Don\'t want this to get lost with all the other stuff going on, especially since Frank never responded.
A generation of humans is usually thought to be 25 years, and human athletes have made large strides over the last 25 years-- check out the roster of an NFL team from the 70\'s, and you will see that players now are much bigger, stronger, and faster. There are a lot of reasons for this-- nutrition, sportsmedicine, better training methods, etc. If anyone knows of studies measuring athletic improvement over the last 25 years I would love to know about it.
A generation of horses is probably about 6 or 7 years, and on top of the above mentioned factors you can throw in selective breeding, which improves things with each generation. Also, humans have some say in what drugs are administered to them, horses don\'t. It would be shocking if horses were NOT getting better.
So, how is this reflected in the times of races?
1- Take a look at the times for the Derbies since 1995, and compare them to those before then. They have been much faster.
2- It is tougher to break track records when 1000 races have been run at the distance than when only 100 have-- more times to beat. Still, there have been quite a few track records in recent years-- Kelly Kip had a few himself, Najran the other day, etc.
3- I had conversations with Jerry Porcelli, track superintendent of NYRA, and Joe King, his predecessor. Turns out that tracks used to be mostly clay, which provided fast times when dry, much slower when wet and sticky (which goes to the whole question of races collapsing on off tracks). Over the years tracks have added a higher percentage of sand to help dry things out quicker. Porcelli used the beach analogy-- when dry, sand is slower than clay, but gets faster with moisture, like running on the wet sand near the water. This also goes to a lot of the issues that have come up here before related to tracks changing speed during a card, and horses handling wet tracks (Ragozin almost always has those races collapsing, probably because they used to). But the upshot is, \"fast\" tracks are slower than they used to be.
4- Our figures have gotten faster over the years because horses have gotten faster. Ragozin\'s did not because they locked the figures to fixed par values-- the premise was that 10k claimers etc. were the same year after year, for which there is no logic-- if horses as a group are getting faster you won\'t know it. I had a dialogue about this with Friedman on their site a few years ago under another name, and since then Ragozin\'s figures have gotten faster, which may or may not be a coincidence. In any event, as a result our figures have \"gotten faster\" while theirs have not, at least not as much. So we started out a couple of points slower, and now are a couple of points faster.
Mr. Porcelli also told me some things about banking of turns, but they don\'t apply to the question at hand.
TGJB
Thanks, Moonchild, for noticing the deleted post. It contained no profanity nor did it include anything of a personal nature. I guess the host just didn\'t care for the answer to his wisecrack.
Frank
If you are talking about the one where you thought I might be asking horsemen\'s opinions, I read it, I wasn\'t (which made it irrelevent), and I deleted it along with several others because the posts were coming in so fast that important stuff was being pushed out of sight. If it was something else of importance, post it again now, before things heat up again.
Alydar (\"Moonchild\", aptly named on both counts) will not be allowed to post here again. He snuck a couple in while I was sleeping, and may again, but we\'ll take them down as soon as we see them, and usually the responses with them.
JB,
Another comparision of subjective data.
It would be nice to see horses run consistent fractions like Hombre Rapido
21 43 55 108.
Like JO Tobin
22 46 109 133 158.
All of these fractions do not include
the fifths of a second.
The point being.Huge efforts like Kafwain in the San Vincente,Hombre in The LATIMES and
JO Tobin vs Seattle Slew.
Horses in Peak Condition with lightning fast tracks aka Monorchos in the Derby.
You have these examples.
But what about the slow races like the Belmont in 2000 235 and change for Lukas.
The horses that year were not made to run that far that fast.
Each horse is different.
Each performance is unique.
Each should stand on there own merit.
You asked a direct question. I answered. You deleted. My time is much too important to be wasted debating under those conditions. I will back off now. I\'ll have to be satisfied just knowing how ridiculous it is that the top 12 finishers of the Derby on your figures all ran faster than Ferdinand, Alysheba, Winning Colors, Sunday Silence, etc.
Frank
I have no idea what response you are referring to, so no way to respond. Sorry you feel that way.
FuPig
Red Bullett
Commendable
FuPig\'s Derby time was on an \"overclocked\" track surface. He did win the Wood and San Felipe against broken down Rivals. Was this Tiznow\'s foal year? I\'m not sure, he was the only horse of merit I can recall from this crop.
The Classic winners were as poor a group as I\'ve ever seen.
CtC
CtC,
The answer to your question is yes. Tiznow won the BC Classic that year.
At the risk of starting an argument which I don\'t want to do, there were some pretty good horses who came along in that crop. At least in terms of speed figures.
Tiznow
El Coreador
Albert the Great
Giants Causeway
Milwaukee Brew
Aptitude
FuPeg
Also let me add Captain Steve(Dubai World Cup) and War Chant (BC Mile).
Post Edited (05-14-03 12:11)
Tiznow
Albert the Great
Giants Causeway
Milwaukee Brew
Aptitude
I removed the horses that didn\'t deserve honorable mention. :)
But thanks, I forgot about Albert he was very good.
Giant\'s ran in Europe but for the Cup so I can\'t really count him.
Brew is still chuggin along lol
And Aptitude got good as a four year old.
thx
Strictly one man\'s opinion, but I do respect it.
El Coreador did win the Cigar Mile.
More Than Ready was one fast Two Year Old
Also, Caller One and Swept Overboard were in that bunch and they both had a pretty decent turn of foot.
Who was the Two Year Old Champ among this group???
Anees---Ugh