another disgrace
I don\'t think so. I think they did the right thing.
Shan, did you listen to the explanation Trevor gave?
I thought it made sense. Once TC knocks Game On Dude\'s ass out, it\'s rodeo time. TC started the chain reaction.
Full disclosure - didn\'t have a wager on Twirling Candy, Game on Dude, or Setsuko
Twirling Candy is no victim here since he initiated contact first with Setsuko which resulted in a chain-reaction where Twirling Candy engaged in further contact with Game on Dude, who was coming out while he was coming in - Great NO-CALL!!
Twirling Candy was the only horse that should have been disqualified.
sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Twirling Candy was the only horse that should have
> been disqualified.
I agree with that also. Twirling Candy was the initiator..
I had Game On Dude. When I first watched the race live, I thought I was in trouble. Once I started watching the replays, I started speaking to the computer screen, without knowing who the horse (Twirling Candy) was: \"He bumped the outside horse 1st and started everything. I better stay up.\"
Now obviously I\'m very biased here, but I thought the stewards made the perfect call.
First, Sekrah, amazing call.
Second, there is so much justice in this world. This makes up for the Sky Beauty DQ at Saratoga when I was 7 and bet everything I had on a cold exacta before they took her down. My god, considering this exacta only paid a shade over 500, this board saved me from filling out any paperwork on my tidy little score.
I did have skin in the game, with money on Game on Dude, but it really did look like Twirling Candy came in a bit and brushed Game on Dude. The thing is that GAme on Dude came out hard and sharp twice after the initial brushing, with a much more pronounced veering. For that reason, I thought Game on Dude would come down. That and of course a 15 minute inquiry certainly added to the suspense.
Inquiry aside, how many times is Chantal Sutherland gonna get passed in the stretch by Victor Espinoza and then \"knuckle down\" and get back up at the wire?
no, did not hear the explanation, only heard baffert say it was because \"TC had no horse left, so they let it stand\"...say what?
I must say most all who posted thought it should stand. Here in LRD it seemed that the winner knocked TC sideways twice...my record is intact for DQs on horses I bet...they never win.
CentaurMythX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, Sekrah, amazing call.
> Second, there is so much justice in this world.
> This makes up for the Sky Beauty DQ at Saratoga
> when I was 7 and bet everything I had on a cold
> exacta before they took her down. My god,
> considering this exacta only paid a shade over
> 500, this board saved me from filling out any
> paperwork on my tidy little score.
Good to know that there is still some young blood in this game.
Can someone explain it to me because I was watching on my laptop and couldn\'t tell who the inside horse was that bumped hard into the middle horse, who then hit Setsuko? I also had bet Setsuko hard, so this was a tough one for me. Which horse was the inside horse, and which horse was the middle horse? Watching it live, I thought the inside horse was the eventual winner and should be taken down, but now I am not sure. I just didn\'t have enough screen resolution to see very well since it wasn\'t on TV where I am.
Game on Dude was on the inside , Twirling Candy in the middle, and Setsuko on the outside.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21eK7XUb5bU
Why they didn\'t show the bumping from a rear shot, I don\'t know.On the head on, it was tough to determine if TC or the winners rear-end caused the INITIAL contact which triggered the whole incident.Setsuko had every chance to get by the winner(who got hit hard by TC), so from that standpoint the result was just.
Chantal weak compared to the guys or it\'s not even close, would take P.VAL and the extra weight all day.
Mike
Mike: The entire race replay together with the inquiry is available in the race replays section of www.Calracing.com (free registration). There are some replays shown there from the rear -- go to about 8 minutes in.
Caradoc,
Thanks, was the rear shot conclusive that TW\'s rear end set off the chain of bumping. Still thought they would shown it, but HRTV feed only showed the hed on.
Mike
HRTV just interviewed Chantal and very clearly showed the right call was made.
you are correct. The alowed winner was the inside horse.
number5858 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can someone explain it to me because I was
> watching on my laptop and couldn\'t tell who the
> inside horse was that bumped hard into the middle
> horse, who then hit Setsuko? I also had bet
> Setsuko hard, so this was a tough one for me.
> Which horse was the inside horse, and which horse
> was the middle horse? Watching it live, I thought
> the inside horse was the eventual winner and
> should be taken down, but now I am not sure. I
> just didn\'t have enough screen resolution to see
> very well since it wasn\'t on TV where I am.
Gary STevens is making a big play that is was the right call...so fine, I\'m over it...but why in the hell was Baffert allowed to go talk to the stewards? Or even the damn jocks for that matter (much less 4 times!).
Analogy - holding in football. Ref asks the player? not likely...
>>.but why in the hell was Baffert allowed to go talk to the stewards? Or even the >>damn jocks for that matter (much less 4 times!).
Baffert said he did not talk to the stewards yesterday when they interviewed him in the winners circle.
They have to talk to the jocks.
I hope that in all of this it\'s noticed that Twirling Candy tired (and nearly took down two other horses) and won\'t want the distance in the future ....
TC was strangled the first half mile and that surely added to his tiring. Let him roll and he may go the distance.
The jock rated him as he probably didn\'t want to crash and burn. The horse broke a tad slow, but then ran up with his head up in the air fighting restraint all down the front side, trying to run up on heels, still wouldn\'t settle well under cover, so was taken wide down the backstretch heading into the turn. He had his head from just before the middle of the turn, moving up freely along the outside, had all the bumping while awkwardly trying to change his lead at the top of the stretch, and said \"enough\".
Horse has to learn to rate, unless they are going to let him be a clear on-the-lead type. And the lead change was awkward. Sometimes all that\'s just \"young horse\" stuff that improves markedly w/experience - he\'s still just a baby - sometimes that\'s due to tiring. Usually horses that are not tired will go on, however. He may be a horse uncomfortable within a crowd. He\'s ducked out before. I\'d have to watch his works and replays.
We\'ll see next race! They change alot in spring. Your assessment is certainly valid, and that\'s what makes parimutual racing .
FWIW, DRF\'s Hovdey agrees with you. Puts the blame squarely on the jockey.
Hovdey on Big Cap (http://www.drf.com/blogs/full-metal-handicap)
well, it certainly won\'t change the outcome, but Mandella is quoted in an article today calling Baffert\'s conduct in talking to the stewards \"chickenshit\", so he said something to to somebody...
\"I didnt say she wasnt a good rider\"
Silver,
Agree, watch her every day.Also correctly stated, she\'s not even close to a \"go to\" type rider. Average at best,weak the last eighth, can win when best. Great looks and personality getting her lots of nice calls in Canada and she does very well there.As far as getting 30% more on price, you get 40% less jock than Rosario/Bejarano right now.Rosario riding in a zone, god like this meet at SA,Bejarano not far behind,both getting the best horses to ride most of the time.
On the non DQ call, a steward was on HRTV and said the vote was 2-1 to leave the result stand.It seems like the correct call. Disagree with Hovey that Chantal\'s left handed whip started it all,looks like TC was all done and brushed Game On Dude to start it all.
Mike
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Agree, watch her every day
> Average at best, weak the last eighth...
Huh? Are you *sure* you watch her every day? Quite the contrary: she\'s one of the best finishers in the game, when she has horse.
(This \"weak late\" sentiment is something I\'ve heard repeatedly about female riders over the years, and I find it to be more stereotype than fact.)
Don\'t listen to me, though. Let\'s hear it from someone who actually knows a thing or two about race riding.
Retired U.S. Racing Hall of Fame jockey Gary Stevens said: \"She has become the queen of the longshots. She has won several photos against top jockeys, which shows she is a strong finisher.\"
And after all crap that went on in the Big Cap yesterday, Chantal found a way to get one more push out of Game On Dude, right at the wire when it counted most. Hardly what I would call \"weak the last eighth\".
Rick,
Hardly would expect for Gary Stevens to say anything negative about any jockey or horse. Don\'t care how many lonshots shes wins with,a 4% jockey in Cali.Have seen her blow the turn on several occasions in Cali and Canada as her physical strength is not in the same area code.She\'s not even close to being a top jockey but the most beautiful by a pole.
Wanna see a top jockey (female) check out Rosie Napravnick or old films of Julie Krone.
Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anKQHZLf1GA
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hardly would expect for Gary Stevens to say
> anything negative about any jockey or horse.
Stevens isn\'t obligated to say *anything* about any jockey or horse, and he speaks from actual experience -- you don\'t. (Unless you are also a former jockey.)
> Don\'t care how many lonshots shes wins with, a 4% jockey in Cali.
Bad form to play games with numbers when sample sizes are small. She only has 34 starts at the meet...and with yesterday\'s win, she\'s now at 9%. Is that better?
>Have seen her blow the turn on several occasions in Cali and Canada
I\'ve seen just about *every* jock do this. As Jay Hovdey just wrote in his column on the Big Cap, \"centrifugal force is a bitch\".
> Wanna see a top jockey (female) check out Rosie
> Napravnick or old films of Julie Krone.
I\'m well aware of the abilities of both of these fine riders, and I\'m sure you remember that it took Krone awhile to gain the trust of what is arguably the most sexist trainer colony in the U.S.
Rosie N. would likely be begging for horses out there, too.
Nah, Mike, I think you\'re working off of old knowledge. Pay closer attention to her rides in the next few weeks, and we can revisit this topic. If I\'m wrong, believe me, I\'ll say so long before you call me out.
\"Nah, Mike, I think you\'re working off of old knowledge\"
Rick,
Think you are confusing Chantal with some other female jockey. Shes riding 11 years, tried NY circuit(tutored personally by Angel Cordero while in NY) with little success, then tried CALI with the same result.Top 10 rider in Canada on more than one occasion but this isn\'t CANADA.
The sexist thing is kinda played out. I think that many owners/trainers would use a very talented female jockey without hesitation.Julie Krone broke that barrier years ago imo, just has not been many really talented female jocks coming down the pike.
Not even close on Rosie N who just may be heading to Cali(or NY/NJ) and could be be top 10 in Cali with good agenting.
Never call you out on anything Rick, I think she\'s very average, you think otherwise.Good Luck!
Mike
That\'s a great video to watch: look how quiet those jocks are sitting the horses in the final sixteenth. There\'s no flailing with the whips, no pumping with the shoulders and arms. The horses are tired, the horses are fighting it out, and the jocks are trying to just sit there quiet, being as light as they can, not interfering, not throwing off the balance, and letting the horses do all they can.
Great video!
The trouble started BEFORE the bumping when Chantal whipped Game on Dude left handed, just as Hovedy said. He pushed into Twirling Candy\'s path and then Twirling Candy moved out and bumped Setsuko. Sometimes it is not the bumping that should cause a DQ but what caused the bumping in the first place. Game on Dude was the initiator and the reason Twirling Candy veered in the first place. That is why Dominguez and Mandella was so mad. Plus now Setsuko is hurt again. But it id over now and in the books, so that\'s the way it will be recorded.
Sight,
Nothing more advantageous than having a cerebral and physical rider
on board. I perceive Pat Day as giving the credit to the horse and no
shit riders try hard . Point is: Cordero on Slew o\'Gold and Freakin Greatest jockey ever (voted by his peers) on Gate Dancer were as Day put
it \"refused\" .
mjs
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rick,
>
> Don\'t care how many lonshots [Chantal Sutherland] wins
> with,a 4% jockey in Cali.Have seen her blow the turn
> on several occasions in Cali and Canada as her physical
> strength is not in the same area code.She\'s not
> even close to being a top jockey but the most
> beautiful by a pole.
>
> Wanna see a top jockey (female) check out Rosie
> Napravnick
>
> Mike
Miff,
Some food for thought, from recently complete race meetings:
Rosie @ Keeneland: 66 starts, 2 wins, 3% winners, $315,381 in earnings, $4779 earnings per start.
Chantal @ Santa Anita: 147 starts, 16 wins, 11% winners, $1,130,032, $7687 earnings per start.
What does this prove? It *might* mean that you have too high of an opinion of Rosie, and you\'re being too harsh about Chantal\'s riding capabilities.
I find it extremely interesting that Rosie got over 20 mounts per week at Keeneland, while Chantal averaged about 9 per week...so let\'s not have any excuses about how \"tough\" Keeneland is -- Rosie had plenty of chances, every day, while Chantal had to try to not fall asleep waiting for her 2 mounts each day.
We can split hairs about the above comparison all day, but two things came out of it that I believe are beyond refute:
* Chantal Sutherland is NOT a \"4% rider\", as you so breezily dismissed her.
* Rosie N. may very well be a better jock than Chantal one day -- maybe even as good as Julie Krone in the future -- but she got her ass handed to her at Keeneland; clearly, too much, too soon.
Rick,
If you knew what you were talking about, we could have a nice dialogue. Comparing the jockey colony at Keeneland and Cali is absurd.Chantal would not get a mount at the Kee meet much less be a factor, Rosie riding mainly longshots(pssst check)
Rick, if you believe that Chantal and Rosie are of equal overall ability, I\'m thrilled you gamble in the same pools as I do.
Mike
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rick,
>
> If you knew what you were talking about, we could
> have a nice dialogue.
Nah, I doubt it, Mike. I was warned about you. The only folks you have a \"nice dialogue\" with are those that agree with you 100%. I\'ve watched you argue with some of the experts here, even TGJB -- stridently, not at all in a \"nice\" fashion -- and you are always right.
> Comparing the jockey colony at Keeneland and Cali
> is absurd.Chantal would not get a mount at the Kee
> meet much less be a factor, Rosie riding mainly
> longshots(pssst check)
1. Chantal, and most any other jock, would get mounts at Keeneland if she had Rosie\'s agent. You know this. Agents make or break jocks, at least in terms of opportunity.
2. I checked Rosie\'s numbers -- did you?
In her last 16 mounts at Keeneland, she was less than 5-1 exactly half the time. She won with NONE of them.
So your assertion that she was riding \"mainly longshots\" is wrong. She simply didn\'t get much done there. Your apologism for her is valiant, but misplaced.
(Also, it should be noted that the same feeding frenzy that caused everything she rode at Fairgrounds to get overbet starting working against her at Keeneland when the betting public saw that she was slumping -- maybe if she would have won an occasional race, someone would have bet her subsequent mounts.)
> Rick, if you believe that Chantal and Rosie are of
> equal overall ability, I\'m thrilled you gamble in
> the same pools as I do.
Mike, if you put THAT much emphasis on the jockey instead of the horse, you are probably losing money. All things considered, Chantal and Rosie are good jockeys that are doing quite well, with bright futures and far, far less separating them than you assert here. Don\'t let your jockey dogma run over your betting karma.
Rick, Duh!!
Twenty-three-year-old sensation Rosie Napravnik concluded the 139th Thoroughbred Racing Season at Fair Grounds Race Course & Slots as the meet's leading jockey with 110 wins, becoming the first woman to clinch a riding title at the New Orleans oval.
Rick,
Of course they are equal,okie dokie.
psst, you are delusional if you believe anyone on this site is an \"expert\", there is no such thing unless you drink lots of Kool Aid!
Mike
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> psst, you are delusional if you believe anyone on
> this site is an \"expert\", there is no such thing
> unless you drink lots of Kool Aid!
>
>
> Mike
So, not even Jerry Brown -- founder, owner of Thoro-Graph -- is of expert status here?
Wow.
Hey, Mike -- that thing I wrote in an earlier post about you always being right? That was sarcasm.
Rick,
Just don\'t know any experts in ANY phase of the game, after 40 years, maybe you do.
Good luck!
Mike