Anybody have any insights into why their horses are running these dynamite races off layoffs? I know they have great stock, but they are not missing with any of them. It will be interesting to see what happens in their follow-up races. Who gets the credit. is it Mettee or the main stable trainer?
Its the springs ... Saratoga Springs ... The Spaaaaaaa ... long known for the recuperative powers of the water ... Seriously one reason is GTC. Greentree Training Center. You may have seen the workout designation in the form. Right next to the track, it is a state of the art facility. Metee and others have said the horses are doing much better there. Turnout paddocks and plenty of space to graze. Makes for a happy horse ... And also some credit must go to \"trainer in training\" The Mig. Has been working most of their horses and Kiaran and Rick have given him a lot of credit. And kudos to them for paying him in very live mounts.
Not for nuthin\', but I would love to know if they changed vets somewhere around late June early July. When the horses first left Albertrani they were all running like they were poisoned. They all of them started running well.
I\'m sure its just good old fashioned training...oh and the turnout paddocks. Please people.
Total aside here.
I don\'t think GTC has alot to do with why they are running well but that is one unreal facility.
A buddy of mine took me back there when I was up at the spa and it\'s absolutely insane. Most lavish facility I have ever seen (including humans living quarters).
There\'s a full sister to Bernadini that was training there all summer as well. 2 year old. Have to admit it was very cool being around that kind of stock.
super derby 2
case in point was the best horse on paper ran wonderful most likely to his number or a little better. was the most likely winner that was a big surprise?
These are not your typical horses coming off layoffs ... They are stakes quality animals and if memory serves me correctly, most ran very well in their debuts so they had a license to run well off the bench. VH was surprising in the Kings Bishop, however people are still talking about how good he looked in the paddock. Still 2nd time Kiaran or 1st time bin soour is a very potent angle ... and the vet ...
TGJB Wrote:
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> Not for nuthin\', but I would love to know if they
> changed vets somewhere around late June early
> July. When the horses first left Albertrani they
> were all running like they were poisoned. They all
> of them started running well.
I don\'t know if anyone has the stats but I believe every year around this time of year Godolphin and Darley horses run well compared to the rest of the year.
That is just from my memory.
Lost,
No stats either but Bin Suroor is always ice cold or red hot it seems. Considering what Sheik MO has spent on racing stock and the results achieved, this venture is a financial disaster in a pure business sense.
Mike
Miff-- that ice cold or red hot thing is exactly why I raise the issue of the vet. He\'s not the only one-- Contessa was that way for a couple of years, could probably sit down and make a list of others.
Now, if we had a vet of record listed on the program...
That was a recommendation of mine that the Jockey Club did NOT act on. It\'s a little tricky, but it could be done.
Barry Irwin had an interesting idea a few years ago as well-- don\'t allow anyone on the grounds with any medications. They have to buy everything from a pharmacy on the backside.
TGJB Wrote:
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> Barry Irwin had an interesting idea a few years
> ago as well-- don\'t allow anyone on the grounds
> with any medications. They have to buy everything
> from a pharmacy on the backside.
They\'d have to tighten the hell out of security for this to work.
When we went to Saratoga last month, we literally turned off of Union and parked the car -- no checkpoint, no security -- then walked into the barn area unchecked.
My buddy has an owner\'s license, but he was never asked for it. We stopped and talked to Baffert by Terranova\'s stalls, then moved on to Dutrow\'s barn. We had breakfast in the track kitchen. Not a word from anyone.
I was astonished at how easy it was. I think I could have hand-trucked a 55 gallon drum of M99 in if I wanted to.
Maybe it was just a fluke -- something strange that day, perhaps, or security recognized my buddy and decided we were OK. But if that\'s way things normally operate at racetracks, the overall integrity of racing is for shit, IMO.
JB,
They wont: list vets,procedures since last start,give updates on track maintenance, tell you where and how much the big pick six tickets were bought and lots of other stuff.Go ask an official about these things and they look at you as if you were from f--king Mars.
Clueless!
Mike
FYI
The full sister to Bernardini is a filly by the name of Kind Words. Didn\'t pick up her feet in her first outing:
DRF Chart (http://www.drf.com/drfNCWeeklyHorseDisplay.do?track=SAR&country=USA&raceDate=20090906&raceNo=2)
Bernardini never even made it to the races at 2. Ran an \'11\' first out at 3. Cara Rafaela was a good 2 yr old, but her foals are not running early. She has produced three good ones - one of the others had a \'21\' top at 2, and the other didn\'t race until he was 4. Will be interesting to see how Kind Words develops.
Were any of these Godolphin eyebrow raisers on the turf?
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Rick,
unfortunately you\'re not far off the mark.Several years back a trainer i know
and was previously employed with was running a horse in the garden state stakes and i decided
to drive up and catch the race.just rolled through the backside gate
and went straight to the detention barn, walked over to the horses stall and started chatting with the groom.not a peep from anyone.funny thing was,here we have 100 million in racetrack and some serious stock on the grounds and i\'m having
my run of the place with an expired racing license and decked out in my phillips
66 uniform.just didn\'t figure.
I don\'t doubt your stories, but I\'ve been an owner for 25 years and never got backstretch at ANY track that easily. In fact, I often get hassled whenever I show up at a stable gate...if not for my license, then it\'s for my hanging car tag...or lack thereof.
I don\'t doubt you either,but I don\'t understand your point.
I didn\'t spice my story up, not one little bit -- promise.
Part of me was relieved that we didn\'t have to go through all of the B.S. that would have been necessary to get unlicensed people on the backstretch...but I was equally alarmed at the ease of entry / access. I was 5 feet away from two different horses that went on to win stakes a few days later -- what if I had malice on my mind? How easy would it have been to toss some illegal crap into a stall and generate a positive for a guy I don\'t like?
(Me? Never, EVER -- even if the trainer was Osama bin Laden, I couldn\'t do that to a horse. But the mind boggles at the possibilities, esp. when there are so many out there that hate and / or are jealous of Dutrow, Asmussen, et. al.)
Granted, it\'s Saratoga: it\'s more relaxed, more open, more \"friendly\". Maybe it\'s not supposed to be as \"locked down\" as other tracks. Maybe my experience is the wild exception. I sure hope so.
ditto on the spice level.looking back so true how easy the malcontent could
have accessed the premises.somewhat naive to it all,at the time i\'m sure i didn\'t
feel your alarm,but in retospect the ease at which it was accomplished is quite
alarming.still can\'t figure SAB running so well after the repeated shin kickings.
Josephus Wrote:
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> Anybody have any insights into why their horses
> are running these dynamite races off layoffs? I
> know they have great stock, but they are not
> missing with any of them. It will be interesting
> to see what happens in their follow-up races. Who
> gets the credit. is it Mettee or the main stable
> trainer?
As to the follow up races Josephus mentioned, how about Gayego and Giralamo?
I thought it interesting that Josephus\'s post on 9/22 started a string which
gave birth not surprisingly to some of the expected innuendo which arises when
a barn suddenly gets piping hot. I bit my tongue.
Godolphin pays top dollar for horses of racing age. I would imagine they are
given every advantage of equine management that money can buy, which includes
the Greentree Training Center outside of the Saratoga Race Course. The
Godolphin trainers, bin Suroor and Mettee, and their \"feeder\" trainers,
Albertrani and Kiaran McLaughlin, have not accumulated positives at an alarming
rate.
Is the Godolphin operation \"above suspicion\"? What fun would that be.
No one as hot as the TAPper right now, winning with all kinds of horses at Oak
Tree, Keeneland and Belmont. Cue the innuendo in 3..2..1...
Richie-- exactly (TAP). The point is that when an entire barn wakes up at the same time, it\'s not a coincidence.
For BC bettors, the most important thing that happened this past weekend is that Gayego ran big in California. It\'s worth noting that Music Note and Cocoa Beach also ran well out there last year. Look out.
JB,
how do you reconcile the Gayego move with the stringent tests in Cali?
thanks
> Anybody have any insights into why their horses
> are running these dynamite races off layoffs?
I\'d say it\'s because they have made a stable management decision change, and decided to fully utilize the benefits of layoff and rehab (and they have the world-class facilities to do so); realizing that it\'s financially and strategically better to train them into firing first time, rather than racing them into shape (race placement-qualifiers working towards big races, rate of $$ return per race)
Well, there are two obvious possibilities-- that they are not using anything, or that they are using something that is not being tested for. Same applied to Sadler until recently, now hard to tell.
By the way, Godolphin has always been a good layoff outfit. The difference now is that when they run their tops, their tops are faster. And they don\'t bounce.
JB
final question from me and then I will move onto to next topic...
...do you know if the testing for the BC is going to be any different from any other day in Cali?
I know there was all the noise about the trainers hearing about different tests on the night before the Derby and certain trainers raising a stink.
Can we expect something like this for the BC or is it going to be testing as normal in Cali for that day?
thanks
Don\'t know about special testing, they might have said something about that. Cal testing is pretty good, some chance \"special\" testing would make it worse if someone else did it.
\"Richie-- exactly (TAP). The point is that when an entire barn wakes up at the same time, it\'s not a coincidence.\"
I agree that sometimes a whole barn can get suspiciously hot, but I think just as often there are very logical and even predictable reasons for these fluctuations.
Linda Rice was on fire at Saratoga. Now she\'s not doing so well.
It looked to me like a lot of her horses were primed for peak efforts at Saratoga, she found a lot of good spots to run them in, and had a little racing luck. Now those same horses are already through a few conditions and are running against tougher competition, there are fewer grass sprints being carded, and some of her horses are over the top. I think the Belmont decline was very predictable and have been betting accordingly.
Pletcher often has a barn full of young tigers. If for some reason many didn\'t get to the track 100% to start the year, then it would be no shock to see many of them explode forward in their next few starts as they all peaked at the same time. The same would be true of Godolphin.
If memory serves me, Dutrow didn\'t do so well at Saratoga (can\'t really recall). But now he\'s on fire again and moving horses up off his patented two month layoff! I can\'t and won\'t argue that Tricky is playing by the rule book. But again, I think it was somewhat predictable that his barn would turn around
at Belmont.
Aside from randomness contributing to wins and peak figures, I think horses and sometimes even whole barns are subject to somewhat predictable booms and busts because of form cycles, type of stock, horses moving up and down the class ladder, and race conditions. In fact, I think the nature of the game is that peaks and valleys in a single barn are more likely than a more consistent performance.
It isn\'t always drugs (just sometimes).
You are confusing winning races with running fast figures. Good spots and racing luck don\'t affect figures.
I understand your point and agree.
Though IMO they are related. Experience suggests to me that horses tend to run their best figures when they are spotted properly and not outrun because they are overmatched. If a barn is dropping all its horses into appropriate spots, they will all start running better and faster. Once they win and are forced to move back up they will all tail off again (including figure wise).
Form cycle also plays a huge part in this and can impact an entire barn.
Let\'s say a trainer has a whole string of young high quality horses in a specific location and they all get sick and miss a couple of weeks. He\'s not going to change all his long term plans unless it was a disaster. He\'s still going to ship the horses to wherever he intended. The only difference is that they will all probably be less than 100% in their first couple of starts. Then they will all peak around the same time in their 2nd or 3rd start off a layoff. The same would be true if a bunch missed some training due to bad weather. I\'ve seen this pattern dozens of times with many different trainers of high quality stock like Pletcher and Godolphin. You also see it sometimes with first time starters and second time starters. One year a trainer is winning everything with his first time starters and the next year they are all short a race or two.
More interesting to me is when a trainer moves up an older horse than has been in the hands of other competent trainers.
\"More interesting to me is when a trainer moves up an older horse than has been in the hands of other competent trainers\"
Cart,
Not a move up, but Court Vision went from Bill Mott to Tricky recently. Tricky did not like something about the way CV was going in the am.Had vets probe around to find the problem, they did. CV won his first start for Tricky, the horse was not winning for Mott.I do not think the TG fig for CV will be out of line though.Strange stuff happens in racing all the time.Tricky not 80% the horseman of a Bill Mott,go figure!
Mike
Miff,
very ironic that you said tricky isn\'t 80% of the horseman of Mott. I agree with you but I happened to be in Dutrow\'s barn this morning and one of the agents who was there said, \"Mott\'s just not the horseman that Rick is\"
I can\'t make this up, swear to god. Very ironic post given what I heard this AM
The more I think about this...one of the best suggestions I\'ve heard/read is that they should publish the vet\'s name in the program.
How does this work exactly? Does each stable have a vet or does each individual horse have a vet? Excuse silly questions...I really don\'t know how this works...but if they can agree on how to list vets...this would be a big step in the right direction since it would move these guys out of the shadows.
You know when you\'re on a phone call arguing with someone about a service they provided? And you get to the point of the phone call where you say \"and what is YOUR NAME?\" That usually changes the whole tone of the conversation. Probably this simple logic applies here as well...
HP
Covel:
William Ichabod Mott -- already inducted into Racing\'s Hall of Fame.
Richard Tricky Dutrow -- not likely to be inducted to Racing\'s Hall of Fame
(unless maybe Iavarone donates an addition to the building).
Willaim Ichabod Mott -- pretty much a spotless slate with regards to fines and
suspensions.
Richard Tricky Dutrow -- over 70 documented fines and suspensions, a number which
would be considerably higher if it were not for the fact that Tricky was excluded
from participating in Racing for 5 years for personal drug problems.
William Ichabod Mott -- has probably been a leading trainer at more than 10
different race meets in various locations.
Richard Tricky Dutrow -- been a leading trainer in NY.
Bottom line -- give WI Mott and Tricky the same horseflesh and eliminate any
alleged/purported pharmaceutical edge, who has more success?
The same agent you quoted, when standing in Mott\'s barn, might have been heard to
say that Tricky is nowhere near the trainer that Mott is.
Cov,
Tricky\'s stats are great pretty much across the board, Mott\'s more in and out past few years.
Mott also lost Zayat Stable which may be more a clash of personalities rather than an issue of horsemanship.
Despite having said what I did about horsemanship re Dutrow vs Mott,I recently recommended Tricky to a friend with some very expensive horses.He went with Tricky and they already won a few stakes.It\'s all great babe!
Mike
QuoteHow does this work exactly? Does each stable have a vet or does each individual horse have a vet?
No, stables nearly always do not have one vet. They have several. Stables use different vets for different things: sickness vet, lameness vet, farm vet, vet in the morning to give lasix for works, etc.
That\'s why \"listing the vet\" is absurd. There is rarely one vet following and responsible for a horse. Or a barn.
Nor can a vet be responsible for the 99.9999999% of the time he isn\'t caring for the horse. You can\'t even be sure the trainer will give meds as you\'ve prescribed.
Seriously - we need to get alot of you guys on the backstretch several mornings, to see how vets work day in and day out.
They don\'t pull up to a barn in a white Mercedes carrying a syringe of magical moveup juice.
Miff,
It was the highlight of my day when Babe called me Babe.
I know he calls everyone babe but I am telling you, I think he really meant it when he was talking to me :)