Ask the Experts

General Category => Ask the Experts => Topic started by: Boscar Obarra on March 24, 2012, 10:45:05 PM

Title: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: Boscar Obarra on March 24, 2012, 10:45:05 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html?_r=1

Illegal doping, racing officials say, often occurs on private farms before horses are shipped to the track. Few states can legally test horses there.

"They are pharmacist shops," said Dr. George Maylin, the longtime head of New York State's testing laboratory. "Nobody has any control over what they are doing."
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: miff on March 25, 2012, 07:12:51 AM
The actual day to day racing knowledge,including that of,ahem,award winning Joe Drape, and those reporters could fit on the head of a pin.Wonder how many 5- am wake up calls they had over their years, covering racing, to be on the backside  interacting with vets, trainers,jockeys, owners. Portrayal is kinda like Luck only showing the darkest side of the game.

Conveniently only quoted Rick Arthur and George Maylin as it suited their biased slant on the article.I\'ll get you 10 practicing vets from several different veunues to dispute some of bullshit misrepresentations.We know there\'s an element of cheating and mismanagement of the game. Whats new?

Ruidoso Downs? who gives a f--k, except of course for the horrible fate Jackey Martin. Great fodder for the loons and phony disingenuous politicians that may seek to gain political capital by stumping on this old news!

NYRA getting a little smarter, slashing purses for the low level claimers, raising the minimum claiming price AND \"reviewing\" certain entries.I recommended a \"7 and out rule\" whereby a maiden horse that does not finish at least 5th in one of 7 consecutive starts, be barred from entry at NYRA tracks.

Mike
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: richiebee on March 25, 2012, 07:55:07 AM
How about barring permanently a horse who has been vet scratched 3 times?

Agree that the impact of the article was weakened by the mixing of QHs and TBs.

Drape and The Times could have sprung this article in the week leading up to
the Derby for maximum effect.

I would have focused the article on NYRA. The cheapening of the quality of
Racing coupled with increased purses for the cheap runners and the not
surprising resulting unprecedented number of breakdowns.

No mention of the conviction of leading owner Ernie Paragallo in the article.

Dutrow and Biancobra: No matter what one thinks of the trainer responsibility
rule, or the culpability of these two individuals, Racing had a good chance to
fire a shot across the bow of the habitual offenders and the denizens of the
grey areas: \"We will deprive you of your livelihood if you cheat.\"

Once Dutrow\'s suspension was stayed, NYRA should have immediately pulled his
stalls.

Lots of changes need to be made. Start in New York.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sekrah on March 25, 2012, 10:39:42 AM
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Portrayal is kinda like Luck only showing the
> darkest side of the game.
>


Luck didn\'t even remotely portray the darkest side of the game.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sighthound on March 25, 2012, 10:43:55 AM
Joe Drape is the personal mouthpiece of the poobahs in racing elite that want to eliminate Lasix and take us back a century in horse health.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: miff on March 25, 2012, 11:17:24 AM
Sek,

So a drunk jockey, a few broken down seedy looking gamblers living in a racetrack motel,a scheming trainer, manuvering and betting, a \"wise guy\" with hidden ownership and horses breaking down or getting hurt.

Thats pretty dark imo.


Mike
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: TGJB on March 25, 2012, 11:36:00 AM
Look-- is it a hit piece? Yes. Does that mean it\'s completely wrong, or that racing is doing its job when it comes to protecting horses and customers? No. The best part of the aticle is that it mentions how little is being done about proper testing, that tracks don\'t care or don\'t want to spend the money. That is 100% correct.

As I said about three weeks ago (to two of the people mentioned in the article), in this business carrots don\'t work. This is a stick, and a relatively mild one that will again be ignored by lots of racetracks. They\'re not the ones riding or betting the horses.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: alm on March 25, 2012, 12:17:15 PM
This was a very well crafted and cynical article with in depth coverage of problems mainly at quarterhorse tracks interspersed with occasional references to the thoroughbred scene.  Extraordinarily biased in that regard and written to make an exaggerated point.

That doesn\'t mean I disagree with you Jerry Brown.  I think you are a sane unbiased voice and hope you always stay positive in your stance.

One question, however: I mostly have raced in Florida and my trainer stopped using steroids when they were banned.  OK...that forced me to retire a cheap, but nice mare who needed the muscular support, who raced healthier when she got stronger.  We pulled her off the track immediately after the ban, knowing she would deteriorate and likely injure herself without the steroids.  She was never lame and is a nice riding horse for a woman in Indiana now.

So when has anyone there started using the stuff again?  The guys who used to be considered the steroid abusers seemed to have cooled off significantly these past couple of years.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: Boscar Obarra on March 25, 2012, 02:07:46 PM
Noticing quite a few ease jobs the last few days. Told not to persist with tired horses?

 Of course, the racing at Finger Lakes south has been conducive to such performances.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sekrah on March 25, 2012, 04:12:19 PM
There was no race fixing.  No doping.   Those two are by far the worst and most nefarious things about horse racing.

The characters, such as a drug addict, are no different than you\'d see in any profession.   There are drug addicts everywhere.  There are gambling degenerates everywhere, whether horse racing, sports betting, poker tables, slot machines, or lottery tickets.

The main characters main story line had nothing to do with horse racing, and all the horse scenes with him were very endearing.    90% of the horse scenes (outside of the breakdown and other accidents) were very wholesome and positive of the ownership scene.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: JR on March 25, 2012, 06:28:11 PM
Come to Pimlico my friend.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: JR on March 25, 2012, 06:31:21 PM
Like Dutrow? BTW, wasn\'t he banned about 100 wins ago?
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: richiebee on March 26, 2012, 06:11:24 AM
Sight:

I agree that the total elimination of Lasix is not practical, but don\'t you
think we could turn the clock back 30 years or so and only administer Lasix to
runners which actually \"bleed\"?
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: dlf on March 26, 2012, 06:28:58 AM
Richie:
Part II of the series is going to focus on NYRA (about 2 weeks from now).
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: TGJB on March 26, 2012, 09:01:35 AM
Just letting bleeders use lasix is way too reasonable an idea to happen.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: Rich Curtis on March 26, 2012, 09:17:25 AM
Doesn\'t that provide too many perverse incentives, Lasix being a performance enhancer?

I think it\'s possible to make a good case for letting only non-bleeders use Lasix.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: miff on March 26, 2012, 09:36:58 AM
JB,

As you know,many horses on lasix, or not, will scope dirty after a race or work,albeit sometimes very minor. Why is lasix, as a preventative, a problem if everyone can use it. What good could possibly come from an animal bleeding even once if lasix helps avoid that.There is no science that pinpoints lasix as being responsible for the unsound modern horse.Administration of lasix by track vets should be enough to move the conversation on to far more important issues.

You are aware that the lasix \"masks\" other illegal stuff was laughed out of the room by science.Many of those stumping on banning lasix/clean up the game are cleverly deflecting attention from racings deeper problems,many of which evolved under the stewardship of the Clueless Clowns at the helm.

Mike
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: JR on March 26, 2012, 10:24:55 AM
From what I\'ve read of your posts, you sound like a reasonable and knowledgeable voice. Could you elaborate on what you think are racings deeper problems?
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: miff on March 26, 2012, 12:13:49 PM
JR,

Briefly,there are 32-33 States that sanction racing and getting them to common ground on anything is very difficult. If just California, NY, Kentucky and Florida \"partnered\",the rest may fall into line.The chances of that are modest and I\'d guess not even thought of.Too many venues looking at racing from a totally parochial viewpoint.Recently, for example, NY Racing Chief Honcho Sabini mocked Kentucky racings problems, too uninformed to realize that the demise of Kentucky racing would eventually lead to NY racings demise.Sabini,a political appointee, unable to reconcile NY racings unjust enrichment from slot money vs Kentucky racing,still fighting for a slot subsidy to assist with enhancing Kentucky\'s racing program.

The perception of racings problems are greater than it\'s actual problems.Economy aside,I\'d say the greatest problem the game must deal with is unseating most of those in charge,a tall order.The disconnect between those running the game and those regularly supporting it at the windows could not be greater.

Second thing right now is that all things negative about racing are being exploited by attention whores with an agenda. The article in the NY Times and the stumping by a few politicians/breeders/blue blood owners are examples.I\'ll disagree with anyone that this NY Times article is anything more than an attention grabber,it\'s content totally skewed to the negative side.They took every negative thing they could find and only quoted credible sources who voiced on the negative side after leading them in that direction.Even what is accurate in the article has a contra, but that was ignored.

No one is saying that racing does not have problems which require corrective action but the current racing lords are in way too deep.Bring in some top executive talent, give them authority,the game could survive,it may not with the Clueless Clowns at the helm.


Mike
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: TGJB on March 26, 2012, 12:21:56 PM
Mike-- there is a move afoot roughly along the lines of your second sentence, without getting specific as to the \"who\".
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: TGJB on March 26, 2012, 01:50:55 PM
Mike-- and by the way, I agree that power has to be ripped from the cold, dead fingers of those that run the game.

Word I\'m getting is that the article has scared the crap out of major players in the industry (and in the breeding industry that depends on it), which is good, and long overdue. There should be some things happening late this week or early next, some were going to happen anyway, but this speeded them up, and created a lot more support for them.

A crisis is a terrible thing to waste...
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: richiebee on March 26, 2012, 03:03:40 PM
Just like to make the point that most if not all of the issues in the Drape article
have been discussed on this board, extensively and sometimes intelligently, for the
last 10 years or so...
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: miff on March 27, 2012, 07:37:44 AM
Didn\'t we predict this?

A congressional senator, ignoring many facts, on the stump for political capital.So,the sport of Thoroughbred racing has \"reached an alarming level of corruption and exploitation\" Was that just yesterday or exactly when, racing expert Senator Udall?

Maybe the good senator was mainly speaking of the quarter horse circuit at Ruidoso Downs in New Mexico, his home state. Fool ought to filter the facts before getting on the stump.Someone from THOROUGHBRED racing with a pair and some facts should tackle the good Senator.No one in the game will tell you that problems do not exist but \"alarming level of corruption and exploitation\"? Right now? Because the NY Times wrote an article so biased a blind man could see it?

Great point by Chuck Simon on Byk show that the award winning Joe Drape and co conveniently lumped in quarter horse racing with Thoroughbred to magnify the negativity factor but ignored Harness racing where this issue is not nearly as bad, i.e. breakdowns.

Bloodhorse:

Udall Says \'Corruption\' in Racing Alarming
By Tom LaMarra
Updated: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:05 AM

A member of Congress who in 2011 co-sponsored federal legislation that would regulate safety and integrity in horse racing has renewed his call in the wake of a March 25 report in the New York Times.

Democratic New Mexico Sen. Tom Udall, in a March 26 release, said the Times report, the first in an installment, paints a "very disturbing picture of the industry." Thus far, the Times package has focused on Quarter Horse racing, though it lumps Thoroughbred racing in with Quarter Horse racing.

Interestingly, it focused on New Mexico, the state Udall represents in Congress.

"The sport of horse racing which, at its best, showcases the majestic beauty of this animal and the athleticism of jockeys, has reached an alarming level of corruption and exploitation," Udall said. "The consequence of inconsistent state-level regulation is an epidemic of animal doping that has lead to countless euthanizations of helpless horses and the injury and death of their riders.

"The Times exposé has shined a glaring light on the need for national standards in a sport that reaps gambling profits but has lacked proper oversight for decades."

Major industry organizations were slow to respond to the Times report, though some industry participants have questioned its methodology in determining the scope of horse injuries and also speculated about its impetus. Industry leaders knew the package of stories was coming.

The National Thoroughbred Racing Association, which oversees the NTRA Safety and Integrity Alliance, issued a statement March 27.

\"Recent media reports have presented a sobering assessment of the safety and integrity of horse racing,\" NTRA president and chief executive officer Alex Waldrop said. \"The NTRA takes these reports very seriously because we know that thousands of industry participants consider the health and safety of our human and equine athletes and the integrity of our sport to be our highest priorities.

\"Over the past several years, the industry has instituted a number of significant safety and integrity reforms, including such initiatives as the Equine Injury Database, the NTRA Safety and Integrity Alliance, and the Thoroughbred Aftercare Alliance. Despite this progress, we must do more and move with a greater sense of urgency than has been demonstrated to date.

\"Toward that end, tracks, horsemen, regulators, and other participants must consider all options for enacting nationwide reform in a more comprehensive, lasting way.\"

Udall said the 2011 legislation also sponsored by Republican U.S. Rep. Ed Whitfield of Kentucky should be advanced in Congress. The bill would set standards for equine medication and penalties.

In keeping with a pattern, mainstream media reports about racing\'s problems and resulting calls for legislation traditionally come in the weeks leading up to the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (gr. I), Thoroughbred racing\'s most recognizable race. Last year\'s Interstate Horseracing Improvement Act was introduced May 4 during Derby week.

"The horse racing industry has promised voluntary reforms for decades, but as we've painfully observed, our legislation is the only viable way to address doping problems plaguing the sport."

Thoroughbred industry officials have contended progress has been made, particularly over the past four years. Anabolic steroids in racehorses have been effectively banned, and many states have adopted model rules for medication and penalties for violators.

The Jockey Club and other groups since last summer have been in the process of redoing model rules to better address uniformity in race-day medication use and penalties. The document will be unveiled soon.

The Jockey Club is using data, particularly in regard to drug violations and penalties, to track trends and in turn develop protocol. Data thus far shows that since 2005, 1,900 trainers have had a least one violation, but only 50-75 trainers have had 10 or more.

Jockey Club statistics show there have been 12,805 unique trainers that had at least one starter from Jan. 1, 2005-Dec. 31, 2011. Only 14% had any drug violations over a six-year period, and less than 1% averaged more than one medication violation per year.

The bill introduced last year by Udall and Whitfield was largely panned by the racing industry for being unworkable because it makes no differentiation between illegal medications and legal therapeutic substances used in horses for training and racing. There also were concerns Congress would end up opening up the Interstate Horseracing Act, which authorizes full-card simulcasts across state lines.

Late in the afternoon of March 26, American Association of Equine Practitioners president Dr. John Mitchell issued a statement on the Times article.

\"There should be no higher priority for the racing community than the health and safety of its equine and human athletes,\" Mitchell said. \"Reducing equine injuries must be the primary focus of all who care for the horse-- from racetrack management and regulators to the veterinarians and horsemen who work daily in the barns.

\"The racing community has a fundamental obligation to provide the best of care and oversight for our horses, and there are efforts to fulfill this mission. Examples of programs that have been recently developed for improved care of equine athletes include creation and refinement of the (Equine Injury Database), certification of tracks through the NTRA Safety and Integrity Alliance, the establishment of aftercare programs for retired racehorses, and the dedication of millions of research dollars to equine health and safety.

\"As the New York Times article points out, there is much work to be done. Nationwide adoption of best practices for pre-race inspection and post-race observation along with uniform medication, testing, security, and enforcement policies by all racing jurisdictions are essential safety and integrity elements for all to embrace. Commitment to these principles is critical to the very existence of the sport and most importantly, the safety of its horses and human athletes.\"

The issue was addressed during the March 26 edition of \"At the Races With Steve Byk\" on SIRIUSXM. Trainer Chuck Simon, who regularly comments during the program, said the issues need to be addressed but the way the story tackled them was questionable.

\"You can write anything you want to write about horse racing and not have to worry about someone coming back at you (to dispute it),\" Simon said. \"I\'m not defending the sport about not having issues. We can always make things better. But progress is always pooh-poohed. People in the industry come off as thinking anything that is done is never enough.\"

Simon suggested lumping Quarter Horse racing in with Thoroughbred racing \"confuses the issues,\" and he noted Standardbred racing, which rarely has breakdowns on the racetrack or in training, wasn\'t mentioned in the Times rep
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out-And so it begins...
Post by: girly on March 27, 2012, 03:17:57 PM
In an article on the newly agreed upon NYS BUDGET in Capital confidential at the Albany Times Union newspaper Posted on March 27, 2012 at 1:52 pm by Rick Karlin, Capitol bureau-a statement by the Governor\'s office


New York State Gaming Commission

Following the landmark agreement made earlier this month to begin the process of amending the state constitution to allow casino gaming in New York, the Budget enacts the Governor's proposal to create a New York State Gaming Commission, including the merger of the Division of Lottery and the Racing and Wagering Board. This reform reorganizes the state's gaming regulatory functions into a single oversight body. The new Commission would be comprised of seven members, five appointed by the Governor, and one apiece appointed by the Senate Majority Leader and the Assembly Speaker. The gaming industry constitutes a vital sector of New York's overall economy and contributes to economic development and job creation across the state. Under this agreement, the regulation of gaming will be conducted in the most efficient, transparent and effective manner possible, and eliminate unnecessary regulation redundancies. The new State Gaming Commission will help ensure that all gaming activity conducted in New York is of the highest integrity, credibility, and quality, and that the best interests of the public are served.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out-And so it begins...
Post by: Kasept on March 27, 2012, 03:40:34 PM
So what begins? The formation of an amalgamated NY Gaming Industry Commission was developed months ago.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: trackjohn on March 27, 2012, 03:46:34 PM
All involved in racing better hope that there aren\'t any breakdowns during the triple crown races...The negative publicity would increase exponentially and IMO result in \'knee-jerk\' legislation on a national level..Comments??

John
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sighthound on March 27, 2012, 07:36:03 PM
Well, they have to be diagnosed a bleeder now before they get lasix.  Here\'s that difference: don\'t forget that 30 years ago we didn\'t have flexible endoscopes, and the ability for everyone to own one so horses are literally scoped right back at the barn after they run.  So 30 years ago horses would only be diagnosed as bleeders if they snorted blood out of their lungs.  

My opinion:  Lasix is essential to help horses by protecting their lungs from damage that is often permanent.  That\'s why even in jurisdictions that don\'t allow lasix during a race, trainers use it to train at speed.  

Lasix doesn\'t make them run faster - in fact old research from years ago has shown it slows horses very very slightly -  and diluting the urine by inducing diuresis and depleting the blood volume (lasix dehydrates and makes horses pee out water, just like if you take it for a heart problem) - well, we are sophisticated enough today that the slight dilution factor doesn\'t mask anything by diluting down a drug present in the urine.

Of all the drugs to worry about, lasix isn\'t even on my list.  Not even close.  Again:  JMO

Edit:  in reply to a private question, yes, US trainers use lasix all the time in the morning, too, when they work horses at speed.  Sometimes you\'ll see a last minute canceled work: if the barn mgr goofs up and the horse doesn\'t get lasix (vet is delayed, not called etc.), most trainer will not risk working them and damaging their lungs via bleeding.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sighthound on March 27, 2012, 07:38:18 PM
QuoteMike-- and by the way, I agree that power has to be ripped from the cold, dead fingers of those that run the game.

This ^^^^    Well said.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out-And so it begins...
Post by: girly on March 28, 2012, 04:38:59 AM
There are a lot of changes coming down the pike with Cuomo\'s consolidations. We\'ll see what if anything happens with the NY racing industry over the next couple of years.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: Rich Curtis on March 28, 2012, 08:10:16 AM
\"Lasix doesn\'t make them run faster - in fact old research from years ago has shown it slows horses very very slightly\"

 If this doesn\'t get challenged pretty quick, I\'m going to lose my total play.

  Sighthound: Tell me, are you basing your conclusion on this old research?
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out-And so it begins...
Post by: miff on March 28, 2012, 08:15:41 AM
Girly,


Word heard is that Gov Coumo\'s proposed New York Gaming Commission will consist of 7 members, 5 appointed by Gov.Cuomo, one by Shledon Silver, the other by the top gun in the house.Commission is supposed to rule over any form of legal gambling in NY State, making it very powerful.They\'ll be lining up for those 7 spots.Hoping Ben Liebman,friend of racing, has a part in that process.

Would be terrible if the same old politically appointed stooge types get the positions.


Mike
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sighthound on March 28, 2012, 11:35:04 AM
I hear what you\'re saying, Rich.  Here\'s what you are referring to, I think:

Yes, there is very old research that shows lasix slightly - slightly - slows horses, estimated to be due to the side effects of dehydration.  

About 6-7 years ago, there was a study with 8 Thoroughbreds that showed horses improved their performance slightly, by increasing the duration of time (not speed) they could run.  They could run slightly longer, but not faster.

The study showed in increase in VO2max (oxygenation volume).  The study attributed the increased performance to the 20-30 pound water weight loss from dehydration, rather than improvement in decreasing EIPH.   You can read that abstract here:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17402434

There was another older study in the late 1990\'s that analyzed the actual racetrack performance at 6 furlong races of all TB\'s in the US and Canada for a period of time on dirt tracks.  74% of horses ran on lasix.

The horses on lasix performed better, won more money, finished in the placings more frequently.  

Here\'s a quote from the study that is directly to your concern: \"... horses receiving furosemide had an estimated 6-furlong race time that ranged from 0.56 +/- 0.04 seconds (least-squares mean +/- SE) to 1.09 +/- 0.07 seconds less than that for horses not receiving furosemide, a difference equivalent to 3 to 5.5 lengths.\"  

Again, the study could not conclude \"why\", but the improved results were measurable.

My opinion, and this is based also upon my personal experience and participation with multiple lasix research studies published in the 1990\'s that first established the actual measured cardiac and pulmonary pressure differences in TB\'s on and off lasix at speed:  Is lasix a \"hop\" that artificially increases speed and performance?  No.  Does it enable peak performance?  Yes.  

I know that may seem like parsing a semantic difference, but my view of lasix is that, if we are going to run horses professionally at the fast speeds on dirt, we have to protect their lungs from the associated damage if we can.

Let me know if you\'d like to read the studies mentioned, I can forward to you.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: TGJB on March 28, 2012, 11:57:33 AM
Sight-- I agree with your bottom line, and this also gets to the definition of \"performance enhancer\". Which last time I looked was not defined in the pending Federal legislation that many in the industry are now getting behind, in a state of near panic.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sighthound on March 28, 2012, 03:00:10 PM
Letting the feds in will be a disaster.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sighthound on March 28, 2012, 03:26:02 PM
QuoteHere\'s a quote from the study that is directly to your concern: \"... horses receiving furosemide had an estimated 6-furlong race time that ranged from 0.56 +/- 0.04 seconds (least-squares mean +/- SE) to 1.09 +/- 0.07 seconds less than that for horses not receiving furosemide, a difference equivalent to 3 to 5.5 lengths.\"  

TGJB:  What time/distance formula do you and Beyer use again?
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out-And so it begins...
Post by: girly on March 28, 2012, 03:30:54 PM
I agree-get some new blood in.... I share a lot of Richiebee\'s feelings right now-I am so over NY racing. Besides the skimmed take outs, catastrophic breakdowns, crooked training,a lot of small operations are leaving their horses to starve when they can\'t make it. I could tell you about some scenes I am aware of, but I don\'t want to put those thoughts in your head. It usually takes a good 24 mo. before substantial changes actually occur, and we don\'t know what they are going to focus on after the completed consolidation, but man, how much worse can it get? I am ever hopeful....
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: TGJB on March 28, 2012, 03:41:43 PM
At 6f, a second is about 6 1/4 lengths.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: sighthound on March 28, 2012, 03:53:18 PM
Thanks, just eyeballing the distances they calculated.
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: miff on March 28, 2012, 05:11:54 PM
\"At 6f, a second is about 6 1/4 lengths\"

JB,

Interesting,never heard of any calculation of raw time not being .17 hundreds equals one length at all distances.Are you speaking of the value of TG points vs raw? One second at 6f or any distance equals 5.88 lengths.

Mike
Title: Re: NY Times Hit Piece is out
Post by: Rich Curtis on March 29, 2012, 05:13:03 PM
Thank you, Sighthound.