Hard to get too excited about these Zenyatta walkovers.
Grand looking animal has been more gingerly handled than the Bubble Boy.
Will trounce this group of non-next out winners and I may fall asleep before the race is even run.
Or even worse, start watching preseason football which will really put me asleep
Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hard to get too excited about these Zenyatta
> walkovers.
>
> Grand looking animal has been more gingerly
> handled than the Bubble Boy.
>
> Will trounce this group of non-next out winners
> and I may fall asleep before the race is even run.
>
>
> Or even worse, start watching preseason football
> which will really put me asleep
As for falling asleep, thats what a lot of us do after reading 20 posts a day from you. You are the Seinfeld of this room, a lot of nothing.
There are a lot of fans that really don\'t care what you think. Check that, most fans don\'t care what you think about her. The thousands of fans that showed up to watch her don\'t care either. The standing room only paddock crowd doesn\'t care. This mare excites a lot of people, and brings them out to the track.
You and others have posted AD NAUSEUM about her schedule. You all are entitled to your opinion. And yes, I would like to see her races be a bit more challenging than running against the same horses that she keeps on defeating. I have stated that on this forum several times. And as of today, Rachel is a slam dunk HOY. She is nothing short of spectacular and is one for the ages. Be that as it may, Zenyatta is undefeated, she has won outside of California, defeated a division champion in Ginger Punch - on dirt, out of state - and is a BC and eclipse award winning horse. Pretty impressive anyway you slice it.
If there comes a day for her to lose a race, I\'m sure we\'ll have 1,000 posts, 500 written by you, telling us all how she is nothing but a fraud. Its too bad that instead of yet another cynical post you just can\'t appreciate her talents.
And for all you Smith bashers, at least he doesn\'t wag his finger at the crowd and act like an idiot like Borel does. Borel wags his finger, points at her, raises his hands to the sky, and generally yucks it up from the 1/16 pole until she\'s unsaddled. All class. Now obviously, today wasn\'t a race where you celebrate at the 1/16 pole. But show me a race where Smith acts like a schoolkid that just got his first feel-up. Doesn\'t happen.
You must be a lot of fun to hang around. Geez, what a buzzkill.
P-Dub thanks.
I fell asleep, missed the race, and did not know if she had won. I will catch the replay in four to six weeks.
even if I do not see yesterdays race.........
Great post P-Dub<
I\'m willing to bet Silver Charm is your average $2 better. He always feels the need to vent, about positive things.
P-Dub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And for all you Smith bashers
Interesting pre-emptive strike.
I\'m neutral on Smith. Certainly seems to have a tendency to go wide, but he wins enough with that move that I believe it offsets the number of times he might have gone inside only to get jammed up waiting for room. Six of one kind, half-dozen of another, from where I sit.
But he sure did make what should have been a rather boring affair pretty interesting yesterday, didn\'t he? Won by a short head, about a foot at ~35 mph -- what\'s that, about 2/100ths of a second? That no ordinary clock in Smith\'s head.
$180,000.00 more in the bank
her lifetime earnings are?
who would want to own this cash cow. great job of keeping the ball rolling.
You said it all P-Dub. . .if someone can find a way to knock anything about Zenyatta, they should find another hobby! She\'s simply amazing. I do wish the Breeder\'s Cup were hosted on a dirt track so she could face Rachel, but such is life. I say enjoy every moment of both super stars b/c they don\'t come around too often!
Oh boy, hard to believe a nose win over slow plodders is generating so much gushing for Zenyatta.
P-Dub and other west coast biased posters,
She is a very nice filly. She has a lot of heart and is very consistent. She deserves credit for digging down and pulling out another win. This is not the first time she has looked beaten and gotten up late. Kudos to her.
But she is not brilliant and not spectacular and not worth mentioning in the same breath as Rachel or Ruffian or other truly great fillies. She is just not. All the talk and support from the left coasters can roll in, but would anybody even take 5-1 on this filly in a match race on dirt with RAchel? Ok, forget about a match race, make it a race with 7 other fillies including a speed horse or two to keep Rachel busy on the front end? Any takers for Zenyatta?
Yesterday\'s race actually makes me take back some of my criticism of Shirreffs and the connections. They may know she just isn\'t that good and they need to manage her schedule like this. She wins by a nose over those horses yesterday at equal weights? Maybe they should retire her now and keep the record intact. I think Shirreffs knows what he has and that is why he won\'t leave California and wants to race in races like the Clement Hirsch. And Jess Jackson knows what he has, which is why Rachel has raced in the Preakness and Haskell and now contemplates the Woodward, Travers or other monster races.
Jimbo,
I said the exact same thing about Sherrifs last night to the people I was watching the race with.
He\'s no dummy. She\'s really good but not in the same league as RA and if they face one another, she would get embarrased and ruin the image they have built up for her.
I am a big fan of hers. Whatever generates more interest for the game, I am a big fan of and clearly she\'s a great great filly but evening mentioning her in the same breath as RA is silly and her connections understand this which is why they have plotted the course they have plotted which will clearly exclude RA.
I\'m pretty sure there isn\'t another filly in North America that could have won that race with her trip. She ran her last 5/16ths in 28.48, part of which was spent swinging out wide because of all her momentum on the turn. This is a very special filly and I have to repsectfully say that IMO anyone that can\'t see that doesn\'t know much about measuring a horse\'s ability. Sure, with her style she would be extremely vulnerable on dirt, but she\'s still a freak. I\'d love to see her on turf because I think she\'d be a freak on that surface too.
Cartman,
I agree with your Zenyatta race analysis. It was a terrible setup for her without any pace and her last 5/16\'s was extremely fast. This is a spectacular mare without any reservations or conditions.
Frank
Is this thread even worth pursuing??? Do you buy the freaking T-G sheets??? She\'s run 7 negative numbers in the last two years and five in a row (all in route races)! I\'d wager there is not another horse in the country including the great Rachel who\'s done that! 12 for 12, 6 grade I\'s, beat the Champion last year (Ginger Punch -on dirt by 7 lengths). No horse EVER looks brillant on plastic tracks! If she ran on dirt, she\'d run even faster. West Coast Bias??? What the hell are you smoking???? If there was a fair pace in the race, she and Rachel would likely put on a tremendous show.
Jimbo
Once again your disdain for Zenyatta or perhaps left coast racing is clouding your judgement and leading to untruths in your posts.
First, she gave weight to the runnerup, about a point or so on the TG scale.
Second, she has left California and her explosion in the Apple Blossom off a three month layoff is one of the all-time fastest races run by a filly or mare and she had plenty more to give. Additionally, she shipped to Churchill this May but scratched because of the lousy surface.
The Hirsch has been run for forty years (39) and now \"Z\" is only the second mare to win it twice. (Azeri)
Lastly, a case can be made that Zenyatta is better on dirt and as good as Rachel is she would have her hands full with this five year old beast. \"Z\" was clocked at forty miles an hour at the finish line yesterday and would roll past Rachel at eight or nine furlongs given a decent surface and honest pace. BBB
She could very well be better on dirt! That Apple Blossom race was won w/her cantering at the end, and the last 1/16th in about 6 seconds! I would honestly say she\'s one of perhaps the 10 greatest race horses of all time (including all sexes). Honestly, anyone who can watch her and not be completely blown away really should take up craps or slot machines or something b/c this is the wrong game for you. I think Rachel could be as great as Zen, but in my mind she isn\'t yet. Hell, I\'d like to see her beat Quality Road. You must remember for all the talk about Zen\'s weak foes, the crop of 3 year old\'s Rachel decimated are pathetic.The Haskell was like a 50k claiming race. C\'mom, just be fair, guys.
Everybody calm down.
First of all, saying Zenyatta doesn\'t compare to Rachel (and she doesn\'t) is like saying Pujols isn\'t Babe Ruth-- big deal, who is. Doesn\'t mean Pujols ain\'t great.
Whether you go by ability (figures) or accomplishment, Rachel is in territory all her own, arguably ever. That\'s no reflection on Zenyatta.
The MANAGEMENT of Zenyatta is another matter, and we can have a negative opinion of that without having one of the mare.
Z ran 5 lengths longer than the 2nd and 3rd place finishers (spotting both 4 lbs), and ran a :05.65 final 1/16 while averaging 40 mph. Zenyatta was brilliant when she needed to be. A strong performance imo.
Z\'s performance yesterday was her best lifetime effort imo. She was hopelessly beaten with 20 yards to go and just found some kind of gear to get up to win. For a horse that big to be able to accelerate at the end of her race in that fashion was breathtaking, she just refused to lose. Is she as good as Rachel? Of course not, no one who really knows this game is pretending she is, but she\'s a fantastic plastic running daughter of a gun and that\'s good enough for me.
rachel has beaten, gabby\'s golden gal and flashing by 30 lengths respectively, and they both came back to win grade wins....didn\'t she also beat take the points and he came back to win a grade 1 this weekend also....oops....zenyatta scratched out of churchill on the same card that rachel won the oaks....cmon be fair dana.....
Rick B. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And for all you Smith bashers
>
> Interesting pre-emptive strike.
>
> I\'m neutral on Smith. Certainly seems to have a
> tendency to go wide, but he wins enough with that
> move that I believe it offsets the number of times
> he might have gone inside only to get jammed up
> waiting for room. Six of one kind, half-dozen of
> another, from where I sit.
>
> But he sure did make what should have been a
> rather boring affair pretty interesting yesterday,
> didn\'t he? Won by a short head, about a foot at
> ~35 mph -- what\'s that, about 2/100ths of a
> second? That no ordinary clock in Smith\'s head.
Rick,
Wasn\'t trying to answer before the Smith bashing. Just stating the difference between a jockey who has been there before, and one who is experiencing his first real taste of national attention/success.
I doubt Smith acted that way when he first became successful. Its no different than these clowns that stare at home runs, or celebrate every tackle/catch/ first down, TD in football.
Some have class, some don\'t.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everybody calm down.
>
> First of all, saying Zenyatta doesn\'t compare to
> Rachel (and she doesn\'t) is like saying Pujols
> isn\'t Babe Ruth-- big deal, who is. Doesn\'t mean
> Pujols ain\'t great.
>
> Whether you go by ability (figures) or
> accomplishment, Rachel is in territory all her
> own, arguably ever. That\'s no reflection on
> Zenyatta.
>
> The MANAGEMENT of Zenyatta is another matter, and
> we can have a negative opinion of that without
> having one of the mare.
I thought I would wake up and see 10 posts calling ME the idiot. (I\'m sure some may still think so).
Many of you have made great statements about Zenyatta. I won\'t repeat them, but they ACCURATELY portray her as being better than some want to give heer credit for.
Jimbo, I have a lot of respect for you but your post just isn\'t very accurate. Addressing us as \"West Coast\" biased is completely offbase. There have been people from all over the country on this board talking about her accomplishments. And when you use \"West Coast bias\", you immediately come off as being \"Left Coast biased\". Leave that stuff out, and just give us our opinion. We\'ve disagreed before, we will again. Where we live has little to do with it.
Covel,
Your remarks are equally silly, the ones that were similar to Jimbo\'s. \"They know what they have and don\'t want to be embarassed.\" For 2 of the more interesting and intelligent people to post that is disappointing.
5-1 on Zenyatta in that race?? There will be many. Its better than 6/5 on MTB in the Belmont that I had the opportunity to book per Mr. MGM Suites.
Great comment from JB regarding the distinction between the horse and the management of her. They are 2 entirely different things. Its as if by supporting Zenyatta you are somehow dismissing Rachel. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Can\'t we just enjoy the fact that the 2 most interesting and fascinating horses this year happen to be females? No wonder racing can\'t attract any new fans, the ones we have are constantly bashing horses that should be held up as an example of why people should be attracted to this game.
P-Dub Wrote:
> Some have class, some don\'t.
I don\'t get it..Why does Calvin have to sit still in the saddle and not be happy that he is riding a superstar. He hoots and hollers becuase this horse is exciting. When he got to the finish line at Mth and pointed at the crowd a ton of people were pointing back including myself and they were loving it. Why is that classless?
>Great comment from JB regarding the distinction between the horse and the management of her. They are 2 entirely different things.
P-Dub go back and read my original post.
Tim Tebow and Florida vs Yale doesn\'t get my TV remote to stop clicking around, or to to be turned off along with the lights entirely. Give me a game I stay up at nights waiting for and thinking about.
Zenyatta has yet to play one this year as far as I am concerned. And if Tebow and Florida played Yale every week I wouldn\'t watch that either no matter if \"Tebow is one of the greatest of all time and we are lucky to be watching him.\"
Beat up on Yale...........
Lost Cause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub Wrote:
>
> > Some have class, some don\'t.
>
>
> I don\'t get it..Why does Calvin have to sit still
> in the saddle and not be happy that he is riding a
> superstar. He hoots and hollers becuase this
> horse is exciting. When he got to the finish line
> at Mth and pointed at the crowd a ton of people
> were pointing back including myself and they were
> loving it. Why is that classless?
I\'m not talking about the winner\'s circle.
I\'m talking about the actual running of the race, where at the 1/16 pole or shortly thereafter he\'s pointing and waving and slapping BEFORE the race is over.
But can the guy save all of that for the post race gallop back to the winner\'s circle, instead of doing it DURING the race? Thats it.
Rachel hasn\'t exactly beaten a who\'s who of racing greats. A 4 horse Mother Goose, a weak Haskell field. The 3YO colts she has beaten aren\'t that stellar. BUt her wins have been spectacular.
Having said that, she has done more than Zenyatta this year.
Lousy analogy.
Go back to sleep.
P-Dub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>5-1 on Zenyatta in that race??
> Can\'t we just enjoy the fact that the 2 most
> interesting and fascinating horses this year
> happen to be females? No wonder racing can\'t
> attract any new fans, the ones we have are
> constantly bashing horses that should be held up
> as an example of why people should be attracted to
> this game.
Couldn\'t agree with you more P-Dub. Sit back and enjoy and hope they meet up somewhere. Zenyatta is a great racehorse who I have no doubt would be equally great on dirt.
I would empty the bankroll at 5/1 on that horse if there was another speed to keep Rachel company at 1 1/8 or longer.
Hey I slept 11 hours last night.
At least Sherriffs can claim he may have a cure for insomnia with his handling....
Then I hope she races every day, if that will keep you asleep and stop the Zenyatta bashing.
When Zenyatta is running Silver is asleep, but the rest of the time he\'s posting like the Energizer Bunny. How many ways can he say the same thing? As the kids today say, OMG.
I thought P-Dub put him down early in this thread with that hysterical post but he keeps coming back for more.
Honestly, the people who own and train Zenyatta are doing what they think is in the best interests of them and their horse. If they pushed and matched her up with the boys or travelled or whatever and she got hurt they\'d rake them over the coals for that too. Talk to Larry Jones. And please talk to him someplace else and give this subject a rest over here already for Christ\'s sake.
Everything has already been said twice about this on this board. They are doing the plastic thing. It\'s not a scenario anyone should have had a problem envisioning when all the plastic tracks started in the first place. Case closed.
HP
P-Dub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lost Cause Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> I\'m not talking about the winner\'s circle.
>
> I\'m talking about the actual running of the race,
> where at the 1/16 pole or shortly thereafter he\'s
> pointing and waving and slapping BEFORE the race
> is over.
>
> But can the guy save all of that for the post race
> gallop back to the winner\'s circle, instead of
> doing it DURING the race? Thats it.
I am also talking about during the race..He is not trying to demean the other horses in there. He is just happy as hell..and believe me when I tell you there are a lot of people that love it when he is pointing and showing the #1 sign during that final hundred yards...
Lost - if YOU were in the middle of a race against ME and I was winning by a block and before I got to the finish line I started celebrating and waving to the crowd you wouldn\'t find that insulting? Doesn\'t make any difference if we\'re on horses, does it? The fact that \"lots of people love it\" doesn\'t make it good.
HP
HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lost - if YOU were in the middle of a race against
> ME and I was winning by a block and before I got
> to the finish line I started celebrating and
> waving to the crowd you wouldn\'t find that
> insulting? Doesn\'t make any difference if we\'re
> on horses, does it? The fact that \"lots of people
> love it\" doesn\'t make it good.
>
> HP
Not really, I see what you\'re both saying and I understand the whole good sprtsmanship thing but it does not apply here, it\'s not like he\'s pointing at the horses behind him and giving them the finger or saying hah..you suck..he is pointing at his horse and saying this is the #1 horse..
Lost,
Its still lame. What would you think if every jockey started doing this??
Everybody thought T.O.\'s sharpie thing was cute. Now every clown in the league does some idiotic endzone clebration. Chad Ocho has taken it to ridiculous levels. Its now common for people to celebrate 1st downs, tackles for a 4 yd gain, slam dunks when down by 10, and stare at a HR when down by 5.
We can see she\'s special, and we can see others that are great. We don\'t need these guys yucking it up during the race. This goofball takes it a whole new level.Its ridiculous.
\"... if there was another speed to keep Rachel company at 1 1/8 or longer.\"
That\'s a pretty big if at this point, eh Lost?
Actually Zenyatta got her last 5/16th\'s in 28.28.
She was motoring home.Physically impossible for her to win by more than she did considering the pace and her position after 6f\'s.I guess Smith was comfortable being only two lengths back of Life Is Sweet-figuring that was his only competition.Still,Zenyatta outkicked that one by 6+ lengths thru the final 5/16ths.Awesome late run when she hits top gear.
If fast horses like Munnings and Big Drama couldn\'t keep her busy enough front to set her up for Classic distance winners like Mine That Bird and Summer Bird, I would like you to name the filly in training that could step into that role.
magicnight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> That\'s a pretty big if at this point, eh Lost?
Gigantic If actually..
Don\'t get me wrong..I was looking at it from a betting standpoint with hypothetical 5/1 odds on Zenyatta and a horse to keep Rachel company. If they were both 1/1 in a match race I take Rachel hands down up to 1 1/8.
At 1 1/8 and over on a non biased track I start looking at Zenyatta a little more favorably. When she starts gaining momentum it\'s a thing of beauty..
MonmouthGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If fast horses like Munnings and Big Drama
> couldn\'t keep her busy enough front to set her up
> for Classic distance winners like Mine That Bird
> and Summer Bird, I would like you to name the
> filly in training that could step into that role.
I have no answers for that one..
Can we unretire Pine tree lane and Safely kept for the hypothetical race..
Understood. Right now I think the only horse that might be able to give her a tussle all the way around an oval would be Quality Road. Which makes me think that\'s another reason why she passes the Travers and goes in the Woodward.
magicnight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Understood. Right now I think the only horse that
> might be able to give her a tussle all the way
> around an oval would be Quality Road. Which makes
> me think that\'s another reason why she passes the
> Travers and goes in the Woodward.
I agree with you on the reason to pass the Travers. If they did run her in that spot I would give themn all the credit in the world for ducking nobody.
Soem rumors around that they were going to do the PA derby..Nothing concrete just some thing i\'m hearing..
Wow.. You are one bitter person.
Wasn\'t trying to answer before the Smith bashing. Just stating the difference between a jockey who has been there before, and one who is experiencing his first real taste of national attention/success.
I doubt Smith acted that way when he first became successful. Its no different than these clowns that stare at home runs, or celebrate every tackle/catch/ first down, TD in football.
Some have class, some don\'t.
P Dub,
Have you forgotten his victories aboard Street Sense,especially the somewhat
noteworthy ride in the Derby(s).Silver Charm makes slight critic of Zenyatta and you
wheel off in another direction and bash Mr Borel.I suppose Tiger is an idiot when
he fist pumps with emotion when he pours one in for the win?However,I agree with
you regarding the interest Z creates at the track and all the buzz.It certainly
is good for the sport.Just hoping for a dirt showdown tween Z and Rachel.
Take it light
With Respect,
mjs
You think so?? I\'m the bitter one.
How is that?? Because I don\'t like show boating??
You\'ve got people dismissing an undefeated champion, and I\'m the bitter one.
Beautiful.
> Wasn\'t trying to answer before the Smith bashing.
> Just stating the difference between a jockey who
> has been there before, and one who is experiencing
> his first real taste of national
> attention/success.
>
> I doubt Smith acted that way when he first became
> successful. Its no different than these clowns
> that stare at home runs, or celebrate every
> tackle/catch/ first down, TD in football.
>
> Some have class, some don\'t.
>
> P Dub,
>
> Have you forgotten his victories aboard Street
> Sense,especially the somewhat
> noteworthy ride in the Derby(s).Silver Charm makes
> slight critic of Zenyatta and you
> wheel off in another direction and bash Mr Borel.I
> suppose Tiger is an idiot when
> he fist pumps with emotion when he pours one in
> for the win?However,I agree with
> you regarding the interest Z creates at the track
> and all the buzz.It certainly
> is good for the sport.Just hoping for a dirt
> showdown tween Z and Rachel.
>
> Take it light
> With Respect,
>
> mjs
MJS,
Haven\'t forgotten those. Those were great rides. I don\'t believe I have ever criticized his riding ability. I\'ve never been a fan of showboating in any sport. Tiger giving a fist pump and Borel doing his thing are 2 completely different things. Tiger isn\'t wagging his finger at the other players, pointing at himself, or otherwise celebrating himself. He\'s doing it in the midst of competition. Now if Borel wants to pump his fist after the wire or do whatever to celebrate after the race, more power to him. I\'ve never seen Tiger walk up the fairway on the 18th, tournament in hand, and start to wag his finger or celebrate himself in any way. I\'m sure its pretty exciting to ride a horse like her, and I probably was too harsh in my description. But to me, it comes off as weak. Just my opinion. Tiger wins or loses based 100% on his performance, hard to say the same about a jockey.
Slight critic?? You have got to be kidding. This guy has been bashing the horse and connections for the better part of 2 months. To say he is a \"slight critic\" would be the same as saying Sean Hannity is a \"slight critic\" of President Obama.
Here\'s hoping for a dirt showdown at some point. Appreciate your point of view.
It\'s funny how you complain about racing not being able to attract any new fans, yet you bitch and moan in endless posts about Borel showing the exact same personality and enthusiasm that draws people to respond to competitors in other mainstream sports---either to cheer OR boo. An allegedly \"smart\" racing fan like you hates Borel for what reason? Oh yeah, he raised his finger at the finish line to say his horse was #1. Glad you aren\'t in charge of golf or you\'d be telling Tiger to shut up and stop pumping his fist, or...well, there are only a million other examples. We wouldn\'t want to show fans we have living, breathing people competing out there.
JMA these are some good points...people do go to cheer AND boo. It\'s pretty subjective but I am just the type of fan that will boo the celebrating thing every time. I always thought it was cooler to catch the TD pass and just flip it to the ref. You\'re SUPPOSED to catch the ball. It\'s not a miracle. You can spike it in the Super Bowl.
I\'m a Mets fan and it\'s been hard to root for them because you have a lot of guys on the team (some of them are hurt now) that do these elaborate celebrations and dances when they hit a solo home run losing 5-1. That\'s why down the stretch the teams like the Nats and Marlins get up to knock them down a peg.
On a slight tangent I heard on the radio drive home yesterday that a few golfers were complaining that the PGA has different standards for Tiger Woods. Apparently they do cite golfers for doing certain things - like throwing your clubs or cursing...and Tiger does this without getting any such citings from the PGA. And yeah I think he looks stupid with the fist pump thing.
HP
As a horse gambler I am in competition with my fellow handicappers everyday through the Parimutuel wagering systems. When I win a race I do the fist pump and scream and will occasionally say crazy things like that horse couldn\'t lose. I\'m sure all of you have done that before..including HP and P-Dub...Is that not the same thing?? Are you not in the same way demeaning the other gamblers by screaming for your horse or hooting and hollering when they just lost against you in that parimutuel pool.
It\'s funny that you say this but I actually make a conscious effort not to react to anything visibly at the track. I don\'t like to get emotional about winning or losing. I figure even if you are GREAT you are going to LOSE most of the time.
I love when I\'m standing there after a race and the guys are always walking around and showing their losing tickets around and talking about how they lost and how close they came and what they almost did. Like a complete stranger will walk up to me and show me a ticket say...\"look I had 2, 4, 6 on top and I woulda had it if the 5 came in second!\" I practice looking sympathetic in the mirror at home for these occasions...
To me the coolest thing is to win a big tri and just walk up and collect like nothing happened. All in a day\'s work. Yawn. I just think that\'s fun.
I don\'t think it\'s anything as serious as \"demeaning\" anyone or anything. I just think it looks cooler to win and act like it\'s no big deal. When I get in my car and I\'m all by myself...THEN I yell and scream, briefly.
HP
HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I get in my car and I\'m all by myself...THEN
> I yell and scream, briefly.
>
> HP
You have a lot more control than me...When my horses are running to the wire bobbing head and head for my money I still get excited and holler at the tv screen even after all these decades. Sounds like a case of to each his own..
You don\'t like jockeys who attract fans (new bettors) to the game?
Along with being outrageously bitter, you\'re a real smart guy too huh?
Dana666,
Yep, I do buy the freakin sheets, but whether I do or not, doesn\'t change that Zenyatta is not a great filly. Yes, she consistently runs in the negative 1 range, but that makes her good, not great. She is way slower than Rachel and also slower than some less than great fillies like Sightseek.
Since some good handicappers on this board seem to be more impressed with her win on Sunday than I was, I watched the race again a couple more times. (btw Dana666, \"good handicappers\" doesn\'t apply to you). I don\'t see it. I see a filly that is by her nature, pace compromised, and when the fractions were extremely slow, she can come home fast and nip a very mediocre horse by a nose. Annabaa\'s Creation is not even a Grade 3 animal. Gimme a break. The fact that she can accelerate the last 5/16ths off a slow pace is \"great\". Not by any reasonable definition. She needs to beat ridiculously bad fields like Sunday\'s by more than a nose, to be considered great.
I don\'t even remember what person posted it, but whoever talked about how Rachel beat nobody in the Haskell is just stupid. She was 3 wide chasing the fastest three year old sprinter in the country, then opened up on that Grade 1 winner as well as Grade 1 and Classic winner Summer Bird and Grade 1 winner Papa Clem.
yeah, shitty field. Especially compared to the titanic Clement Hirsch field...
Talk about being smart SEKRAH...
\"You don\'t like jockeys who attract fans (new bettors) to the game?\"
How many \"new bettors\" do you imagine are being attracted by ANY jockey EVER? You\'re kidding, right? You\'re telling me people who don\'t bet on horses are starting to swarm the racetrack and play because of Calvin Borel? Pass some of whatever it is you\'re having over here!
HP
People love him and are betting on him. His rides are becoming underlays because of his enhanced profile. If you are denying this, you are just living in a box.
The Men\'s 100 Meter dash hasn\'t had this much interest since Donovan Bailey/Michael Johnson 15+ years ago. Why? Because of Usain Bolt\'s showboating. It\'s made people either love him or hate him.
If you are denying that Borel is good for the game, YOU are the one smoking something.
Now you\'re bringing up matters into which you have no insight whatsoever. . . how in the world would you know anything about my so-called handicapping skills???
For the last time, I mean no disrespect to Rachel A. I never said she wasn\'t perhaps one of the greatest ever. I\'d like to see how the rest of this year pans out and next year, etc. I\'m not judging any horse by a few races, however brillant.
Zenyatta has run more than a few super races, and she repeats her form again and again, over years now. Her physical confirmation and her action combined with her size are truly extraordinary and very rare. In my opinion (as a terrible handicapper) Rachel has never looked a really good horse in the eye and fought it out down the stretch, like Rags to Riches did to Curlin in the Belmont, for example. She\'s brillant, a freak, amazing all that, but I\'d like to see her look Quality Road in the eye, for example, and blow by him. I still contend this year\'s 3 year old\'s with all the injuries aren\'t that strong.
Re: Zenyatta, You may not be able to comprehend this, but I\'ll try. Horses run much faster numbers on dirt than turf or synthetic. The pace of turf and synthetics races is usually much slower at the beginning and faster at the end, like a grass race. You\'re never going to have any horse run as fast in such races as a dirt race, so the numbers in my mind would be a little loose compared to hard dirt figures. We\'ll never know unless they met on dirt. Apparently Sheriffs has no plans of anything like that which is sad. The BC in Santa Anita is the plan; I don\'t think they mean the classic either. Not even the Pacific Classic??? That blows my mind really. The Pacific Class would be a no-brainer for me.
I\'ve referneced an article: http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/aug/10/1s10delmar00549-its-12-0-zenyatta/?sports/horseracing&zIndex=146854
I quote: \"Last in the field of seven, as is her style, through a dawdling three-quarters in 1:37.28, Zenyatta went to work for a sensational estimated final quarter of 22.49 seconds and hit the wire at her peak speed of the race, 40 mph, according to the Trakus timing system.\" That\'s as brillant as any horse ever.
I am denying this. Sekrah since YOU are ALREADY living in a box, it would probably be too crowded if I moved in there with you.
The money being overbet on Borel\'s mounts is not coming from NEW PLAYERS. This is your original premise. That \"new bettors\" are doing this. You don\'t know what you\'re talking about. Just complete nonsense. Read this article link below. There are no \"new bettors\" playing Calvin Borel. The handle at Churchill is way down. I can\'t BLAME this on Calvin Borel, but your idea that he is attracting new players is obviously wrong. Maybe they are just watching and cheering and not betting?!?
http://www.churchilldowns.com/news/archives/churchill-downs-request-reduced-racing-dates-stakes-purses-2009-spring-meet
What you are describing with Borel\'s mounts taking money happens ALL THE TIME. Jockeys routinely move in and out of fashion. You do go to the track, right?
I love Borel too, because the people that bet primarily on JOCKEYS are the people who provide the money that TG players end up winning.
Dana666,
You again talk about Rachel not racing against good horses. Are you kidding me? Even the most overzealous fan of Zenyatta wouldn\'t say that Rachel has faced lesser horses than Zenyatta. Rachel has won at 6 or 7 tracks this year, against colts twice, and against very fast horses and decimated them. I am not a \"fan\" of Rachel, to be honest I have bet against her in many of her races, looking for her to \"react\" to all the big figs. But she is just great. Period. The numbers don\'t point to this year\'s 3 year old colts being slow. They don\'t. The illusion of this year\'s class being so mediocre is because she is crushing them, regardless of the trip she gets. She is not a \"need the lead\" type. She can make her own pace, or track a very fast pace set by Grade 1 animals like Munnings, and then just kick by.
Yes, I agree that I would love to see Quality Road race against Rachel. Quality Road is the best 3 year old colt out there, I believe. I could make a meaningless argument that I Want REvenge was in that class prior to the injury, but since he will never be the same, the point is meaningless.
But Munnings, Summer Bird, Papa Clem, Pioneer of the Nile, Mine that Bird, Musket Man, Big Drama and Take the Points are all better than every single horse that Zenyatta has beaten this year, with the POSSIBLE exception of Life is Sweet.
And your fractional times at the end of the Clement Hirsh don\'t mean much relative to strength of competition. As you point out, plastic and dirt are different and plastic resembles turf with the late acceleration. I have seen many slow paced graded turf races at 1 1/4 or classic distances where turf horses kick home in 22 and change off of dawdling paces.
In the end, Zenyatta has done NOTHING extraordinary this year. Granted, because of Shirreffs, she hasn\'t had the chance to, but the fact is that Sunday\'s race was not extraordinary. It was a nice race.
I am not going to comment on whether Calvin Borel brings more people to the track, because I have no idea; however, I cannot deny the fact that in a sport where most riders are anonymous pinheads to the betting public, the general public loves and bets Borel.
At the Haskell prep this year (Long Branch Stakes), Borel was riding an Asmussen horse that few had never heard of. In a field with a Grade 1 winner (Papa Clem) and the most popular jockey/trainer combo at the shore (Breen/Bravo-Atomic Rain), the walk from the paddock to the main track was silent, except for a loud explosion of cheers for Borel and his horse (Omnicient (?)) The horse had little chance and was a definite underlay because of Borel.
For whatever you think of him (and I am neutral), he has become a cultural phenomonon, which can never be bad for a sport on life support.
I agree with you 1,000% MGuy. Here\'s what sekrah wrote
\"You don\'t like jockeys who attract fans (new bettors) to the game?
Along with being outrageously bitter, you\'re a real smart guy too huh?\"
So first off it\'s kind of insulting (he was addressing this to someone else, but still) and the second thing is...he wrote (new bettors). You are talking about FANS and there is something to this. There is NO indication whatsoever that this translates into new bettors and there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary...
HP
I quote: \"Last in the field of seven, as is her style, through a dawdling three-quarters in 1:37.28, Zenyatta went to work for a sensational estimated final quarter of 22.49 seconds and hit the wire at her peak speed of the race, 40 mph, according to the Trakus timing system.\" That\'s as brillant as any horse ever.
Dana,
I would just say that on dirt, a 22.49 last quarter is freakish, but not on turf or poly which are run over,not powered thru, like dirt. Agree, it\'s very fast but not as extreme as you are suggesting,imo.
Zenyatta is a terrific mare but has not run as fast as Rachel, faced nothing so far, and Rachel did hook Big Drama for the best part of 7f in the Preakness. In a dirt race with a big pace Z may be able to run a very fast fig, but we may never know.I beleive Z may be a faster fig horse on dirt, judging from her win at OP.
I would step out if Rachel faced a healthy Quality Road as to my thinking that would be a herculean task for her.
Mike
Mike
That\'s it for the knife fighting, guys. HP didn\'t get to have the last word with Miff, so he gets it here. Anything else on this comes down. Jimbo, I sympathize and basically agree, but that\'s it.
Which part of this nonsense do you sympathize and basically agree with? Which part not so much?
Yeah, that\'s what I\'m going to do, get into it myself after telling the other guys to knock it off. Go yell at Teddy.
Great answer. Teddy and I just stopped laughing.
You\'re right about Sheriffs. In one of those articles, Sheriffs said the BC classic might be an option and then a race later in the year(?) against Rachel (I\'m assuming at CD!?). I don\'t understand why they baby her so much. I think I respect an athlete who put it all down on the line and failed more than one who was perfect but never knew the extent of his/her depth, but that\'s not Zen\'s fault. I don\'t get why the Pacific Classic wouldn\'t be automatic, the timing is perfect, the race is late this year (in Sept.), and he\'d get a real gauge on whether or not she really is that good a some of us think.
I don\'t disagree with your premise, but you are aware than ANY HORSE CAN BE MADE TO LOOK BAD WITH A S----Y RIDE.
Especially a closer. You can\'t know for sure but presumably an earlier move would have made for a easier win.
Essentially, the ride was a stiff job, considering the pace, until the 1/4 . She did come home in racehorse time.
And I suspect RA would beat Z just about every time, any distance.
When a horse has a full tank of gas left in the final furlong (judging by the fractions), the move was made too late. This is indisputable, IMO. It was a lousy ride. The energy distribution that was made here was hideous.
First of all, Michael Johnson never ran a 100 meter dash in his life. He won medals at the 200 and 400 meters. So, lousy analogy.
I was thinking of the 150m match race that drew alot of attention. They were challenging each other to the \"World\'s Fastest Man\" title.