself: If a journalist takes an extreme stance on one side or
another, and the result is a dialogue which brings about necessary change, I have
no problem with it.
The timing of Drape\'s article will have no effect on the handle on this years
Derby.
Yes Michael Gill is an \"old problem\", but that\'s part of Racing\'s problem -- the
bad guys never seem to be punished. The punishment sometimes needs to be draconian
for the mere purpose of deterring future wrongdoers.
Racing is so ineffective at catching cheaters. When Racing does manage to
catch a cheater, especially a multiple offender, punishment needs to be severe.
HP
I\'ve been sent the article by 3 different people besides reading it hear today. I\'ve read the article.
You proved my point completely when you don\'t know the history behind synthetic tracks and why they are even here.(Same Issue Breakdowns- Surface was to blame for the Breakdowns back then, not Greed)
I get it, All the Breakdowns that Occured At Aqu this winter are linked to cheap claimers and the increased purse structure. The Racino purse structure is to blame for the abhorent behavior of some unscrupulous trainers and owners doing this, purely out of greed. (See Oscar Barrerra GASPAR MOCHERA Pistol Pete and Tricky Dick Dutrow...meaning its nothing new ETC).
Understanding the reason behind each break downs tells us nothing, knowing the details for oneself versus taking it as fact from a writer who has a \"point\" of wanting to kill the industry as a whole, really does not matter.
Is it only Purse structure that caused this? Greed is incentivising this behaviour in the racing industry and nothing more. How Novel.
The PENN Nat story is 2 years old, nothing was done then. So are all of the
Yeah I do get it, HP, I did say its about business after all...or did you miss reading that?
I Gave UP the PETA Politics Gig, you guys can beat me down on that one, except that they are going to use this story too to Kill the Industry, kind of the way they did with LUCK (Which stunk anyway, but thats a different issue).
THE POINT IS :
IS THIS REALLY NEW NEWS ?? JUST BEACUASE SOMEONE WROTE IT IN A NON RACING PERIODICAL ITS NOW ANY MORE MEANINGFUL THEN IN THE PAST? BECAUSE IT HAPPENED AT AQU, NOW ITS IMPORTANT? None of this is new News, its sensationlized for Derby week, its been going on for Decades. Maybe this article will shed a few more eyes on this problem, but Im Sceptical. This too shall passor blow over in a few more days after Derby week is gone. TGJB has been pushing the Drugs issue for Years, and still nothing has happened.
Have fun Good Luck betting the Derby!!
NCT
Richie...
I don\'t disagree with you at all!!!
Maybe as I am getting Older I just don\'t see racing doing anything to improve itself or its image. The Greed angle has been around since Racing Started, so have Drugs and ways to cheat.
So if the article creates a Draconian Racing Board and gets rid of the Cheating Hooray!!.
My Main Point here it\'s really nothing new..right?
NCT
I agree with virtually all you say. Racing\'s response to this type of thing is simplistic and shallow: eliminate steroids, and more ridiculously, to think about eliminating lasix? It\'s beyond absurd, how incompent horse racing is at managing their sport. But do I want Congress involved? Never in a million years.
When was the last time you saw this on the cover of the New York Times? That would be NEVER. Come on.
The history of polytrack? You\'re kidding right? The INTENTION of polytrack was to cut down on breakdowns. Giving cheap horses painkillers to run in $10,000 claimers for big purses has exactly...what to do with polytrack? Just totally incoherent. No connection at all. I\'ll accept your expertise on polytrack and synthetic surfaces and the history, etc., since it has absolutely nothing to do with this article. You win.
Lots of examples of old news and problems finally coming to a head and being dealt with. I doubt this is one of them, but I thought the article was good and hard to understand people attacking it, and throwing in the kitchen sink like PETA and polytrack to do so.
We can agree to disagree, and good luck with the big race. HP
I think the point is that, when confronted by something \"untoward\" or \"distastful\", the grand old wealthy poobahs of racing tend to clutch their pearls, get hysterical and find someone or something to blame. Drape enjoys feeding their hysteria.
Rather than doing something of actual substance or meaning.
No, Tony, you don\'t get it.
The news is the FACT THE ARTICLE EXISTS, itself. You think that the public-- especially the average NY Times reader-- knows the Gill story?
You are right again Jerry.
I cant disagree with your point, No average New York Times Reader would know the Gill Story because the New York Times rarely covers racing in the first place in the New Millennium.
Is it your hope that industry people might pick up on it an care enough to act?
Why is this not covered by industry periodicals such as the Bloodhorse, or DRF, or Thoroughbred Times or other industry periodicals. Why don\'t they include the article in their publications? You might get interested parties who might feel motivated to do something. The article in the NYT is in the wrong venue and wrong audience. The people who should be writing this article (inside the industry) don\'t and probably won\'t.
So now the Story Exists, what does it mean? I\'m sure I can dig up story after story after story about Greed and Greed motivated drugging of horses over the entire history of racing, whether it be for Purses which is the basis of this article or the horses value itself (to be claimed or puchased outright)
The same old thing, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. People have very short term memories,This article is the story of the month, and will be out of our memories when the next expose is written in a few months / years. Its sad, but they keep writing these. I Guess the poly/breakdown analogy is already long forgotten (but was it really the drugs back then too?) We ourselves the bettors are hypocrates. Us Handicappers still go on betting and bitch and complain about this issue, but keep coming back for more.
Maybe the thinking here is, with this article real change will happen.
I know the subject is near and dear to your heart, and I know Drugs in Racing and information sharing of drug usage, milkshaing Co2 levels etc on race day in racing is an important thing to you and to me.
Now if you told me you were so damn disgusted with all of this, and will stop publishing figures for such a corpupt industry, as being portrayed here, due to your strong moral convictions, I would take this much more seriously.
I do get it Jerry.
Good Luck with your Seminar.
NC Tony
http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Editorial-Bad-to-worse-at-NYRA-3526040.php
Tony-- the Times article was the second, supposedly two more are coming. Incoming...
There was a Congressional hearing the day after the article came out, you can probably find out about it on Bloodhorse. There is tremendous pressure-- this time coming from people INSIDE the industry, including those with names like Strawbridge and Hancock-- to get the Feds to come in and run the show. Which I would not be averse to-- if it was done right. Which with the current atmosphere of hysteria is the opposite of what could happen.
The outfit which has been doing some serious work on this is the Jockey Club. They issued a pretty thoughtful bunch of recommendations a month or two ago, you can probably find those too.
Jerry,
Thanks for sharing this.
I guess what I don\'t want to see happen is another implementation of Synthetics to to solve breakdowns when it was the damn drugs and use of other performence enhancers to horses that should not be on the track. More public information etc.
I didnt realize this is part two of a series, and thought it was completely stand alone.
I am Glad to see real industry people are taking this seriously and getting the Feds or some central governing body involved here. The Jockeys can play a key role here, if they all take action together on certain trainers or tracks.
Anyway I will be following this closely, from here. I am hoping for the best.But still skeptical, with good reason. We\'ve been down this path before.
Its really sad to see the deterioration of a sport that was so grand once, and is not even respected by even a small segment of society and has pretty much lost the youth of this country. I hope it survives beyond the next generation or two. When I am in Kentucky, when playing or talking Horses, no one thinks of you as a degenerate gambler, where pretty much the rest of our society thinks of \"Luck\" and people like that when going to most tracks around the country.
Again Best to you and the Seminar. Cant wait to see it when it comes out.
NC Tony
Seminar is up now, judging from the 68 people who took it in the first 15 minutes you guys have been shockingly patient.
Now we need the Rangers to win tonight....
Thanks!