In the Sabin Justwhistledixie looks very vulnerable. She\'s no faster than several others in here, she\'s given up 6 pounds to some of the ones that are faster than her to begin with and she has to deal with a ship back and forth to the west coast for her last race (I do not know what Billy was thinking about that race at Santa Anita, she has never trained well over the synthetic let along dealing with the ship and the synthetic).
Matchless Orinda\'s last was really fast but she was coming off a long layoff and so we have to presume she had an issue and we know the unsound ones are always more dangerous off the long layoff before another big effort hurts them again so I have to play against her despite the big number.
Jessica is back is the second choice and she looks like the clear winner to me in this one.
The Davona Dale is even more interesting as I think the very likely winner here is Christine Dae and there are so other high profile fillies in there in the form of Amen Hallejuah, Bikersons and Sassy Image so I think we are going to get a bit of a price on her (maybe 5 or 6 to 1) and I think everyone\'s going to be talking about this filly alot after this race.
IF she\'s 5-1 or more, I am going to make a very big play on Christine Dae.
The Very One is a total cluster of a race. Lady Shakespere has a several point advantage on these but she\'s parked way outside and we have to assume she will lose a ton of ground in a 14 horse field going 1 3/8th so I think it makes alot of sense to try and play against here. Bella Allure and Closeout are both pretty fast and figure to run their numbers and both are a price on the ML. With 14 horses, we should tread more carefully in this one than the other 2 races above but it\'s definitely worth taking a stab against LS.
Another great Saturday card at Gulfstream, they have really done a terrific job this year putting these big cards together. Great, contentious fields.
Many of us are vocal in our criticism of alot of the tracks but let\'s give a shoutout to GP for this season so far.
covelj70 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Another great Saturday card at Gulfstream, they
> have really done a terrific job this year putting
> these big cards together. Great, contentious
> fields.
>
> Many of us are vocal in our criticism of alot of
> the tracks but let\'s give a shoutout to GP for
> this season so far.
Covel
I will admit that GP Racing, and especially, Saturday racing, has been excellent.
Considering however that GP has the best weather in the US in wintertime, a top
notch turf course, and good old fashioned dirt racing, added to the fact that
there are no races restricted to horses bred in New York, the racing should be
much better, especially during the week.
Owners/trainers have to love a place where almost no training days will be missed
due to climate. One positive aspect of California \"all weather\" racing is that
we are aware now more than ever that Los Angeles has a rainy season. I saw that
Laz Barrera said that he had worried going into Affirmed\'s Triple Crown season
that he had missed too much training time during a rainy LA winter.
Back to GP: Dirt surface, excellent turf course, no New York breds, excellent
weather, top owners/trainers in attendance. The only 2 facilities in any position
to compete with GP are Santa Anita (weather and surface challenged) and Fair
Grounds (great surfaces, unbelievably bad weather).
The questions should be: Why isn\'t GP offering the best racing meet of the year,
with quality racing 5 days a week? Racing which at times could be compared to
Del Mar or Saratoga or Keeneland?
Purses?
We all know that Frank Stronach is basically downsizing in a controlled
bankruptcy. There is some fascination to me in wondering that if Stronach had not
been so ambitious in purchasing racetracks a few years back, Magna might have been
able to purchase an entire vehicle brand such as Saturn or Hummer, each of which
I think would have been very viable once spun off from GM.
I am way off subject now.
Best of luck with your selections today, Covel. I was giving a brief look to the
last 4 at GP and the 2 SA stakes races when I was called into work today. It
occurred to me that I could conceivably watch and wager from the workplace
(triple W, baby), but believe it or not I\'ve never Triple W\'d before. Never
having lost on a wager made from the job, I might be inclined to keep my record
intact.
Cov
I like that turf race, I am using the clement pair, but I like proud lisa. I like the fact that although a point slower than a couple, has the rail, the distance looks within reach and the pattern looks like a foward move to me at 15-1, a little moisture wouldn\'t hurt either. Good Luck
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> covelj70 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Another great Saturday card at Gulfstream, they
> > have really done a terrific job this year
> putting
> > these big cards together. Great, contentious
> > fields.
> >
> > Many of us are vocal in our criticism of alot
> of
> > the tracks but let\'s give a shoutout to GP for
> > this season so far.
>
> Covel
>
> I will admit that GP Racing, and especially,
> Saturday racing, has been excellent.
>
> Considering however that GP has the best weather
> in the US in wintertime, a top
> notch turf course, and good old fashioned dirt
> racing, added to the fact that
> there are no races restricted to horses bred in
> New York, the racing should be
> much better, especially during the week.
>
> Owners/trainers have to love a place where almost
> no training days will be missed
> due to climate. One positive aspect of California
> \"all weather\" racing is that
> we are aware now more than ever that Los Angeles
> has a rainy season. I saw that
> Laz Barrera said that he had worried going into
> Affirmed\'s Triple Crown season
> that he had missed too much training time during a
> rainy LA winter.
>
> Back to GP: Dirt surface, excellent turf course,
> no New York breds, excellent
> weather, top owners/trainers in attendance. The
> only 2 facilities in any position
> to compete with GP are Santa Anita (weather and
> surface challenged) and Fair
> Grounds (great surfaces, unbelievably bad
> weather).
>
> The questions should be: Why isn\'t GP offering the
> best racing meet of the year,
> with quality racing 5 days a week? Racing which at
> times could be compared to
> Del Mar or Saratoga or Keeneland?
Richie, 4 month meets don\'t match top 3 and 6 week boutique meets. GP is, however, making a pretty good run at Dmr and Sar (tops them at times). If they had stuffed the best of 2010 racing into 6 weeks, the meet would blow away the Sar and Dmr products. But quality has always been lacking during the week at GP, and turns downright dreadful after the Fla Derby. The track is located in Hallandale, not a lovely spot for the most part (not exactly Del Mar), and doesn\'t match a place like Saratoga when it comes to horse tradition. If S Fla were destined to have the best racing in the US, I would imagine either Crc or Hia would have put out a better product over the years.
Truth is, GP is putting out arguably the best racing in the history of the track, run over the two best racing surfaces they have ever had, during one of the most challenging periods the sport has ever seen. Yes, we are going to get a fair amount of ugly weekday cards, and quality drops off markedly in April, but I am very satisfied with GP\'s performance in these tough times.
Now, if you wish to complain about the live set-up ... you have a much better case (though you get entire bleacher sections to yourself at Bel and Aqu, and that\'s not producing the best results).
> Purses?
>
> We all know that Frank Stronach is basically
> downsizing in a controlled
> bankruptcy. There is some fascination to me in
> wondering that if Stronach had not
> been so ambitious in purchasing racetracks a few
> years back, Magna might have been
> able to purchase an entire vehicle brand such as
> Saturn or Hummer, each of which
> I think would have been very viable once spun off
> from GM.
> I am way off subject now.
>
> Best of luck with your selections today, Covel. I
> was giving a brief look to the
> last 4 at GP and the 2 SA stakes races when I was
> called into work today. It
> occurred to me that I could conceivably watch and
> wager from the workplace
> (triple W, baby), but believe it or not I\'ve never
> Triple W\'d before. Never
> having lost on a wager made from the job, I might
> be inclined to keep my record
> intact.
covelj70 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the Sabin Justwhistledixie looks very
> vulnerable. She\'s no faster than several others
> in here, she\'s given up 6 pounds to some of the
> ones that are faster than her to begin with and
> she has to deal with a ship back and forth to the
> west coast for her last race (I do not know what
> Billy was thinking about that race at Santa Anita,
> she has never trained well over the synthetic let
> along dealing with the ship and the synthetic).
>
> Matchless Orinda\'s last was really fast but she
> was coming off a long layoff and so we have to
> presume she had an issue and we know the unsound
> ones are always more dangerous off the long layoff
> before another big effort hurts them again so I
> have to play against her despite the big number.
>
> Jessica is back is the second choice and she looks
> like the clear winner to me in this one.
>
> The Davona Dale is even more interesting as I
> think the very likely winner here is Christine Dae
> and there are so other high profile fillies in
> there in the form of Amen Hallejuah, Bikersons and
> Sassy Image so I think we are going to get a bit
> of a price on her (maybe 5 or 6 to 1) and I think
> everyone\'s going to be talking about this filly
> alot after this race.
>
> IF she\'s 5-1 or more, I am going to make a very
> big play on Christine Dae.
re Christine Daae - tough scratch, as I thought the favorite, Bickersons, was beatable. they scratched the other main speed as well, making Bick look better. can\'t touch this one now.
interesting that they opt for the cheaper 9f race tomorrow, a good looking race.
>
> The Very One is a total cluster of a race. Lady
> Shakespere has a several point advantage on these
> but she\'s parked way outside and we have to assume
> she will lose a ton of ground in a 14 horse field
> going 1 3/8th so I think it makes alot of sense to
> try and play against here. Bella Allure and
> Closeout are both pretty fast and figure to run
> their numbers and both are a price on the ML.
> With 14 horses, we should tread more carefully in
> this one than the other 2 races above but it\'s
> definitely worth taking a stab against LS.
>
> Another great Saturday card at Gulfstream, they
> have really done a terrific job this year putting
> these big cards together. Great, contentious
> fields.
>
> Many of us are vocal in our criticism of alot of
> the tracks but let\'s give a shoutout to GP for
> this season so far.
Thanks Covel. In The Very One, I think Changing Skies at 15-1 will do well thanks to Mott\'s talented training. He has taken a horse which used to vie for the lead into one which can relax and close, which should help today, and make post 11 not a deterrent. And the price will be fair.
Michael D. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Richie, 4 month meets don\'t match top 3 and 6 week
> boutique meets. GP is, however, making a pretty
> good run at Dmr and Sar (tops them at times). If
> they had stuffed the best of 2010 racing into 6
> weeks, the meet would blow away the Sar and Dmr
> products. But quality has always been lacking
> during the week at GP, and turns downright
> dreadful after the Fla Derby. The track is located
> in Hallandale, not a lovely spot for the most part
> (not exactly Del Mar), and doesn\'t match a place
> like Saratoga when it comes to horse tradition. If
> S Fla were destined to have the best racing in the
> US, I would imagine either Crc or Hia would have
> put out a better product over the years.
>
> Truth is, GP is putting out arguably the best
> racing in the history of the track, run over the
> two best racing surfaces they have ever had,
> during one of the most challenging periods the
> sport has ever seen. Yes, we are going to get a
> fair amount of ugly weekday cards, and quality
> drops off markedly in April, but I am very
> satisfied with GP\'s performance in these tough
> times.
Michael:
A very valid point about comparing \"boutique meets\" such as Keeneland and Del Mar
and the ever expanding Saratoga meet to a three or four month stand.
It wasn\'t that long ago however (though possibly slightly before your time) that
whichever Florida track had the prime winter dates (Gulfstream or Hialeah)
arguably put on a race meet which equalled any in the US in terms of quality and
significant races.
One personal memory which I have probably recounted too many times on this site
was 1984. I was working as a gambling groom at Hialeah and got to witness the
mano a mano battle of the 3YO trainers between Woody Stephens (Devil\'s Bag and
Swale) and John Veitch (Dr. Carter). Dr Carter could not seem to get by the
Stephens trained colts; the \"Doctor\" was second to Devils Bag in the Champagne
and Cowdin at Belmont, and third to Swale in the Young America Stakes at the
Meadowlands as a 2YO. As a 3YO Dr Carter finally outfinished Devils Bag in the
Flamingo, but finished second to the Phipps owned/Penna Sr. trained Time For a
Change, and then ran second to Swale in the Florida Derby.
Woody thought the world of Devils Bag, apparently thinking he was invincible, and
put the Devil \"on the fence\" for a sizzling workout each week. (Woody was equally
hard on himself: Each morning at about 5:15, when I was buying breakfast in the
track kitchen (if I could afford it), Woody would breeze in and purchase his
breakfast-- an eight pack of Miller \"ponies\" and a pint of bourbon).
Partially due to Woody\'s brazen training regimen, the Devil did not make it to
the Triple Crown. DB won the Forerunner at Keeneland and the Derby Trial at
Churchill, but then was diagnosed with a fracture and went off to stud
(DB had been syndicated at the conclusion of his 2YO season for a record $36M).
Woody\'s second stringer, Swale, accounted for two legs of the Triple Crown,
sandwiching a seventh place finish in the Preakness with wins in the Derby and
the Belmont. Thats when a sport was a sport.
(Think I saw HRTV is presenting a special on Swale which will likely look into
his untimely death eight days after his Belmont victory).
\"Woody would breeze in and purchase his
breakfast-- an eight pack of Miller \"ponies\" and a pint of bourbon\"
Lol. That\'s great. You must have all kinds of stories from that place.
I loved Hia ... only made it there a few times unfortunately. Not sure it\'s a good example of a sustainable S Fla racing model though.
Great call on Changing Skies.
I am very good friends with Ben Sangster and I am thrilled for him with this victory. He\'s a classy classy man. I like when the good guys get the wins in this game.
Richie,
you will be please to know that I didn\'t bring my 3 year old to Vegas with me this week....I gave him the week off. He was with me on the couch this afternoon at Living Room Downs snapping home some winners but I drew the line at Vegas...I know you were concerned about him so I figured I would pass that along before you called the authorities....lol
Richie,
I am old enough to remember those prime winter date meets and made it there several times each year before wife, kids & business took over life. Those were Great Times !!!
The racing product put out then was far and away the best and all the meaningful Derby preps were in Florida except for the Cali based outfits. I even remember Mel Stute bringing in Snow Chief from Cali to win the Florida Derby in 86 and then sending him back to Cali to Win the Santa Anita Derby.
I will agree with you that Woody worked all his horses hard, he was old school. I also remember Conquistador Cielo winning the Met Mile on Monday setting a track record and the Belmont Stakes by 14 lengths on Saturday in 82. That\'s not a bad week !!!!
They don\'t make\'em like that anymore !!!
FrankD. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richie,
>
> I am old enough to remember those prime winter
> date meets and made it there several times each
> year before wife, kids & business took over life.
> Those were Great Times !!!
>
> The racing product put out then was far and away
> the best and all the meaningful Derby preps were
> in Florida except for the Cali based outfits. I
> even remember Mel Stute bringing in Snow Chief
> from Cali to win the Florida Derby in 86 and then
> sending him back to Cali to Win the Santa Anita
> Derby.
>
> I will agree with you that Woody worked all his
> horses hard, he was old school. I also remember
> Conquistador Cielo winning the Met Mile on Monday
> setting a track record and the Belmont Stakes by
> 14 lengths on Saturday in 82. That\'s not a bad
> week !!!!
>
> They don\'t make\'em like that anymore !!!
Hi Frank,
Since 1970, the only Derby winners to run their all-important final prep in Fla have come in the few years that Stronach has been in charge. A number of horses on the list did, however, race in Fla before moving on to the final preps. GP did well in total Derby starters, but not nearly as well as Kee, and a bit worse than SA. NY obviously scored high on the list, and OP produced a lot of Derby starters over the period. Crc and Hia didn\'t score well at all.
•2008 - Big Brown ... 1st Florida Derby
•2007 - Street Sense ... 2nd Blue Grass
•2006 - Barbaro ... 1st Florida Derby
•2005 - Giacomo ... 4th Santa Anita Derby
•2004 - Smarty Jones ... 1st Arkansas Derby
•2003 - Funny Cide ... 2nd Wood Memorial
•2002 - War Emblem ... 1st Illinois Derby
•2001 - Monarchos ... 2nd Wood Memorial
•2000 - Fusaichi Pegasus ... 1st Wood Memorial
•1999 - Charismatic ... 1st Lexington
•1998 - Real Quiet ... 2nd Santa Anita Derby
•1997 - Silver Charm ... 2nd Santa Anita Derby
•1996 - Grindstone ... 2nd Arkansas Derby
•1995 - Thunder Gulch ... 4th Blue Grass
•1994 - Go for Gin ... 2nd Wood Memorial
•1993 - Sea Hero ... 4th Blue Grass
•1992 - Lil E. Tee ... 2nd Arkansas Derby
•1991 - Strike the Gold ... 1st Bluegrass
•1990 - Unbridled ... 3rd Bluegrass
•1989 - Sunday Silence ... 1st Santa Anita Derby
•1988 - Winning Colors ... 1st Santa Anita Derby
•1987 - Alysheba ... 3rd Bluegrass (won but was disqualified to 3rd)
•1986 - Ferdinand ... 3rd Santa Anita Derby
•1985 - Spend a Buck ... 1st Garden State
•1984 - Swale ... 2nd Lexington
•1983 - Sunny\'s Halo ... 1st Arkansas Derby
•1982 - Gato Del Sol ... 2nd Bluegrass
•1981 - Pleasant Colony ... 1st Wood Memorial
•1980 - Genuine Risk ... 3rd Wood Memorial
•1979 - Spectacular Bid ... 1st Bluegrass
•1978 - Affirmed ... 1st Hollywood Derby
•1977 - Seattle Slew ... 1st Wood Memorial
•1976 - Bold Forbes ... 1st Wood Memorial
•1975 - Foolish Pleasure ... 1st Wood Memorial
•1974 - Cannonade ... 1st CD allowance race
•1973 - Secretariat ... 3rd Wood Memorial
•1972 - Riva Ridge ... 1st Blue Grass
•1971 - Canonero II ... 3rd race in Venezuela
•1970 - Dust Commander ... 1st Blue Grass
M.D.
Great post and research although lacking in a bit of relevant history ?
The last real race meet run at Hialeah was 1986 and it had been in rapid decline for the previous 5 years. I can\'t even imagine what the ride from I-95 to the track is like theses days ? Calder or Tropical Park was never a player in the Derby or Triple Crown preps.
The time Richie referenced and I responded to goes back to the 20\'s. I know I\'m not that old and will assume Richie Bee isn\'t either.
Before Aqueduct had an inner dirt track they closed for 6 or 7 weeks from Christmas time until Presidents Day. It wasn\'t even known as Presidents Day then as both Washington\'s and Lincoln\'s birthdays were individual holidays.
In those days all the big outfits from the mid-west and east coast wintered in Florida, very few went to Fair Grounds or Oaklawn. Before 1982 and Sunny\'s Halo you won\'t find many that prepped in Arkansas.
Go back 60 years from 1986 and I\'m sure you\'ll find some different stats.
Those stats are right, of course - but a bit misleading. One thing Stronach did was move up the date of the FD so that it could be a final prep. Recall that Monarchos won the FD, and then went on to the wood, which was a pretty common transition. So, most of the Gulf runners would have at least one out of state prep before the derby - at least until recently.
The move has probably increased the profile of the FD, with Barbaro, Big Brown, and Quality Road being favored or close to it, going in to the Derby off a win there. Might well continue with Eskendereya this year. Don\'t like the 6 weeks, though.
FrankD. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> M.D.
>
> Great post and research although lacking in a bit
> of relevant history ?
>
> The last real race meet run at Hialeah was 1986
> and it had been in rapid decline for the previous
> 5 years. I can\'t even imagine what the ride from
> I-95 to the track is like theses days ? Calder or
> Tropical Park was never a player in the Derby or
> Triple Crown preps.
>
> The time Richie referenced and I responded to goes
> back to the 20\'s. I know I\'m not that old and will
> assume Richie Bee isn\'t either.
>
> Before Aqueduct had an inner dirt track they
> closed for 6 or 7 weeks from Christmas time until
> Presidents Day. It wasn\'t even known as Presidents
> Day then as both Washington\'s and Lincoln\'s
> birthdays were individual holidays.
>
> In those days all the big outfits from the
> mid-west and east coast wintered in Florida, very
> few went to Fair Grounds or Oaklawn. Before 1982
> and Sunny\'s Halo you won\'t find many that prepped
> in Arkansas.
>
> Go back 60 years from 1986 and I\'m sure you\'ll
> find some different stats.
Richie referenced 1984, and you referenced 1982 and 86. The 1970 to the present time-frame was perfectly logical.
Frank, Florida has always been a big spot for the winter/spring 3 yr olds. Nobody disputes that. I just think your statement \"all the meaningful Derby preps were in Florida except for the Cali based outfits\" is not accurate.
ajkreider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those stats are right, of course - but a bit
> misleading. One thing Stronach did was move up
> the date of the FD so that it could be a final
> prep. Recall that Monarchos won the FD, and then
> went on to the wood, which was a pretty common
> transition. So, most of the Gulf runners would
> have at least one out of state prep before the
> derby - at least until recently.
>
> The move has probably increased the profile of the
> FD, with Barbaro, Big Brown, and Quality Road
> being favored or close to it, going in to the
> Derby off a win there. Might well continue with
> Eskendereya this year. Don\'t like the 6 weeks,
> though.
Thanks for the response.
Not misleading at all. The point being that when the Fla Derby was not the final prep, other preps had huge roles. Florida was not where all the meaningful preps took place. That\'s all.
M.D.
I\'ll definitely take back the \" all \" !!!
This was not meant to be an arguement.
My point was just in response to Richie\'s post of remembering the alternating 40 day race meets that Hialeah & Gulfstream ran for many years prior to 83 or 84. As Hialeah\'s area declined the last 2 or 3 years the prime early dates were awarded to Gulfstream as opposed to alternating. For many years Hialeah ahd those dates exclusively back in the day !
One would run the first week of January until the first week of March. The other from the first week in March into May. So one year the Florida Derby was in February, the next in late March or the first week of April and visa versa with the Flamingo.
During that time the prime first 40 day meet was as good as any meet in the country. Most serious 3 year olds started their campaigns there. You looked for the winner of the Hopeful or Champagne to run in the Hutchinson or Fountain of Youth at Gulfstream or the Bahamas or Everglades at Hialeah.
Of course many used the Wood or Bluegrass as there final tune up for the first Saturday in May. Let\'s not forget that conventional training method of that time being 3-5 preps before the Derby as opposed to less these days ?