RR goes for 20 in a row tonight R8 MNR Park Est. Post 9:55pm,
Horse of the Year honor on the line,JK.
Scratch the 1,3,4.
Tough call.
Was that field tougher than the last two Clement Hirsch fields that Z faced? :)
Funny thing is that Rapid Redux may get votes. I thought it was just Sekrah that was pushing for him. Apparently not.
Anyone that votes for RR needs to have their head examined. I know it\'s a bad field this year but come on.. Now that he broke the record, is the owner trying to do anything purposeful with this horse? The way he wins races out there it sure seems like he can run with better than starter allowances.
Lost Cause Wrote:
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> is the owner trying to do anything purposeful with this horse?
An excellent question, one that is no more or less valid than when asked of other owners who repeatedly
refused to take on tougher competition, in order to preserve a (mostly meaningless) win streak.
Seriously?? This owner is banking easy money based on a condition break for having run in a 5K tag. They have been less than even money in 15 of the 20 races. What is wrong with owners spotting their horse and making money?
How would you handle this horse differently? I wouldn\'t be surprised if tracks are contacting these connections,telling them they\'ll write a race for RR and I wouldn\'t be shocked if they were getting a small appearance fee or travel reimbursed.MNR certainly benefited from the RR appearance.
No doubt, this is a mostly meaningless streak but it\'s a good story for the sport and lord knows we need it.
The horse should get some credit for remaining mostly sound all year.
Twenty races in 11 months is a lot. 20 Wins is admirable.....
People knocking the management of this horse never received monthly horse bills. Racing is a business for most people, a hobby/luxury for the wealthy.If I were the owner, he\'d be beating up on the Little Sisters Of the Poor for as long as possible.
Mike
Rick B. Wrote:
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> Lost Cause Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > is the owner trying to do anything purposeful
> with this horse?
>
> An excellent question, one that is no more or less
> valid than when asked of other owners who
> repeatedly
> refused to take on tougher competition, in order
> to preserve a (mostly meaningless) win streak.
You mean like race in the Breeders\" Cup Classic 2 years in a row?? Or racing in open GR 1 races?? Still can\'t get over it, huh Rick??
You\'re right, they ran her in tough spots once a year.
Not getting into this one again.
Is that smart management though? Isnt it smart to run a great horse for 5 million as a \'fresh\' horse who wasnt grinding out a tiring campaign vs grade 1 males all year? I don\'t see anything wrong with the way she was managed.
Separate question, my comment was only about how \"tough\" her schedule was.
On Miff\'s point-- I used to have fights with Michael Dickinson about where to run Da Hoss on a related question. Michael wanted to be 3/5, and wanted to run in an allowance at Garden State (where he would be), with a 25k purse, instead of the Illinois Derby, where he would be second choice for 200k. That fight I won, and we got 40k for second (winning the other would have been 15k).
P-Dub Wrote:
> You mean like race in the Breeders\" Cup Classic 2
> years in a row?? Or racing in open GR 1 races??
> Still can\'t get over it, huh Rick??
I didn\'t mention a horse. Are you 100% certain that I didn\'t mean Pepper\'s Pride?
Yeow. Try decaf, pal...or at least, stop chewing the beans for a day or two.
Rick B. Wrote:
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> P-Dub Wrote:
>
> > You mean like race in the Breeders\" Cup Classic
> 2
> > years in a row?? Or racing in open GR 1 races??
> > Still can\'t get over it, huh Rick??
>
> I didn\'t mention a horse. Are you 100% certain
> that I didn\'t mean Pepper\'s Pride?
>
> Yeow. Try decaf, pal...or at least, stop chewing
> the beans for a day or two.
Dude, you\'re a real piece of work.
You\'re the one getting back on your soap box, yet again.
Then you want to give me the lame decaf line, followed by more lame banter.
Don\'t give me your bullshit, we know exactly what horse you were referring to.
You bring up that subject, one that was finally put to rest, then tell me I\'m the one that needs decaf. What a tool.
P-Dub,
Two words: Anger Management.
Pdub-- stop calling people names. Lots of people say lots of things,the fact that you feel it necessary to comment on every single post you have an opinion on, even if you have many times before, is your own problem, and is what heats things up.
P Dub,
I agree with everything you say about Zenyatta, clearly without argument one of the greatest champions in the history of horseracing.
It also is very clear that a taunting flag should have been thrown against Rick B but just let it go. Let the haters keep chirping.
Frank
Frank,
You are allowed your opinion, but it would certainly not be correct to say \"clearly without argument\". There are skeptics and not just complete outliers who doubt/hate everything.
She retired, we move on.
Frank Wrote:
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> It also is very clear that a taunting flag should
> have been thrown against Rick B but just let it go.
That\'s crap.
The question of \"Yeah...but who did she beat?\" is a permanent part of Zenyatta\'s lore, whether anyone likes it or not. I didn\'t invent it...and it is certainly not an insignificant nor \"hater\" type of question.
That Z\'s supporters always bristle at the mention of it speaks volumes.
Frank Wrote:
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> P Dub,
> I agree with everything you say about Zenyatta,
> clearly without argument one of the greatest
> champions in the history of horseracing.
> It also is very clear that a taunting flag should
> have been thrown against Rick B but just let it
> go. Let the haters keep chirping.
> Frank
Thanks Frank, I\'m done with it. It obviously still pains the guy, 12 months later. Maybe those posts from him help with the rehab.
Only people who don\'t really follow the sport will ask \'who she beat\'. If you follow the sport, you\'ll know she won the worlds premier horserace for older horses (apologizes to dubai) and almost won it again the following year while probably being unlucky to lose. If you want to make the argument that she only ran in \'two tough races\' that is an argument that can be entertained. If you want to say that its not her fault that \'nobody\' showed up to race her in the many grade 1 races she won, you can entertain that thought also.
I think that it probably comes down to this. The \'who she beat\' argument would have held much more water had she been \'exposed\' in the Classic. Many \'sharp\' bettors who threw her out on all their exotic tickets (because, she beat nothing) got schooled and sent out behind the woodshed. Those same bettors then got angry that she beat them and still werent able to admit they were wrong about her.
Its time to move on like one poster said in one of the above responses in this thread.
Zenyatta is an all time great and there\'s really nothing you can do about it. Its time to let it go.
Let\'s bring the two threads together---the real question is, could Zenyatta have beaten Rapid Redux? Two horse-of-the-year candidates with very similar campaigns where they rarely face anyone...that\'d be a battle.
Sorry, guess I\'m a \"hater\"...I love that expression, like I\'m hanging at the hip-hop message board except with a bunch of 50-year-old white guys saying it. It\'s real \"gangsta\".
Right, the thing to do is just agree with you and move on.
plasticman Wrote:
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> Only people who don\'t really follow the sport will
> ask \'who she beat\'.
So Everyone on this board who is not on the Z bandwagon does not follow this sport, including the guy who made the figs we\'re following and hosts the board you\'re writing?? Are u nuts?
>
> \"Zenyatta is an all time great and there\'s really
> nothing you can do about it. Its time to let it
> go.\"
I think it\'s mandatory for a horse termed \"all time great\" to at least beat one \"great\" horse.
Take a look at Personal Ensign running down a loose on the lead kentucky derby winner on a sloppy track and see if Z would have done that. That was an all time great...
I think Z was good but you guys can\'t make her more than she was at least not to me and the rest of us guys \"who don\'t really follow the sport\"
Plastic
The polarity on views of Zenyatta is not any \"lack of knowledge\" or \"not knowing the sport\". There are plenty of folks who know the sport well that think she was well managed and extremely consistent at a high level. (not \"all time great\".)
The polarity exists because the connections chose to take a path that allowed there to be doubt. Those that loved (and still love) her will always say she was great and one of the all time best. Those that don\'t believe that can point to the fact that she almost never left California and raced in the same races again and again.
Tough to \"prove\" it either way. Her figures weren\'t \"great\", which is how some measure it.
I am pretty sure that most of us have finalized our views on this and we aren\'t going to convince anybody in either camp to change camps. For me, as time passes, I respect Zenyatta more, but hate Shirreffs/Moss twice as much.
It is also a part of Ruffian\'s lore. That is the sad thing. That talent is questioned by \"who did so and so beat\". IMO, Zarkava had more talent in her tail than any 3 yr old filly I have seen, Rachel and Ruffian included. And Zarkava proved it against stronger opposition, imo. But, that is just my opinion, not empirical fact. She was a turf filly in Europe. Ruffian and Rachel were dirt fillies. Apples and oranges. Actually, I would put Dark Mirage and Genuine Risk ahead of Ruffian who I would put ahead of Rachel, but that is just my opinion also. You certainly cannot fault Zarkava\'s opposition in regards to either Ruffian\'s, Rachel\'s or Zenyatta\'s. I am a huge Zenyatta fan, but I am very tired of all the back and forth. I would have loved to see a more ambitious campaign. It didn\'t happen. She finished first in two BC races and second in a third. If that does not validate her talent to some, then it doesn\'t. She is retired. If some want to compare her to Rapid Redux or Pepper\'s Pride and intimate she is no better then they will (not saying anyone has done that here so please, no backlash). Moving on is good only because , as another said, all opinions of her have been formed and nothing will change anyone\'s opinions. But, Zarkava was amazing!!!! All hail Zarkava!!! ;)
Foot-- without commenting on where Ruffian stands historically, it\'s worth noting that she wasn\'t winning photos.
If their victory margins are worth comparing, are their Ragozin figures worth comparing too?
The above should produce a good one-liner from you, but Ruffian was a lot slower on Ragozin than most people would guess.
I was there.
My point (this one) is that all wins are not equal, figures and competition aside.
Fair enough.
I guess my points are that Zenyatta accomplished more than Ruffian, travelled more than Ruffian, faced better competition than Ruffian, and was 12 lengths faster than Ruffian on the Ragozin Sheets.
Given that one\'s career ended early three and the other\'s started after that, it\'s not exactly oranges to oranges. And I wasn\'t comparing them.
Ruffian did go to Jersey...
Jimbo I do not know what makes less sense; hating the connections or reasoning Z was not one of the all time greats! bbb
Bells,
If that is your logic, I can only wish I was your bookmaker.
It is crystal clear that if Z\'s connections had one testicle amongst them, nobody would be having this debate. She spent 2 full years in California. Raced in the same races again and again. They even refused to go to Saratoga to race in the Personal Ensign against Rachel, when Rachel was a fraction of what she was when she was at her best. I can hate them and I am sure I am not alone. Even Z\'s biggest supporters (folks like P-Dub) became very frustrated with her last campaign.
Rich Curtis Wrote:
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> Fair enough.
>
> I guess my points are that Zenyatta accomplished
> more than Ruffian, travelled more than Ruffian,
> faced better competition than Ruffian, and was 12
> lengths faster than Ruffian on the Ragozin Sheets.
I think we\'re venturing into lala land here. Are you suggesting Zenyatta beats Ruffian by 12 on their best days, say at 1 1/8.
Say what?
How did Ruffian get sucked into this debate? Some of us remember her....
jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bells,
>
> If that is your logic, I can only wish I was your
> bookmaker.
>
> It is crystal clear that if Z\'s connections had
> one testicle amongst them, nobody would be having
> this debate. She spent 2 full years in
> California. Raced in the same races again and
> again. They even refused to go to Saratoga to
> race in the Personal Ensign against Rachel, when
> Rachel was a fraction of what she was when she was
> at her best. I can hate them and I am sure I am
> not alone. Even Z\'s biggest supporters (folks
> like P-Dub) became very frustrated with her last
> campaign.
Jimbo,
Absolutely correct.
I hated her campaign. I still think that despite that, she is one of the greats. Strictly my opinion. I don\'t feel that performance figures determine which horses are great either.
Some of her biggest detractors, many on this forum, gave her respect after her final race. It was well deserved. I think that despising the connections, and putting her amongst the greats, can be mutually exclusive.
That crunching and groaning heard 'round the North American racing world this week was the sound of fans and media bending over backwards in an attempt to place the 20-race win streak of Rapid Redux into sensible context.
So let's get the qualified encomiums out of the way up front. Rapid Redux has found a stage upon which he can perform, race after race, at the pinnacle of his talents. Where those talents fit in the big picture is grist for debate – no one is suggesting he's playing La Scala, or Tanglewood, or even Off-Off Broadway – but certainly he deserves high praise for his extended success in a sport that offers far more ways to lose than win.
In his case, the chances for losing have been reduced by the level of competition he faces. He is clearly blessed with a sound and healthy constitution that must be the envy of horsemen everywhere. And in the true spirit of a pack leader, his success has helped pay for the ongoing upkeep of lesser horses owned by Robert Cole.
A dedicated skeptic might look at the pedigree of Rapid Redux and wonder why he hasn't achieved more, at least in terms of quality. As a son of Pleasantly Perfect he comes from a powerful sire line tracing in short order to Ribot, one of the breed's Big Daddies. The female family of Rapid Redux kicks off with mares by Storm Cat, Tom Rolfe (by Ribot), and Forli, and ends up wandering around in the same gene pool that gave us Northern Dancer, Halo, Tosmah, Cannonade and Stephan's Oddysey.
It's a tough game, though. Sometimes you can breed the best to the best and come up with nothing more than a headstrong saddle pony. Rapid Redux, for all the hopes and dreams his bloodlines might have encouraged, has been an over-achiever by most reasonable measures, eminently worthy of his locally heroic status. He can't help it if hungry bloggers trolling for comments and track publicists desperate for site hits have elevated his achievements beyond reason.
Blame it on the suggestive power of raw numbers, and the quick-twitch intellect of the human species that has been trained on smoke signals, telegrams, headlines, texts, and tweets. Detached from the reality they represent, numbers of scale – 20, 100, 1,000 – take on a self-justifying life of their own as in, "He must have done something good. He did it 20 times!"
No one has made a case that Rapid Redux could warm up Zenyatta, Cigar, Buckpasser, or any of the other win-streaky names in the history of the sport. But there they are anyway, popping up in the same paragraphs, conflating away as if the achievements somehow relate.
His justifiably proud trainer, David Wells, did not help matters much when he said, in the wake of RR's 20th straight last Monday at Charles Town, "We're still eyeing Citation's record."
I hope they enjoy the view.
The "record" to which Wells referred is the 19 wins of Citation in 1948, when he started 20 times. Rapid Redux, in the midst of his 20-race winning streak, has 18 of them in 2011.
Beyond the coincidence of the numbers involved, the only thing any records Citation and Rapid Redux would have in common is the fact that they were established in a counter-clockwise direction. Let's set aside for a moment the piddling string of bargain basement starter allowance races won by Rapid Redux – and bless those racing secretaries for magically making those races fill – and take a moment to unpack the career of Big Cy, who made his first start for Ben and Jimmy Jones on April 22, 1947.
Citation won his first five starts then finished second to Calumet stablemate Bewitch (a Hall of Famer in the making) in the 1947 Washington Park Futurity. Citation won his next seven starts and then lost the 1948 Chesapeake Trial in the mud at Havre de Grace to Saggy, who later sired Hall of Famer Carry Back. To date: 14 starts, 12 wins, 2 seconds. Not bad.
On April 17, 1948, five days after his loss in the Trial, Citation won the Chesapeake Stakes by 4 1/2 lengths and followed with 14 more victories that year. The streak included the Triple Crown, the American Derby, the Jersey Derby, the Jockey Club Gold Cup, and a walkover in the Pimlico Special. Among the major stakes winners Citation beat that year were Delegate, Vulcan's Forge, Phalanx, Better Self, Eternal Reward, First Flight and his Hall of Fame stablemates Coaltown and Armed.
After that, Citation needed a year off to deal with ankle and tendon issues. He did not lose again until Jan. 26, 1950, when he was beaten a neck by Miche in an overnight handicap at Santa Anita. The fact that Miche went on to win the Santa Anita Handicap two years later was of little consolation to most fans, who thought Citation's streak would go on forever. But those closest to him knew better, including the man who did the vet work for the California division of the Calumet stable, Dr. Jack Robbins.
"He was still very good, but he wasn't the horse he was as a 3-year-old," Robbins said this week from his home in Rancho Santa Fe. "He had a low bow, and Jimmy Jones managed him pretty well. Dealing with that bow, all he could do was keep him in ice packs and be careful how many times he ran."
Citation made 15 more appearances in 1950 and 1951, which included a memorable cluster of tough beats while giving weight to a future Hall of Famer, Noor. He retired with a victory 60 years ago in the Hollywood Gold Cup as the game's first millionaire, having won 32 races, finished second 10 times and third twice in 45 starts.
But then, those are just numbers.
Jay Hovdey DRF
Boscar Obarra wrote:
\"I think we\'re venturing into lala land here. Are you suggesting Zenyatta beats Ruffian by 12 on their best days, say at 1 1/8.\"
These are Ragozin\'s numbers. All I\'m doing is quoting them. I\'m using them for this because TG was not around when Ruffian raced. Ruffian had a Rags top of 5, and she was running 7s before the match race. The 12 lengths is based on taking their tops and placing them at 10F. Cutting it to 9F would shave the margin slightly. Oh, and the flag was planted in la-la land about 25 months ago.
Been away, just got a chance to catch up with this thread and got a good laugh at all the Z worshippers flapping in the wind about their paper champion.
Haha good stuff guys, keep it.
Funny that they are all getting worked up about Rapid Redux getting press for his winning streak and the non-racing fans who will mistakenly think RR is a great horse from setting the record. When infact, it is their horse with the endless fraudulant press clippings that has fooled the casual fan.
Zenyatta is, and always will be, the most overrated, overhyped horse in the history of the game. That\'s a fact that will never change (unless another kid-glove protected, luckbox animal captures the public\'s imagination).
The biggest knock from Z\'s detractors is that Z \'beat nothing\' in most of her races. I don\'t hear that same knock against Ruffian. In fact, Ruffian is considered \'racing royalty\' by many of the same people who don\'t consider Zenyatta racing royalty. If you are one of the people who consider Ruffian \'racing royalty\' and don\'t hold Z in the same regard, i\'d love to hear your stance on this.
Thanks.
sekrah Wrote:
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> Been away, just got a chance to catch up with this
> thread and got a good laugh at all the Z
> worshippers flapping in the wind about their paper
> champion.
>
> Haha good stuff guys, keep it.
>
> Funny that they are all getting worked up about
> Rapid Redux getting press for his winning streak
> and the non-racing fans who will mistakenly think
> RR is a great horse from setting the record. When
> infact, it is their horse with the endless
> fraudulant press clippings that has fooled the
> casual fan.
>
> Zenyatta is, and always will be, the most
> overrated, overhyped horse in the history of the
> game. That\'s a fact that will never change
> (unless another kid-glove protected, luckbox
> animal captures the public\'s imagination).
We appreciate you giving your opinion. Please refrain from using the word \"fact\" when giving your opinion.
Its funny how you say others get worked up, when post after post on this subject from Sekrah displays a fan feverishly pecking at his keyboard, who just can\'t fathom why others don\'t see it his way.
\"Haha good stuff, keep it up\"??
Thats what a lot of people say about you. Thanks for the laugh today.
And for those of you, including JB, who love to say that I have to chime in whenever someone disagrees with me?? I think Slick Rick specifically mentioned Z and Mike Smith.
At least I\'m doing so in support of someone or something, appreciating their accomplishments. (Like that awful Mike Smith, anybody know how many BC races that guy has won in his career??
Unlike guys like this, and others, who bemoan the accomplishments of horses and jockeys. Then in the next breath, complain about racing\'s downfall and the ongoing downward spiral of the sport.
Must be a wonderful existence, being bitter of another\'s accomplishments.
So Rick, Sekrah and others....keep up the good fight. JB has your back. I\'m sure I\'ll get admonished yet again for chiming in every time someone disagrees with me,
What accomplishments to be bitter about? I might be bitter about the hype this phoney horse has received, but that\'s only because I support other, much greater horses who many new casual fans have no idea about (Such as Skip Away).
I do not apologize for supporting true greatness while outing phoney, media created pretenders like Zenyatta.
P-Dub Wrote:
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> Must be a wonderful existence, being bitter of
> another\'s accomplishments.
I\'m *suspicious* of many of Zenyatta\'s Grade-I-in-name-only conquests. Bitter? Your word, and your affliction.
> So Rick, Sekrah and others....keep up the good
> fight. JB has your back. I\'m sure I\'ll get
> admonished yet again for chiming in every time
> someone disagrees with me,
IMO, you get admonished because you have a habit of being disrespectful of anyone that doesn\'t agree with you. You can disagree with someone without making it into a personal attack.
That said, it\'s no major sin to laugh off my opinions -- I\'m merely a handicapper, a bettor, a racing fan...but saying that \"JB has my back\" -- as if he would just back up any lame-assed opinion I might suggest? That\'s pretty damned condescending.
The man feeds his family by advising his clients on the purchase of some pretty expensive horseflesh -- with impressive results. What do YOU do in this industry that I or anyone else should favor your opinions about the relative \"greatness\" of any horse over his?
Sekrah
What is \"phoney\" about winning 19 of 20, a pair of breeders cup races and millions of dollars?
By the way Skipaway lost twenty races! bbb
Rick B. Wrote:
> What do YOU do in this industry that I or anyone else should
> favor your opinions about the relative \"greatness\"
> of any horse over his?
You don\'t have to favor my opinion.
And if \"doing things in the industry\" is a prerequisite for commenting on a forum, then you and 99% of the people here shouldn\'t offer any comments.
What is it, a reflex?
TGJB Wrote:
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> What is it, a reflex?
No smartass, it isn\'t.
Of course, all the others that comment on comments don\'t get the JB scrutiny.
You let Sekrah drone on, stating \"facts\" that are merely opinion...and you don\'t say a damn word about that.
Rick B just finished making another ridiculous comment, but of course thats ok too.
So you ask \"what is it\"??
Its a guy that selectively chooses to admonish, while letting those that bring you an apple run off with whatever strikes them.
So to answer your question.....that is what is \"it\".
I tell you what. Just for the fun of it, why don\'t you count Rick\'s posts on this thread, Sekrah\'s posts, and yours. And that doesn\'t count one or two I deleted.
Rick has plenty, I have a couple more. He\'s done plenty of commenting on this thread. And you deleted some of his too.
Sekrah admitted he was out of town, and when he came back he jumped right back in.
There are plenty of threads on your board that have people going back and forth. My point is you single me out, while letting others make multiple comments.
Everyone has an opinion, but when some guy comes on here and states that his opinion is fact I take issue with that.
Show me a post where I state that my opinion is a fact. I may have a strong opinion, but I don\'t pull a Sekrah and state that my opinion is fact.
Thats what I objected to JB. Sekrah is free to state whatever opinion he desires. He hates Zenyatta and the connections. We get it. Paper champion and all that.
Trying to tell the rest of us it\'s a fact?? Well JB, sorry if I disagree with that. I guess when Sekrah states his opinion,, we should all just accept it as fact.
Because by gosh, Sekrah said so.
You can stop the counter, I\'m done with it.
WOW.
Overhyped and overrated?
Who exactly is \'overrating\' her?
Most things i\'ve read about Zenyatta are negative, very few people have anything nice to say about her...i\'m not sure how all the bashing she\'s gotten equates to her being overrated. In order to be overrated, Don\'t you have to actually be able to find someone who thinks she\'s good?
Hahaha. Robert Cole and David Wells. I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I\'m sending you both Christmas cards!
Yeah, that\'s it, very few people have had anything nice to say about her. I suppose if this site is your only source of information that wouldn\'t be as ridiculous, but even here it\'s about 50/50.
That mare got HOTY without winning a single important race in 2010, the only time she faced top horses she got beat. That\'s true no matter how good you think she was or what excuse you want to give her for the loss. Whatever justification you come up with for that vote it\'s ultimately based on a LOT of people saying she was good and disregarding the record on the track in 2011. (And to be clear, it would be more silliness to give your version of the justification here now, it\'s not the point).
For hopefully the last time-- ability and accomplishment are two different things. Those of us who think she is overrated are looking at what we consider to be the disparity between the two things. One can think she was a very good, possibly even great racemare, and still think she is overrated.