no posts, I guess no one really cares anymore, or we\'re just tired of racing boards ignoring it... How does this guy live with himself? the recent posts on it were largely ignored - I\'m guessing \"same old, same old\"...and he laughs in the face of our sport.
I agree. Just seems nothing will ever be done about it. It aggrevates me everytime he has a winner. Will never bet a horse of his, just on principle.
What are you trying to say Dutrow did with this horse today? The horse won his only race by 6 in racehorse time with the 2nd place horse graduating next out, was eligible to be any kind, had good works and might be the top 3yo sprinter. It\'s not like he was slow & had this huge jump up at huge odds. If another trainer had raced Flashpoint those 1st 2 races with the same result, would this thread even exist? Please explain what evidence there is that Dutrow has done anything wrong with Flashpoint.
For the record, I did not have Flashpoint, but after the race I could see how that race was possible, regardless of who his trainer is. I don\'t usually go around defending trainers with Dutrow\'s history, but I feel using Flashpoint\'s win today to attack his trainer is unwarranted.
Any horse in his barn is tainted by his rep now, no matter how talented they may be and no matter whether they are clean or not. It just casts doubt. I refuse to bet a horse that comes from his barn. I hope the horse is legit. But, if he is I hope they find another trainer. If suddenly there is an off race, then there is going to be a bigger outcry. Why suddenly did this horse go into a tailspin. If you support him then you do. I won\'t. And that goes for any other trainer that has as many violations as he has. We need to go back to a no raceday meds policy. But continuing to support and allow violators is not the way to do it. Just my opinion, take it or leave it. This is something I won\'t skirt around.
Personally, I\'ve been keeping my fingers crossed that the same old approach to dealing these guys who have excessive of medication violations in their background isn\'t going to be the currently used model .
It\'s difficult to imagine imo that any track ,jurisdiction or circuit would want any part of the worst medication rules offenders in the game - but seem reluctant to do more than presently are . ..
Although the way i see it , circuits like Penn National have got to be keeping hope alive with the recent serious upgrades to their medication policies at the track - so maybe anything is possible in 2011 .
I guess the question has to be: Where do you draw the line when it comes to your boycott? Steve Asmussen has a record similar to Rick Dutrow\'s. About the only difference is that Asmussen didn\'t get suspended for smoking dope on the track\'s grounds. Do you eschew all races where Asmussen saddles a horse? What about Patrick Valenzuela? He\'s been banned for personal drug use a lot more than Dutrow. Do you avoid all races with Rudy Rodriguez, a disciple of Dutrow, even though he\'s never had a positive drug test?
The bottom line is this game is tough enough that if you start boycotting betting trainers and jockeys on moral grounds, you\'re going to have to avoid a lot of good betting opportunities. Worse, if you\'re betting against Dutrow\'s horses by taking horses with lesser credentials, you\'re going to take a beating at the windows. How do you know that the trainer with a lower profile than Dutrow that you just bet fits your standards of morality?
Now if you\'re an owner, you can hire trainers and jockeys that meet your standards, but as a bettor, it\'s not my task to start boycotting this or that trainer, because it does me no good to lose money due to how I feel about the guy personally.
If you can still survive in this game boycotting some of the most successful trainers on moral grounds, more power to you. Most of us can\'t.
toppled Wrote:
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> What are you trying to say Dutrow did with this
> horse today? The horse won his only race by 6 in
> racehorse time with the 2nd place horse graduating
> next out, was eligible to be any kind, had good
> works and might be the top 3yo sprinter. It\'s not
> like he was slow & had this huge jump up at huge
> odds. If another trainer had raced Flashpoint
> those 1st 2 races with the same result, would this
> thread even exist? Please explain what evidence
> there is that Dutrow has done anything wrong with
> Flashpoint.
> For the record, I did not have Flashpoint, but
> after the race I could see how that race was
> possible, regardless of who his trainer is. I
> don\'t usually go around defending trainers with
> Dutrow\'s history, but I feel using Flashpoint\'s
> win today to attack his trainer is unwarranted.
Well, we\'ll see. There are 87 reasons on the recored as to why bettors feel disgusted when he wins a race (while on suspension). I just wish that GP/Florida would honor NY suspensions and not let him race till he pays a penalty...but they never really have to pay, do they? He must be one helluva salesman to get these horses.
shanahan Wrote:
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> He must be one helluva salesman to get these horses.
It\'s way more than salesmanship. Dutrow gets results -- if you\'ll excuse the obvious pun.
Seriously: in a game where most owners lose their ass, how hard is it to understand the attraction to a guy who actually WINS, and frequently? Are any of his owners complaining about his list of violations? (I doubt it.)
I\'ve never owned a horse, but I have to be honest and say that I could only put up with the 5% and 10% trainers for so long if I\'m not at least breaking even.
Who would you guys have training for you -- Gary Sciacca? Let me know how that works out for you.
As far as I know Valenzuela never drugged a horse. I am talking about what trainers do to animals, not themselves. I don\'t place a bet on any of the trainers you have mentioned. I don\'t make my living by betting on races and so I don\'t have to bet a horse who is trained by a questionable trainer. I love the sport, and trainers need to do what is best for the horse. We need the same drug rules that are in place in Europe. But as long as trainers such as Mr Dutrow are allowed to rack up violation after violation then our sport is tarnished. I can\'t say anything about Rodriguez because he hasn\'t had a violation. He is not in the same category as Mr Dutrow. The fact that he is connected to him will throw suspicion on him, like it or not. But if there is enough to suspect something other than great training is going on, then eventually it will come out. As far as Mr Valenzuela, he has been a repeat offender who has tried to overcome personal demons. That is difficult, and he keeps trying, but he is an addict and an addict can always relapse. I don\'t care about Mr Dutrow\'s or Mr Asmussen\'s personal drug habits, but I can\'t imagine that their violations are because they are addicted to give horses banned substances.
87 reasons or not he gets horses because he gets enough results that owners will take the chance.
should have read this first! My point exactly
The difference is that most of the 10% guys have a monthly vet bill 95% less than the 20% guys. What gets older than a 5-10% trainer is an 18% trainer that gives you a $2000-$3000 monthly vet bill even for a $5k claiming animal. Unless your horse is higher class, those training bills are harder to make up than the winning-purse percentage. Remember these small trainers kind of have to work with what stock they have until the bitter end. The super trainers get rid of the really slow horses in a hurry. That helps their record as does the big trainers authority to drop horses below their true class level. The smaller trainers usually have carrot feeding bleeding heart breeder-owners who insist their nickel bred stock don\'t get risked in claiming races until these owners learn their lessons the hard way. So there\'s a lot of reasons that go into winning percentage. But I think the golden rule is a super trainer can\'t turn a slow horse into a superstar. They purge the slow ones from their barn\'s everyday and these horses end up in the 5% trainers barn. The big guys can often make them run more comfortably after tapping and injecting everything they can think of for a couple thousand dollars. We should have a trading places week where Dutrow and the other big boys switch complete stock and vet routines with the small guys for a week. I\'m sure they wouldn\'t do much better than 5-10% total either either.
Good point martoon.
martoon Wrote:
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> What gets older than a 5-10% trainer is an 18% trainer
> that gives you a $2000-$3000 monthly vet bill even
> for a $5k claiming animal.
A $2K vet bill for a nickel nag? Seriously doubt this happens much.
I get the point you are trying to make, but if I owned horses I\'d only care about what I netted each month, not what it cost to get there. A trainer that didn\'t win for me last month means I have to go into my pocket for the vet bill, whether it\'s $200 or $2000. I wouldn\'t be happy about either number.
Thanks, but I\'ll take Dutrow or another winning trainer every day.
Rick.. You better believe you can get a $2000 vet bill for a nickel claimer. Problem is you often don\'t know they a nickel until you pay that out for a lot of months too. That\'s one of the oldest and most true axioms of this game is that \"it costs just as much to train a bad horse as it does a good horse\". Trainers generally feed, train, and vet all their horses the same. there really isn\'t an a ala carte menu. And they don\'t care because you are paying the bills. These big guys just the pre-race vet work is hundreds and hundreds of dollars. A lot of trainers put every horse in their barn on the daily joint stuff like Legend and Adequan systematically and that is expensive. Then they all go on the daily anti- ulcer stuff which is very expensive. Just those two right there you\'re near or over $1000 and the vet hasn\'t even shown up yet. Some trainers do pre-race type stuff for every breeze as well...
I\'m not trying to tell you every trainer is the same. Of course some of the top names are better than the others and they can spot a good claim and improve it. And they are not claiming every slow rat in a 5% trainer\'s barn. They are not miracle workers. They cover all their bases with very expensive medical preventative maintenance, regular joint tapping, etc.. But the big guys always win the medicine and vet wars. And they like everyone else win 80% of their races and money with 20% of their stock. If you own a horse that\'s not that talented, I think you are better off with an honest knowledgeable trainer that is $50 a day and no or low vet bills. You might get lucky and break even if you win a couple, because on most circuits you are not going to make the $50,000 or $60,000 with that horse you\'ll need to break even with the expensive guys.
martoon Wrote:
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> Rick.. You better believe you can get a $2000 vet
> bill for a nickel claimer. Problem is you often
> don\'t know they a nickel until you pay that out
> for a lot of months too.
Well, I can\'t help an owner that leaves his legs open, then gets denutted.
Spending $2K in vet work on a nickel claimer is like putting leather seats in an \'85 Corolla, to my way of thinking...and if a trainer did that with one of my horses without authorization, he\'d have to eat the bill himself.
If owners are willing to put up with that bullshit, there will always be a long line of trainers waiting to fleece them.
And I still think I\'d do better with a winning trainer.
Rick B. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> martoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Rick.. You better believe you can get a $2000
> vet
> > bill for a nickel claimer. Problem is you
> often
> > don\'t know they a nickel until you pay that out
> > for a lot of months too.
>
> Well, I can\'t help an owner that leaves his legs
> open, then gets denutted.
>
> Spending $2K in vet work on a nickel claimer is
> like putting leather seats in an \'85 Corolla, to
> my way of thinking...and if a trainer did that
> with one of my horses without authorization, he\'d
> have to eat the bill himself.
>
> If owners are willing to put up with that
> bullshit, there will always be a long line of
> trainers waiting to fleece them.
>
> And I still think I\'d do better with a winning
> trainer.
Rick,
Buy a horse and show everyone the proper way to run a stable.
Sounds like these guys have lots of experience owning horses, something you don\'t have. Criticizing them, without having been in their shoes, is a bit disingenuous.
I have friends that have owned/own horses, and I have heard the same stories from them. It aint easy.
P-Dub Wrote:
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> Rick,
>
> Buy a horse and show everyone the proper way to
> run a stable.
>
> Sounds like these guys have lots of experience
> owning horses, something you don\'t have.
> Criticizing them, without having been in their
> shoes, is a bit disingenuous.
>
> I have friends that have owned/own horses, and I
> have heard the same stories from them. It aint
> easy.
Having \"experience\" in owning horses doesn\'t impress me a bit if the owners don\'t also have common sense. Maybe they just have alot of money.
A monthly $2K vet bill for a $5K claimer? Must I really point out how goofy that is? (NEWSFLASH to anyone paying this: You are being ROBBED.)
I don\'t need to own a horse to spot a bad deal, and I don\'t need to lose gobs of cash to comment on what a bad idea that is. So-called \"experience\" can be overrated.
Hey Rick...You are making my point for me... i am saying you can\'t afford these high percentage trainers you like so much for a cheap claimer. But forget $5k, you can\'t afford to use them for a $20k claimer either... You better have a good allowance or stakes horse and it better stay healthy.
You have stars in your eyes for these Super trainers but you don\'t want to pay their rates? They won\'t even answer your call unless you have an expensive well meant animal to work with.
Nobody starts out intending to give Pletcher and Dutrow a low claimer. Unfortunately however statistics say that\'s where 90% of these horses is going is going to end up. You only see the tip of the iceberg. These guys have gotten rid of most of their crap stock before you ever see them. How many horses do you think Pletcher or Dutrow have start their yearling breaking in their program before you see a Soldat or Flashpoint on your TV screen. Hundreds.
It goes more like this.. $100 a day and all kinds of vet bills for months before he even runs. Then he does run poorly and you make some excuses and adjustments, he runs poorly again. After a few of these you realize he\'s a claiming animal. But you\'re 8 months into it already. So yeah you got denutted as you say, but nobody admitted he was a $5k claimer until today. Then you might move him to a cheaper trainer who was probably an assistant to Pletcher or Dutrow in the past. They charge a cheaper day rate which seems like a good deal, but those vet bills have a way of creeping up on you again as they apprenticed in this style. Asmussen is the only one of the so called super trainers who even keeps and runs the low level horses as a part of his business plan. He runs bottom level stuff every day and you would not enjoy those vet bills. He doesn\'t cut his rate or ask you if you\'d prefer less meds or vet work for your low level animal if that\'s what it turns out to be.
I guess the point is that unless you have regal stock, at least that lower win percentage low vet bill trainer will get you to that all important point of finding out if your horse is talented at all for much much less money. If it\'s a good horse, you have options. And you\'re lucky.
The Hunt For Red Tricky continues! They left out the part that xyzaline is generally used and permitted 96 hours out, from memory.Tricky definitely targeted more for being an emabarrassment to Racing than anything,imo.
AP: Dutrow Faces Loss of License
Kentucky Derby (gr. I)-winning trainer Rick Dutrow Jr. has some explaining to do.
New York racing authorities deemed Dutrow "obnoxious" and "unbecoming" and ordered him to show why he should not be suspended, lose his license, and be kicked off state tracks after years and dozens of sanctions.
The New York State Racing and Wagering Board suspended Dutrow twice last month. The suspensions totaled 90 days for hypodermic needles in his barn and for a winning horse\'s positive test for a banned painkiller at Aqueduct last year.
Dutrow has appealed and the board scheduled hearings for March 30-31.
On March 3, the board also questioned the conduct and character of the trainer who won the 2008 Derby and Preakness (gr. I) with Big Brown , taking the unusual step of considering revoking Dutrow\'s license. The notice says Dutrow is a "person whose conduct at race tracks in New York state and elsewhere has been improper, obnoxious, unbecoming, and detrimental to the best interests of racing."
It goes on to say his "character and general fitness are such that your participation in pari-mutuel racing is inconsistent with the public interest" based on recent suspensions and "your history of rule violations."
Dutrow\'s lawyer insisted there is no merit to the claims.
"When all the facts are in, and the witch hunt is over, we are confident that Mr. Dutrow will be totally vindicated," lawyer Gerard Romski wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.
The notice comes two weeks after Ed Martin, president of the Association of Racing Commissioners International, sent a letter to the board asking it to "revisit the question" of whether Dutrow should be allowed to "participate in racing at all."
Martin, a former executive director of the NYSRWB, said that since 1979, Dutrow has been sanctioned "at least 64 times for various rules violations in nine different states at 15 racetracks."
The most recent accusations:
• Dutrow\'s horse Fastus Cactus tested positive for the drug butorphanol--a pain killer--after winning the third race at Aqueduct Nov. 20.
• Three hypodermic needles were found in Dutrow\'s barn at Aqueduct Nov. 3.
• Three unlabeled syringes were "loaded with the drug xyzaline" in Dutrow\'s desk at Aqueduct\'s Barn 10. The drug listed as Xylazine can be used as a muscle relaxer.
• Improper conduct based on previous accusations and "history of rules violations."
• Dutrow has won more than a dozen training titles in New York over the past 10 years. He won the Derby and Preakness with Big Brown, but the horse was pulled up and finished last in the Belmont Stakes (gr. I). He also trained 2005 Horse of the Year Saint Liam and currently trains Derby prospect Flashpoint, winner of the Feb. 26 Hutcheson
I don\'t know about the rest of it, and as I have said here before the positives they actually do get are seldom the real issue with any of these guys. But the needles and the huge TCO2 overage in Kentucky a couple of years ago are serious business.