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General Category => Ask the Experts => Topic started by: miff on January 15, 2011, 06:45:15 AM

Title: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: miff on January 15, 2011, 06:45:15 AM
DRF.Com
How fast too fast?
By Brad Free

Square Eddie is a good horse, and trainer Doug O'Neill was right. Despite not having started Square Eddie in more than one year, O'Neill said "He's ready to win."

He was more than ready, it turns out.

Square Eddie on Friday obliterated the Santa Anita track record for six and one-half furlongs, a record set more than 12 years ago by Son of a Pistol.

Square Eddie smashed it. He raced virtually gate to wire in 1:13.11, three-fifths off the old mark. He did it while geared down the final yards.

Records that are set by good horses can be a cause for celebration, and Square Eddie is a good horse. But he was racing in a second-level allowance race, not a graded stake.

And the way records are falling this winter at Santa Anita, celebration might give way to concern.

The Factor, a 2-year-old, set the new mark for six furlongs when he went in 1:06.98 on Dec. 26.

Twirling Candy, a good horse but not yet great, set the new mark for seven furlongs, 1:19.70 on Dec. 26.

That prompted one longtime Santa Anita employee to make this cynical remark: "It's about time we got that bum Spectacular Bid out of the record book."

Twirling Candy bruised a foot and has not raced since. Neither has The Factor.

Then the news broke Friday about Sidney's Candy. He had raced a mile in 1:33.70, also on Dec. 26.

Sidney\'s Candy is "off" and scratched from the Grade 2 San Fernando Stakes on Saturday. Preliminary indications are the setback was not serious.

Horses get hurt everywhere. No one is blaming the Santa Anita track.

But three track records the first 13 days of racing does seem strange.

Square Eddie, a Grade 1 winner in fall 2008, is a good horse.

Let's hope he is good enough to run fast, and then run again.

Because when horses run as fast as they have been running this winter at Santa Anita, one has to ask again – at what expense?
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: Dana666 on January 15, 2011, 08:08:29 AM
Excellent analysis! I would add that I do believe Twirling Candy is a great horse though - he\'s like a Quality Road type to me. I always thought he was one of the best of his age group though obviously he has his issues, a lot of super fast horses do.

Years ago when SA was dirt and it would rain, the track would get lightning fast and like cement. Times would be outrageous and the horses who achieved those times were more than likely never heard from again - the track completely ruined most of them. I had hoped this wouldn\'t be the case with the recent surface switch, but as you point out, that may indeed be the case again.

I posted a while back that the big key would be to see what all those fast horses did the next time out. Not a good sign so far. I also heard a lot of horses have been breaking down, way more than usual for the time period. I\'m not sure why they can\'t get this surface thing figured out. I can\'t think of too many other tracks where it is such an issue.

When they switched back to dirt, a big California player I know was so happy, and I told him it may well be too late to fix the problems out there, and I may be right. The horse population is still shrinking, and the races are mostly small, terrible betting races. Seriously, how do you sell someone on SA when they\'ve got Gulfstream and Tampa, for example, with innovative bets, huge competitive fields and huge pools?!
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: TGJB on January 15, 2011, 11:01:51 AM
Cushion depth is a big factor in track speed. Last I heard it was about 4\" in NY, someone here said 3 1/2 at SA, though I can\'t find it on the site. When Secretariat etc. were running, Belmont had a 3\" cushion.
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: drbillym on January 15, 2011, 11:17:24 AM
If you google santa anitas new track depth, you will get a link from signonsandiego.com which features a story for opening day, listing the track depth as 3 1/2\".  Now I don\'t know if it has changed since then.  By the way, we think Platinumplus will handle the class rise on the 19th.
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: sighthound on January 15, 2011, 05:32:45 PM
Yes, but cushions vary with the track composition (can\'t compare depth to depth at different tracks)  SA opened at 3 1/2\" - I know they backraked it to try and slow it down.  Any other info?
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: sighthound on January 15, 2011, 05:35:36 PM
Speed kills.  Horses are more likely to blow apart as speed increases.  What are trainers saying out there?

Doesn\'t seem like the times are phoney, seems like the track is plenty hard and fast.
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: miff on January 16, 2011, 06:22:13 AM
JB,

Problem is that when you follow the \"posted cushion\" say at NY,you find that the same posted cushion on consecutive days produces very different track speed.Maybe wind, moisture,maintenance but raw times for the same caliber runners comes up very different day to day. Would not rely on posted cushion as a barometer of track speed anymore.Of course, as you stated,cushion size and track speed are supposed to be closely related.

Sight,

The term \"phony\" is jargon that a group of us use to describe that the surface is producing the ridiculous raw times, not the horse\'s ability.When maiden claimers are running 8 and change for 6 f at Santa,that is obviously the surface.From out there it was reported that horses are kinda running over the top of this dirt surface as opposed to powering through it, which is the norm for dirt tracks.


Mike
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: TGJB on January 16, 2011, 12:46:47 PM
Mike-- I covered all this in Changing Track Speeds. Yes, multiple things (and therefore an even larger combinations of things) affect track speed-- composition, moisture content, cushion depth, track maintenance. Cushion depth isn\'t the only factor-- but if all the other things are constant, deeper cushion = slower times.

So no, I don\'t have some automatic conversion for cushion depth.
Title: Re: Phony Raw Times at Santa
Post by: sighthound on January 16, 2011, 02:23:10 PM
Thanks, wasn\'t quite sure if you were blaming the timers or the track speed.

Just watched three nice 3yr-olds go 6.5 MSW.  First race for all of them, lots of chatter:

Da Ruler - Roman Ruler-Dirty Diana - Baffert/Smith:  Preakness

Albergatti - Unbridleds Song-My Miss Storm Cat - Assmussen/Garrett Gomez:  hope he skips Derby, waits for Belmont & fall with this big talented undeveloped boy

Doubledown On Ten - Rock Hard Ten-Beau Watch - Sadler/Bejarano:  here\'s a Derby hope.