I have nothing else to say. I\'m completely heartbroken.
I watched the replay a few times.
If someone can tell me what Smith was thinking about for the first 1/8 of a mile, it might be an interesting tale.
Looked about as interested as Life At Ten did yesterday.
I imagine he was wondering why the hell she wasn\'t getting up in the bridle.
sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I imagine he was wondering why the hell she wasn\'t
> getting up in the bridle.
Could be, maybe she was thinking, I have to do something to lose, or I\'ll make a whole generation of wise guys look like rank amateurs if I win.
But you are so much smarter than that. Good for you.
Yeah, really. Pretty sure she was even money, and did not win.
I won\'t have much of an opinion until I do figures, but I will say this-- QR\'s fate was sealed when he got pinned down on the dead rail. Couldn\'t see the race well enough to really see where anyone else was.
Even money was absurd.
But not nearly as absurd as some of the commentary pre race on how she was \'overmatched\' , the underlay of all time, etc.
A monster effort, considering the insane dawdling out of the gate. I think Smith blew it.
Pace was very modest, she prob threw a 22 and change 1/4 in there early on, just to get back in the game, way faster than any of the others had to run.
Oh please. She didn\'t win, she was half a head short. She\'s a very good race mare. I\'m tired of people dissing her. No, she\'s not Secretariat, nor \"the best mare evah\". She is a very classy and accomplished race mare.
I think Smith saved it. He at least knew she wasn\'t running her race, and rattled her cage up the backstretch and was smart enough to make a little move early just after heading into the far turn. She never seemed to get interested until the head of the stretch in traffic.
While I\'m glad her connections felt this loss, I acknowledge the greatness of her consistancy to run to a 0. No horse will ever run like that ever again.
I too am interested in the figures. QR on the dead rail, Fly Down checked twice, once right after the break and again in the first turn. He\'s in the photo if he gets a clean run. More than honest sharp fractions up front none-the-less set it up for the closers. Probably another 0. Blame neg 1 for the ground loss.
I think QR is retired. He doesn\'t seem to want to be a race horse.
Blame and the second string were a few lengths back from the speed, running their own race.
Really? A couple of races beyond his best distance, losing to the probable horse of the year by a nose, and buried on the rail today and he should retire?
Let\'s get him back to a mile after a couple of months off and see what happens.
He\'s just got issue after issue. Pletcher\'s done a good job with him, but he strikes me as too mentally fragile to be a race horse.
I would like to see him get time off then come back a miler, too, if he can.
Smith said in his post race interview she wasn\'t handling the dirt getting kicked back in her face at first, so she took herself back that far early to get away from it. This was the biggest field she\'s faced on a natural dirt track, so the amount coming back had to be a lot; she\'s never been stung by that much sand at once. The kickback on the synthetics is nothing like the natural stuff.
Gomez did the smart thing and let Blame drift out towards the middle so he could see her, and the more he drifted closer the more Blame was digging in to keep his advantage. She didn\'t go past him in the gallop out after the wire, so in the last few yards of the race they both had basically nothing left. She was forced to lay it all down for the fist time in her life. That last bit of energy she needed to close the deal just wasn\'t there, probably spent by having to make up all that ground just to get herself in it.
QR was done when he drew the rail, dead or not.Johnny V said \"we\'re dead\" when told QR drew post one. Notice his head cocked right early on, totally uncomfortable while pinned down in there and a dead rail to boot.
Someone said Smith blew the ride on Z, BRILLIANT! Z was getting kick back blasted and was unfamiliar with it despite racing on dirt twice before.Z was a \"seam\" away from being retired undefeated.Blame got the perfect seam,fired his best shot and was game to the wire.Blame is a very nice horse,but hardly a great one.
Classic was average, fig wise, especially when looking at Uncle MO(two turn 1 1/16th mile) who projected out much faster.
Z showed she fits very well with the best males. Z will retire with a great race record, average speed figs but consistency unsurpassed by any horse in modern times.
Mike
Quality Roads fate was sealed when he entered the race. Wouldn\'t have mattered where he drew because at his core hes a chicken shit. He may be fast when hes unmolested and allowed to run HIS race, but you take him out of that game hes a chicken shit.
The real good horses, the really special ones....They don\'t need a set up, they dont need anything. They finish running like Zenyatta did, like Blame did. Im pretty comfortable saying Zenyatta was the best horse in that field, and if they ran the race 10 more times she wins 80 percent of the time.
that either.
You guys in here are like Lemmings. Reading this stuff is true comedy.
>>The real good horses, the really special ones....They don\'t need a set up, they >>dont need anything.
Actually they do need help. Zenyatta used to be quite a bit of a \"head case\" - she\'d get wound up and freaked out. She was trained out of it. It took some time.
Pletcher has done alot of work with QR, he\'s much better.
Im talking about raceshape, not a horses mental state.
QR\'s race fell apart because he hates being pinned on the rail. That\'s mental.
I think hes a chicken shit. He needs things his way. Any horse can freewheel at GSP and run up the score on a bunch of inferior horses, get some trumped up ridiculous figure, and be the second coming of christ. When you put a world class horse in the gate, regardless of post, they are supposed to fire a shot. I understand race complexion. I understand the rail draw was the absolute worst for him, that being said hes fast enough he shoulda been able to get away and navigate a trip. If the mile and a quarter gets him, sobeit. At some point its not all mental, thats the quality of the horse, the class of the horse. Why speed figures are a secondary form of handicapping IMO.
Maybe a race or two on dirt this year behind real horses would have helped her out.
Then she was an overlay! She should have been 2-5!!!!
Badride Wrote:
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> Im pretty comfortable saying
> Zenyatta was the best horse in that field, and if
> they ran the race 10 more times she wins 80
> percent of the time.
> that either.
>
>
I have never been able to beat against her because I know shes the best, and never with her because I know its a matter of time before that pinhead gets her beat. Amazing it took him 20 races to do it, wanna talk about great. If you can overcome some of the butcher jobs hes tried to give, lawd have mercy.
badride, some here think that if they make a horse 20-1 and it gets beat a head, they were right.
i didn\'t think QR was pinned on the rail in the classic sense, by a wall of horses.
In fact there were two horses in paths inside him right in back of him, so he wasn\'t even rail skimming at the start. If it was another horse, they might have called it a perfect stalking ground saving trip up the back side. I thought he looked uncomfortable but he certainly wasn\'t pinned. I didn\'t think he would run a good one, but he got out of there to the front set without bring pinned. I was surprised he didn\'t gas to a clear lead because it was there for him. Either way, finishing last was pitiful.
Ive seen some pretty entertaining stuff here. From these seminars to the Zenyatta bashing, to these guys falling off a mountain like Lemmings. Yeah....She got beat a nose. The Seminar said, or so I read, that shes suposed to run off the board. THe only reason she doesn\'t win is because of the potato sack on her back. Shes probably 3 the best in there. Her 112 beyer is an injustice, but so were her prerace thorographs. You don\'t gauge a horse like that on a figure. If you cannot tell thats a special animal....Fellas go play cricket
Z\'s trip looked like all her other trips. She was way back, but she always is. Once she broke in the clear everyone thought she was going to win and she had no excuses from there, but Blame just outfought her in the last 100 yards.
Looked like it. Can\'t blame it all on the path.
Her trip was brutal. She was pinched back by Ramsey\'s crow. Smith took her way too far back early, you cannot spot those kinda horses 25 and expect to win. She was 2-1 on blame the last 150 yards. She absolutely ran her eyeballs out, was absolutely the best. If you give blame her starting spot he doesn\'t get a sniff. He was game to hold her off, Gomez rode his ass off, Gomez carried that horse home. Not to say Blame isn\'t an exceptional horse. However the better jock won today, not the better animal
Hes just a very one deminsional horse. When Blame rolled up to him he just pinned those ears. He wasn\'t going to fight with him. Another 16th Blame woulda ran off and hid. That was all I needed to see to X that horse out. YOu know who he peaked and then tailed off like.....A lot like Lawyer Ron, another Pletcher who ran those gawdy figs and then looked like a shytsandwich
QR was an easy toss for me. I don\'t know how everyone was picking him to beat Blame when Blame eyeballed him and drew away in a shorter race. That plus the premature stud announcement and the changed training methods. it was easy to see the connections were not confident about this one even before the draw. Why did people think he would beat Blame at 1 and a quarter? To finish last though is inexcusable.
Why are you posting on a Thorograph message board?
Correct about gallop out, she was all spent. I don\'t blame Mike as she didn\'t take the bit early and left herself too much to do against the best dirt horses she ever faced. This was a much tougher task than closing on a bunched up field on polytrack in last years Cup. If you want to place Blame I put it on Sherrif and Moss. They had all year to point to this race and win Horse of the Year. If it was my horse I would have shipped her to Churchill, trained and breezed up to the race including a sharper work to make sure she was comfortable on the track. I would have pulled out all the stops for this race. They just thought she was good enough to overcome everything and still win. They were almost right but why take a chance. It sure wasn\'t Zenyatta\'s fault that she finally lost.
Bad,
Pssst, don\'t tell anyone, some horses won\'t run a lick down inside. If you think QR is as bad as he ran today, you don\'t have a clue.
Mike
nt
By the way.. my toss of QR not withstanding, I thought the TG analysis was really good both days on the dirt races. A lot of the prices came under as noted and the calls on Dubai Majesty and Big Drama were breathe easy bets. And 3 of the 4 choices in the classic hit the Super for the baby 10 cent super. Hit that but just played the Classic very light as I just wanted to enjoy watching & rooting for Z to run.
i was really pleased with the analysis. I know some guys who play the other services like HTR and they didn\'t anything either day.
so true...and then it\'s left posted for...well, quite some time. The days when the analysis goes 0 for the card - not posted. Check the dates out on the board at the top! TG had a big exacta once and for whatever reason it\'s still a big deal. I\'m a TG fan, but come one guys.
I won the twin tri at Sportsmans in \'96, you shoulda been there...
Big Drama ran a monster. I had the opportunity to be around BD up at Saratoga. What a gentle horse he is. Nice to see a nice guy like DF win that race. Well done.
Her mind seemed to wander today for the first quarter - usually she\'s way back, as you say, but she settles into a steady lick with her ears up. Not today.
Life at Ten & Zenyatta had one annoyong similarity - Jerry Bailey. Velasquez was clearly trying to focus on his horse while Bailey was interrogating him during the warm up period. Pletcher said that he asked that Life at Ten be warmed up good & that didn\'t happen. If the rider had the extra time to focus, rather than being accomodative, he may have been able to save the publics money & racings embarrassment.
Could be similar situation with Zenyatta. Early in the race she was trying to get a feel of the racing surface. Her \"dance\" was normal but I don\'t recall the \"pawing\" in other pre races. Any additional warming up by Smith could not have hurt her.
I understand TV\'s desire to bring viewers inside the heads of the participants but lets not compromise the event.
Smith said he was happy with her warmup, and having been on her for three years, he has to be given the benefit of any doubt. They way she ran bears testimony to the fact he was happy when they went into the gate.
Looking at the race again, it\'s easy to play \"what if\" about Zenyatta. But the truth is Blame actually ran just a little bit better than she did when it mattered, in fact he actually had to fully commit to kick for it sooner than she did and still held himself together. The pace was brisk but not suicidal, yet the front runners were starting to fold sooner than you\'d have thought they would have at this level of racing. So the moment of truth for the contenders which were close up came at the 5/16ths, just before coming out of the turn, instead of the preferred tactic of fully committing after you\'re out of the turn, balanced and upright. Blame, Lookin At Lucky, and Etched had to have their spots to strike already claimed and basically commit before they came out of the turn, or risk gaps closing if they\'d waited until straightening up. In that way, Zenyatta did almost exactly what she did last year: cut the corner inside and then move outside at the 3/16ths. If you watch both races from the 1/4 pole to the finish, her stretch run looks basically the same. Blame, however, had plenty of his own work to do. Once he got to his opening, it took him from the 1/4 pole to the 1/8 pole to fully beat back Lookin at Lucky. He was now fully committed, and then he still had to fend off Zenyatta, who was well out in the middle of the track. So he had to commit early and put two good ones away in succession, and yet he still kept finding more to do it. Zenyatta really put in her same run as last year in the final quarter mile - in fact she was the last one to commit, which the way this race unfolded, was an advantage. It may have taken her a bit longer to get outside, but the stretch run at Churchill is about 30 yards longer than Santa Anita. As Smith said in his press conference, he needed Blame to fold a little bit. And Blame never did.
As for Quality Road. I don\'t know about a dead rail or not, but it was clear once the gates opened his chances were slim-to-none. This was a very unhappy animal coming down the stretch the first time. He was on the wrong lead all through the first quarter mile, and his head was tilted to his right. It was clear this was never going to be his day by the time they went 10 strides into the race. Whether he was jarred up mentally by the lights, or the crowd, or whether he never fully recovered from his Met Mile, the fact is that before they went a 16th of a mile, any tickets with him on them were bound for the trash heap.
Pletcher did QR a real disservice by not running him in the Dirt Mile. QR would have dominated that field, taken the money and eased into retirement with a little bit of dignity. Instead, the poor animal is exposed to the world for the 10 furlong phoney he was all along. It wasn\'t the horses fault, he\'d already shown he wanted no part of 10 furlongs. Quality Road at a Flat Mile would have been the perfect match. \"On his best\" the most likely winner. Laughable.....
For all of you wondering why I defend Zenyatta and Mike Smith, yesterday\'s performance couldn\'t have answered those questions any better.
That was a remarkable performance by a true champion. Squeezed right out of the gate, drops back around 20 lengths as she struggled to grab hold of the track and deal with kickback. As mentioned previously, she lost a bit of momentum dodging Quality Road and having to swerve sideways to get a clear run. Once she did, after dealing with adversity several times during the race, she threw it down as only the very best can do.
Its frustrating for her fans to play the what if game. What if: she gets a clean break, grabs a hold of the track a bit sooner, doesn\'t have to dodge QR and 7 others looking for a clear path. But those things are part of the game. Blame had a cleaner trip on a track he loves, and he was a most deserving winner. Zenyatta made her run and Blame wouldn\'t let her go by. The really good ones do this, and Blame is certainly that. A very good horse.
I truly believe that if they run that race 10 more times, Zenyatta wins at least 8 of them. It took a surface the opponent loves, an eventful trip from start to finish, to get her beat by a desperate nose. Its just my opinion.
She will retire with her reputation intact, leaving us with a performance that while a bit dissatisfying for her fans, gaining the respect from every racing fan out there. Even her detractors have finally given her the respect she deserves, and that is good to see.
I have been fortunate to watch her run at the previous 2 runnings of the BC at Santa Anita. Smalltimer and I were standing by the Santa Anita tunnel right after last year\'s Classic, and she walked right by us. Couldn\'t have been more than 5 feet away. What a thrill to be that close to one of the greats, a moment I will never forget.
I was bummed out after yesterday\'s race. I made pretty good money over the 2 days, hit the Classic tri, but that meant nothing to me. I just wanted her to win. Waking up this morning, after the sting of her defeat has been slept away, I feel much better. All you can ask of anybody is that they give there very best effort. Zenyatta certainly did that.
Lastly, thanks to JB and his staff for a great product. You guys consistently put out the best information, and your BC information has been outstanding for years. I am leaving for Hawaii Monday morning for 12 days, and I now have a few extra bucks to spend over there. Might even justify paying the ridiculous greens fees they charge.
Are they definitely retiring Z? If would be great if she would run next year now that the pressure is off the undefeated record. And maybe run a more interesting schedule. Why not run her one more year? She can have babies into her 20\'s and you know the Mosses probably wont be selling any of them anyway. So no real financial incentive to breed right away. She\'s so huge her babies probably won\'t run til 3yo
so it\'ll be a long 4 years to see her progeny get going. Better to enjoy another year now of racing.
P-Dub:
Hawaii for 12 days?......and miss all of the thrilling cards at Aqueduct?
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Good God, take a pill. Ask yourself, what did yesterday prove? For one, it proved that she was as fast as the best horses in training, of any sex. But not faster...her TG figures said as much. Her performance said as much.
Had she been running in fields like this for 3 seasons she would not be 80%, she would not be 50%...she would be lucky to be 33% and that would qualify her for greatness itself. So stop swooning, for crying out loud.
And the next time someone mentions her in the same breath as Secretariat...or compares Quality Road or Eskendreya or any other superhorse du jour to him, take another pill.
Jeez.
I was thinking the same thing.
Aloha, Buddy.
Lost in all of the Zenyatta madness, how bout them Raiders?!
If you can jump on a \"puddle jumper\" to the Island of Lanai, try to play the
\"Challenge at Manele\", a very difficult course which features awesome views
of the Island of Maui off in the distance.
Interesting moment in Living Room Downs yesterday, as the gambler and the horse
racing fan inside of me were having an epic battle--it would have cost me about
$800 in late doubles and Classic doubles if Zenyatta went by, but part of me
really wanted to see History Being Made.
Even with catching the doubles, came up a little short on the weekend, but
without regrets. It would have been very difficult for me to come up with Shared
Account or Dakota Phone under any circumstances other than hitting the \"All\"
button.
I didn\'t do as well...I had a very large tri in the Shared Account race and finished 2,3,4,5...very frustrating....and Dakota Phone closed me out of 3 rolling pick 3s in which I hit all the other winners...and of course I finished second to Dakota Phone.
Also watched in horror as the California POS Champ Pegasus split my last big trifecta bet, running the greatest race of his life...naturally, I was 1st, 3rd and 4th in that one.
It went on and on like that for 2 days.
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good God, take a pill. Ask yourself, what did
> yesterday prove? For one, it proved that she was
> as fast as the best horses in training, of any
> sex. But not faster...her TG figures said as
> much. Her performance said as much.
>
> Had she been running in fields like this for 3
> seasons she would not be 80%, she would not be
> 50%...she would be lucky to be 33% and that would
> qualify her for greatness itself. So stop
> swooning, for crying out loud.
>
> And the next time someone mentions her in the same
> breath as Secretariat...or compares Quality Road
> or Eskendreya or any other superhorse du jour to
> him, take another pill.
>
> Jeez.
You might want to take a pill yourself.
Don\'t tell mw who I can root for, or who I can feel bad for after a loss.
Lucky to be 33%?? What pills are you taking?? Some pretty bad stuff apparently.
Stick it someplace pal. I thought this garbage was done with. Why don\'t you take a sleeping pill, speaking of pills.
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn\'t do as well...I had a very large tri in
> the Shared Account race and finished
> 2,3,4,5...very frustrating....and Dakota Phone
> closed me out of 3 rolling pick 3s in which I hit
> all the other winners...and of course I finished
> second to Dakota Phone.
>
> Also watched in horror as the California POS Champ
> Pegasus split my last big trifecta bet, running
> the greatest race of his life...naturally, I was
> 1st, 3rd and 4th in that one.
>
> It went on and on like that for 2 days.
Hey Alm, some clown responded to a previous post of mine with this gem.
\" So stop swooning, for crying out loud.\"
Maybe you should try telling yourself this and follow it, instead of telling others to do it.
Nobody cares that you lost. Boo Hoo.
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Aloha, Buddy.
>
> Lost in all of the Zenyatta madness, how bout them
> Raiders?!
>
> If you can jump on a \"puddle jumper\" to the Island
> of Lanai, try to play the
> \"Challenge at Manele\", a very difficult course
> which features awesome views
> of the Island of Maui off in the distance.
>
> Interesting moment in Living Room Downs yesterday,
> as the gambler and the horse
> racing fan inside of me were having an epic
> battle--it would have cost me about
> $800 in late doubles and Classic doubles if
> Zenyatta went by, but part of me
> really wanted to see History Being Made.
>
> Even with catching the doubles, came up a little
> short on the weekend, but
> without regrets. It would have been very difficult
> for me to come up with Shared
> Account or Dakota Phone under any circumstances
> other than hitting the \"All\"
> button.
Yes Richie, looking forward to the game.
Its raining here in Northern California. Thought about making the 10 minute drive to the stadium, but gotta get ready for the flight. Looking forward to a meaningful game for a change.
Shanahan-- whoa. What? The RBR is automated, we don\'t make any decisions as to leaving anything up. It\'s up the next day, good or bad, then comes down automatically. If you see different please show me when it happens.
I would not be shocked if we seen Zenyatta on the track again. Personally, I hope they retire her. 6 years old, gonna be 7 in April, that\'s getting a little bit long in the tooth if you\'re talking about running with elite company. Without plowing up old snakes here, I don\'t think any true Zenyatta fans would care to have her come back as uninterested as Rachel appeared to be, right? Rachel appeared to lose her zeal and excitement for the racetrack and try as she might she was never able to recover to her previous greatness. I know it had to be just a bit painful for those real Rachel fans to watch her get beat by females who she would have crushed in \'09. At least Jackson and Asmussen were smart enough to retire her before she went to Churchill and likely got embarrassed in the Classic. I\'m not interested in seeing Zenyatta maybe get drilled by the lesser types.
I think the decision for her to be retired or continue racing will be left up strictly to Zenyatta herself. Don\'t laugh, if she starts kicking down the barn again that temptation to run her another time or two will be hard for the Mosses to resist. If she still shows a great desire to get on the race track, its possible we see her again.
Now that the goose egg is off the unbeaten record, its hard to imagine what they may decide.
After fellow players like Dana, P-Dub, myself and others had to endure the nonsense about Zenyatta for the last couple years, its very satifying that we all get to walk away with our heads held high. Way to go fellas!!!!
If you\'re referring to the \"sticky\" at the top of the message board list entitled \"unbelievable exacta\", you might want to read it
I had a great time...lots of winners but no big winning bets...I know how to lose clown...I also know how to win...no complaints...just stop crying over the mare.
I\'m not crying over anything chump.
Take a few more pills, maybe you\'ll sleep a little longer. That or just shut your mouth already.
Dub-- enough. What he said was fairly mild compared to what\'s been said here over the years by a lot of people, including you.
Fine Jerry.
Ironic how he tells me to stop crying, then in the next breath he\'s sniveling over the races.
I\'m packing for Hawaii, that dude is the last thing I\'ll worry about. I just have a hard time dealing with hypocrites.
Back to watching the Raiders drop the ball all over the place.
Relax out there, P-Dub. Lots of grass skirts-bring a lawnmower.
Dub-- relax, man. You had a very good weekend, unless you parlayed on the Raiders. And the Giants had a pretty good year. Or is that the same thing as the Yanks winning is to a Met fan...
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dub-- relax, man. You had a very good weekend,
> unless you parlayed on the Raiders. And the Giants
> had a pretty good year. Or is that the same thing
> as the Yanks winning is to a Met fan...
I will chill out. My apologies. My good friend is constantly telling me the same thing. Sometimes I can\'t help myself and come across as an ass.
Yes JB, it is EXACTLY the same thing. I\'m an A\'s fan, don\'t like the Giants at all.
Jacoby Ford just returned the second half kick for a TD.
I will now relax. Hey Richie, is it an Italian thing with me or something else??
Nick Kling gets it.
http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/11/07/sports/horseracing/doc4cd637f16f635181956427.txt?viewmode=fullstory
Best synopsis of the race. Well done by Kling.
P-Dub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will now relax. Hey Richie, is it an Italian
> thing with me or something else??
Duke P-Dubhamaala:
While being born and raised in Staten Island assured me a certain degree
of Italianization, the truth is I am a Russian/Hungarian Jew and might
not be qualified to determine whether your argumentative nature has any-
thing to do with your Mediterranean roots.
Hang ten, bra.
Amen.
I went into the classic admiring her record but a little skeptical as to whether she could hang with the big boys on the dirt - I came out of the race realizing what a truly great horse she is - one of the best ever. Those who have been bad mouthing her for the past few weeks should be eating their words.
Had she flopped like QR or finished a badly beaten 7th or 8th us Zenyatta supporters would be getting flogged unmercifully by some of her haters. We would have been subjected to a steady diet of insults until the end of time. Too bad sekrah, Monmouth and a few others finally have to STFU about her talent. (Actually its a good thing they finally have to STFU about this great mare).
Peace out to the majority of the room
Monmouth still drooling, he says my posts this week saying Zenyatta as a bet against was grossly overrated was a disgrace. ;-)
Just for completeness, 8/5 , no less 1-1 was a terrible price, but not nearly as far away from fair odds as the bashers were implying. I think Betfair had it just about right at 2-1.
Personally I\'d like to see Zenyatta continue on with her campaign , the horse wants to run .. .
Lots of bets look good after the race. Keep in mind that by far the fastest horse on figures was completely eliminated by the dead rail, which dramatically increased everyone else\'s chance of winning.
Actually, he doesn\'t get it. Does he work for TVG? Sounds like it.
The unfortunate thing is that Zenyatta zealots go so far over the top, it puts those that are not zealots in the position of criticizing her, even if they don\'t want to.
She didn\'t win. She was the best horse in the race yesterday. Blame won. Blame was best.
She was gallant and enhanced her reputation with many non-fans.
But Blame won.
Hope you had the parlay, Paul. Didn\'t see it but looks like Janikowski made amends for a few weeks ago. Bon voyage!
BB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hope you had the parlay, Paul. Didn\'t see it but
> looks like Janikowski made amends for a few weeks
> ago. Bon voyage!
What a way to end the weekend. Yes, Janikowski drilled them both. What a thrilling finish, at least for Raiders fans.
Just finished packing, spaghetti and meatballs on the stove. Thanks for the kind words. I\'m exhausted, and I sat on my butt all weekend.
TGJB
How did Big Drama navigate a trip from the 1 and Quality Road fail to do so. Why wasn\'t BD a victim of the rail as well? Im just curious where the rail comes into play. Because QR should have been tactical enough to put himself in position to win that race, now if he cannot get a mile and a quarter thats one thing, but to chuck it like that....... Im of the opinion QR is a real chicken when he doens\'t get things his own way. I guess the best figure horse doesn\'t win all the time, but I think its unfair to say his chances were compromised by a \"dead rail\" The were compromised by his lack of heart and class. Hes quick enough to get off that dead rail. Curious to hear your thought
Big Drama was able to clear and quickly get far off the rail-- watch the replay. He could gun because he was sprinting. QR was pinned, couldn\'t get off it unless he was willing to go 22 and change to clear, going 1 1/4 (they went 23 1/5). He had no chance at all. That\'s not to say he would have won otherwise, just that we have no way of knowing because of what happened.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Big Drama was able to clear and quickly get far
> off the rail-- watch the replay. He could gun
> because he was sprinting. QR was pinned, couldn\'t
> get off it unless he was willing to go 22 and
> change to clear, going 1 1/4 (they went 23 1/5).
> He had no chance at all. That\'s not to say he
> would have won otherwise, just that we have no way
> of knowing because of what happened.
Blame all but inhaled QR in the same path. Passed by a path wider, but the damage was done.
QR was a dead piece. His chances of getting 10f were slim to none. His last 1/8 at the Spa told you that.
Nice job by TG though. I have no dog in the fight, but the TG \'10 BC figures were the best.
Pletcher said something like QR best asset is being able to just roll and keep rolling. Something like letting him go at a moderate pace is what got him beat by Blame. Why in the biggest race of his life would they harness the only thing that has ever won him a race. That great speed he has, and ability to create a little advantage. I just don\'t get it. I was never a QR fan, especially leading up to the classic. Anytime you start tinkering with a horses running style whos as accomplished as QR you know he cannot handle the distance. That being said his only shot was to gun, deadrail or not. He never showed anything at all. He looked like Lawyer Ron, at the end of his rope. He was flatter than a flapjack at 2am at Ihop.
I thought Big Drama was just dominant. He coulda ran around there glued to the rail and won.
Michael D. Wrote:
> Nice job by TG though. I have no dog in the fight,
> but the TG \'10 BC figures were the best.
I have no basis (or need) for comparison. The TG numbers really helped sort the wheat from the chaff. There will always be a few surprises over a fourteen-race stretch. One which would have surprised the betting public, but not TG readers, was Keertana, if it had flared its nostrils forward at the right moment. That one would have been a game changer. Overall, a very nice job, including the analysis.
moosepalm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Michael D. Wrote:
>
> > Nice job by TG though. I have no dog in the
> fight,
> > but the TG \'10 BC figures were the best.
>
>
> I have no basis (or need) for comparison. The TG
> numbers really helped sort the wheat from the
> chaff. There will always be a few surprises over
> a fourteen-race stretch. One which would have
> surprised the betting public, but not TG readers,
> was Keertana, if it had flared its nostrils
> forward at the right moment. That one would have
> been a game changer. Overall, a very nice job,
> including the analysis.
If Keertana runs 2nd, I would have visited all of the islands, not just 2.
That horse is probably the single biggest woulda coulda for a lot of TG users.
Really don\'t have a problem with Smith\'s ride. Personally I think her connections did her a disservice keeping her in CA as long as they did. With 2-3 weeks in a stall at Churchill and a few works over the track does she settle in better and deal with the kick back etc?
Badride.. Big Drama was clearly moved 3-4 lanes off the rail from the break and was there the whole wasy around. Maybe if watched the races, you wouldn\'t need to pose the questions.
I tossed the horse because of the rail, and after Coa smartly got him off, I said, Good Game Eibar Coa, 1 furlong into the race.
Just watch the replays.I don\'t think there were any horses on the inside that didn\'t tire.On Saturday watch Gibson Crystal in the 1st or Nicole H. in the 2nd.Or read the charts and look at all the 3,4,5 wide winners.Meanwhile you will see the comments inside,empty or rail,weakened over and over.It was obvious both days and for the most part all week.
I am kind of on your side, Jimbo. She\'s a great runner, okay, but how about some perspective?
With all the good horses retired so fast, there were 5 three year-olds in this race and the track did not favor frontrunners at all (was Dakota Phone your first clue?), and so we were back to the same scenario that made her look like a goddess last year.
With a fast track and some horses like a healthy Rachel and normal QR or SummerBird, or Curlin, even Eskenderaya, she would have been toast by 8-10 lengths. So she closes at 10 furlongs to get a \"-1\" or so when only Blame really fired. I mean QR, Haynesfield 10th and 11th??
sekrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Badride Wrote:
> >
> > I thought Big Drama was just dominant. He
> coulda
> > ran around there glued to the rail and won.
>
>
> Wow.. Up there with the most asanine comment of
> the year.
You throw out the fastest horse in the race, and arguably the most likely winner on the entire card.
And you think Badride\'s comment is asinine.
Having Sekrah rate comments is like having Silver check your spelling.
Toss a mortal lock. Maybe you should watch a few more races. Ill take it one step further, he coulda probably ran on top of the rail and won. He was superior, period. That horse was going to win no matter where you put him that day. You give Coa way too much credit if you think that was a conscious effort or if you think he was out in the middle of the track. Watch the race again. If you cannot see where he won from, watch it again. He broke from the one like QR. The difference is he doesnt need a race laid in his lap to run a big figure or give an effort. Hes a racehorse, a real racehorse, not a trumped up puke
She ran her race. Closed a ton of ground. Obviously nothing she would have done would have pleased you guys. So let\'s just leave her alone now. All you figure guys can say whatever you want about her. As Jimbo said, she lost. So did your darling QR and your Haynesfield, and your LAL and your Fly Down and anybody else who finished behind her and \"didn\'t fire\" but ran such superior figures otherwise because they ran on dirt. She always runs her race and the two times she had to up her game she did. Let\'s just get off her back now and slam some other horse. She would never do enough to please some of you guys. Maybe one of her offspring will please you-lol.
Leamas57 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With a fast track and some horses like a healthy
> Rachel and normal QR or SummerBird, or Curlin,
> even Eskenderaya, she would have been toast by
> 8-10 lengths. So she closes at 10 furlongs to get
> a \"-1\" or so when only Blame really fired. I mean
> QR, Haynesfield 10th and 11th??
Wow, you actually believe this??
She ran a \"-1\" on a track that took her at least a half mile to get comfortable on, spots them about 20 lengths, has the almighty Quality Road back up in front of her, swerve around a half dozen horses to get a clear run, and comes up a nose short.
A normal Quality Road gets his ass kicked by her 7 days a week, unless its a 4 horse field going a flat mile at Gulfstream with no speed signed up.
A healthy Rachel would be a great race, 8-10 lengths slower than her?? LOL
Summer Bird?? Please. Beat him last year, but that doesn\'t count I\'m sure. He would have been beaten on any track too, every day of the week.
Curlin?? Maybe, maybe not. Woulda been a great race.
Eskenfrickindereya?? This is just plain ridiculous.
I guess that maiden that ran that huge negative number at CD a few years back would have beaten her too, right?
I\'m done responding to the same bullshit on this board regarding Zenyatta. If yesterday didn\'t convince you, nothing will. What a cynical bunch.
Agreed Leamas. Heralded as one of the greatest horses of all time, she just ran 1 1/4 in 2:02 and change. Calm down. This animal\'s greatness is in her consistancy to show up each time she\'s put in the gate. Alot of that credit goes to the trainer, genes, and synthetic surface. Her best races don\'t hold a candle to any of the all-time greats.
Throwout a strong word. I used him underneath and hit the exacta. You cannot argue that the draw didn\'t hurt Big Drama\'s chances. Things worked out and Coa was able to move him off the rail.
We admire her consistancy, but compared to the greats that\'s she\'s being lumped in with, she is slow, why is that controversial?
Wow P-Dub.. So if Zenyatta is comfortable, she runs a 4 point new top as a 6 year old mare?
Amazing.. Sounds like a Cody Autrey claimer shipping into Delaware Park.
No controversy. You believe that speed figures measure greatness. That\'s why there was all this brouhaha about Quality Road, I guess. But there is more than a speed figure that makes a horse great. Greatness can\'t be measured by a speed figure. There are intangables that figures can\'t measure. You said that people admire her consistency. But not really, because she doesn\'t run fast figures, so her greatness is questioned because she is too slow. Being able to run consistently over a long period of time is a form of greatness that hasn\'t really been seen with most horses. I have never said that she is an equal to Secretariat, Citation, Buckpasser, Man O War, Dr Fager, Damascus, etc. But neither is Quality Road nor Blame. But Blame was only a nose better than the slow horse and Quality Road was nowhere to be seen. It\'s the lack of respect for her. The \"no matter what she did she is still slow\" attitude because a speed figure is the determining factor. This is the last I\'m going to post about it because I\'m very tired of it. It\'s sad that she gets little respect because her \"figures\" aren\'t scorching. But, whatever. That\'s the way it is. I know I am on a speed figure board. I get it.
She should run grass routes. She would be a natural with her style and maybe last a few more years that way. Hell, run her in the Arc. They\'ll call her Joan of Arc and then she can be the greatest mammal that ever lived since Moby Dick.
Leamas
QR was in the 3 path along the front stretch. Watch there are 2 horses inside him just behind him. This defense of QR\'s performance is crazy. He was scared of the rail more than being affected by bad ground there. You think he was jerking his head to the right after the first 3 steps of the race because he was tired? People have to stop propping up this miler who got run down by Blame in their last match up and finished dead last in this one. Yeah he\'s really fast I agree and really one dimensional. The easiest toss in the race. And dead rail or not he quit before any excuse for tiring... if there was a dead rail it was affecting horses in the stretch and he already quit by the time he got there.
On the positive side, QR did stay longer this year than he did in the Classic last year.
I thought Johnny V was trying to bring him off the rail in the first few steps of the race, and then when First Dude got position and squeezed him back in, the race was over for him after 6F on the dead rail. The three US horses on the lead all X\'d badly with decent looking patterns.
Sekrah-- comment on the issues, stop characterizing the comments or commenters.
First of all, Coa said right after the race he did it specifically to get BD off the rail.
On another front, unless I was watching a different race, QR was on the rail the whole way. Couldn\'t see well enough to know where Blame was.
Wrong martoon.. QR was pinned on the rail from the first turn through the middle of the 2nd turn when he threw in the towel. He spent 5-6 furlongs there up near the leaders.
I don\'t know where you get that QR was in the 3 path. In the early stages he got out from the rail, but he was quickly race ridden and pinned back along the rail by the time they hit the first turn. He then stayed there the rest of the race. Given how well documented QR\'s dislike of being stuck inside horses was, it shouldn\'t come as a surprise to anyone that he would be race ridden like that. I don\'t think this guy is really a 1 1/4 horse to begin with, meaning I don\'t think he can beat top notch field at that distance without having a lot of things go in his favor. Now add to that that he has been backing up this year, drew inside for this with two fast horses to his immediate outside and that the rail was about as dead as you will ever see on any track... It can\'t possibly come as a shock to anyone that he finished up the track. I can understand using him as a saver, but that\'s about it.
Speaking of the dead rail, the maintenance team had ample time to fix this by Friday, and most certainly by Saturday. There\'s no excuse for not doing that, and I can\'t believe it was an oversight.
And speaking of the race itself, I thought Zenyatta was going to get me at the end there and bust me out. Considering how much she disliked having dirt kicked back in her face early and the traffic issue she faced late, I think she accounted for herself very well.
Looking back at her career, we can question her competition all we want. But I\'ve never seen a true closing horse like her seem to be so unaffected by early pace. Perhaps the carpet she usually ran on helped her with that, but I certainly can\'t take anything away from her in this defeat.
As an aside, I thought Morning Line ran one hell of race as well in defeat.
Another killer in the Sprint was that the other horse...the Lake horse...did not get out. So BD really had his own way. If BD got pushed on the lead it might have been a different story.
I\'m using \"mighta\" so you can\'t nail me on \"woulda, coulda, shoulda.\" HP
HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another killer in the Sprint was that the other
> horse...the Lake horse...did not get out. So BD
> really had his own way. If BD got pushed on the
> lead it might have been a different story.
>
> I\'m using \"mighta\" so you can\'t nail me on
> \"woulda, coulda, shoulda.\" HP
My whole take on the sprint was that Big Drama would get used up dueling on the inside..When that did not happen I knew I was dead..
Can the dead rail explain Girolamo\'s pitiful performance?
God.... That horse was a complete toss. He is so phoney
Bad, since you had all these phonies figured out you must have really nailed this BC. How well did you do? What were some of your bigger scores?
Badride pre-BC posts - 0
Badride post-BC posts - 16
Congratulations on your big scores this weekend Badride. Good reads in every race. Very impressive. Maybe next time you\'ll get a chance to share one of your insights with the group prior to the races being run. We all want to me make money too.
If I posted all my picks in here your heads would explode and I use no sheet. DOn\'t make me start schooling people in public, just be glad Im here youll learn something
If you behave yourself you will be allowed to post here long enough to school us. Just make sure you do it before the race.
TGJB
Of course I will behave. You\'ll never get a redboard out of me
P-Dub,
as is becoming your trademark, you are over the top (in hindsight, similar to Quality Road)
You talking about the fact that Zenyatta dropped back so far is meaningless. As is that she had a few seconds of traffic. Hello, closers drop back and sometimes get traffic. THis is a function of racing, the same way fronterunners occasionally get cooked on hot paces.
She ran well. Very well. She is a great mare. And had maybe the most consistent form I have ever seen. (I am sure older guys on the board can remember older horses like Forego that I never saw, but for the last 25 years, she has been the most consistent horse I have ever seen.
Your other comments about Quality Road or Rachel in top form, Summer Bird (on dirt) and her winning the race on Saturday 80% of the time are just nonsense. Pure nonsense. Nobody that is objective would believe any of that.
She ran extremely well, and lost. She beat some very good horses. But Blame beat her on the square and for my money she was NEVER getting by.
Before this goes south again, I want to make the same point I made when the NYC kid was getting into it with oldtimers here about Ghostzapper. There\'s a difference between ability and accomplishment, and arguments between people using different measuring sticks are arguments in different languages. There can be no meeting of the minds. Zenyatta accomplished a ton, maybe more than any other dirt mare who ever lived (Goldikova accomplished more on turf, but it\'s apples and oranges). Comparing ability is what we have figures for.
jimbo, if \"her winning the race on Saturday 80% of the time are just nonsense. Pure nonsense. Nobody that is objective would believe any of that. ... she was NEVER getting by\", does that mean that you think that her chances of winning a rerun of that race would be 0%?
I find that to be a curious aspect of this board. For a sport that is based so much on probabilities it sure does seem like many posters here deal only in absolutes like \"never\". I don\'t post much because I seldom find an issue here that I can take an absolute position like that on. Nuances like P-dub\'s \"80%\" don\'t seem to be well received by most who post here. I marvel that so many people can be so absolutely sure of their conclusions. I wish I were that good.
Now that I have expressed my puzzlement at the certainties that abound here, I will now go back into lurking mode and continue to struggle with all my uncertainties and probabilities.
Jimbo,
Not over the top.
You choose to look at horses as machines, push a button and they run a number.
Your argument about closers getting traffic is fine, but you fail to mention that these faster numbers by others are earned under favorable conditions at times. i.e. Distance and surface.
Just because the almighty jimbo says it\'s nonsense it is?? Believe what you want. What happened to the rest of the field?? According to the almighty numbers, she shouldn\'t have hit the board. She lost by a head, what happened to the \"faster\" horses??
So faster horses finished behind her on Saturday , yet we are to believe that the horses mentioned being beaten by her hypothetically won\'t be beaten? They are supposedly faster too, yet the supposedly faster horses Saturday got dusted except for one.
Have some more Kool-aid brah.
P-Dub,
She didn\'t win. Let that sink in. If any other horse lost in a 12 horse field to some very fast horses, running very well like she did, people might say she would be the \"most likely winner\" next time around. Debatable, but certainly possible. But 80% is stupid.
Just like saying she would beat QR at every distance except for a 1 turn mile or beat an at her best Rachel by 8 lengths. She never beat any 2nd place finisher to her by 8 lengths is any of her 19 wins. But we are to believe she would beat the 2008 version of Rachel by 8 lengths. Stupid again.
I, like others on this board (you too TGJB), were very wrong about how well she would run on Saturday. But that doesn\'t any hyperbole you can dream up is correct.
Easy on the word stupid. I\'ve been blasted by JB for talking that way. You can have a debate, disagree, and not resort to that.
We\'ll just agree to disagree. There are some very intelligent people that can say the same for your opinions, so just drop it.
I\'m getting the feeling that everybody on this board needs a nap. Maybe including me.
Ok. I take back stupid, except in reference to my own decision to go from taking a position to keying Big Drama, to throwing him out, because of the dead rail. For that I allow myself to use \"stupid\".
Connecting from Oahu to Kona, I will be taking one asap.
Wow, that was stupid.
Just kidding Jimbo. I know you didn\'t mean it in a personal way, we are just 2 very opinionated people. We\'ll find something to agree on.
Bad - What happened to the \"You\'ll never get a redboard out of me\" line??
He asked. Read up to his question