Apologize for the nasty subject of this thread, but boy is it disappointing to read about what John Shirreffs has planned for Zenyatta this year. She won\'t leave California, won\'t race on anything but carpet and won\'t face males. He is quoted as saying \"Saratoga is a long way away\". If this isn\'t part of what is wrong with racing, I don\'t know what it is. Compare this awful sportsmanship with what the connections of Rachel have done. In Zenyatta\'s next start they say \"there may be a rematch with Life is Sweet\". That is like advertising for the Globetrotters that they may have a rematch with the Washington Generals. Who cares.
Zenyatta is the best \"carpet champ\" of our error, but that is it. One dirt race, one race outside California doesn\'t get it done. Even when she retires 14 for 14, it will not be comparable to Personal Ensign\'s record or other great mares who travelled and took on all comers.
Terrible terrible job by John Shirreffs and the connections.
Jimbo:
Have to disagree here, and hope you have read Crist\'s comparison of Personal
Ensign and Zenyatta in his DRF blog.
Jim, you are about 20 years younger than I am. Covel has told me that he is a
\"pup\" and Silver Charm pointedly gloated that he recently celebrated a birthday
which made him \"much younger\" than I am.
One thing which I have seen change in Racing is that the best horses used to
come to the East Coast and specifically NY to really establish themselves. One
of the first runners that D Wayne had which made him a national presence was the
brilliantly fast filly Terlingua. I am sure there were Grade I races she was
eligible for in California, but she was shipped cross country to face the cream
of the crop, and as I recall, was beaten at a short price. Other West Coast
based runners I remember coming East to face the heavy hitters were Exceller
and JO Tobin, among others.
Without trying to sound too provincial,and without trying to infuriate a
certain poster from the Bay Area, in the 70s and 80s the Graded Races run at
the NYRA tracks were the races that Owners, Trainers and Breeders wanted to win.
The purses tended to be higher and the races had more history. I can not be
scientific about this other than to say that each September, after Saratoga
(used to be the AUGUST place to be) closed, they conducted a Fall Championship
Meeting at Belmont (and this really meant something before the 1984 roll out of
the BC). Runners converged on Belmont from Europe, California, Canada and the
Midwest.
Any defender of California racing in the 70s and 80s must be prepared to
provide the name of a runner who raced strictly on the West Coast who became an
influential stud on a national level.
NYRA grew complacent. Other venues began to offer larger purses. NYRA stakes
were downgraded. Other tracks, notably Arlington with its Million, began to
make inroads in terms of creating and promoting high purse graded events which
became important to breeders and owners worldwide.
At the same time, the breeding industry evolved in a way that performance on
the track and in graded events was marginalized.
Personal Ensign ventured away from NY only once. In her era, because of the
status of NY racing, it was almost assured that challengers would come to face
her in her own backyard.
I have no problem with Zenyatta\'s connections trying to maintain her undefeated
status. I doubt that the Mosses will ever sell any interest in this filly or
any of her produce, at auction or otherwise. As such, there is nothing which
can happen on the racetrack which will affect her value positively or
negatively to any great degree.
Zenyatta\'s connections had very good fortune that the Brilliant! minds which
are currently running Racing (into the ground) decided to conduct the BC races
over the carpet for 2 straight years. They are also lucky that Handicap racing
is basically a thing of the past, meaning Zenyatta will likely never be put in
a position where she is heavily weighted against less qualified rivals.
I do not feel as strongly as you do that Zenyatta\'s connection\'s decisions to
remain in a comfort zone is so much a part of what is wrong with Racing; I
would be much more concerned with the serious problems in 3 of Racing\'s major
venues-- California and Kentucky have each approached state authorities with
requests for FEWER racing dates, and NY only manages to race 5 days a week by
diluting the quality(?) of its once proud racing program with turf sprints and
cheap NY bred races.
Loved the line about the Generals and the Globetrotters.
Jimbo,
Love the line about the Generals and The Globetotters but one question, who do you want her to face on the East Coast other than Rachael?
They tried shipping her to Louisville to showcase her on racing\'s biggest weekend but the track came up wet so they decided to play it safe. Seperate debate about whether she should have scratched out of that race but it wasn\'t like what she was facing in there was any better than what she is running against out west.
Short of shipping to Europe and running on the grass, where do you think she would find any real competition other than Rachael and then we would be criticizing her for \"only\" beating a 3 year old filly?
Covelj70
My biggest problem with this decision is that the connections should take advantage of the opportunity to showcase this filly to the racing public like Jackson did with Curlin last year.
RA has already won graded stakes on 4 different tracks in 2009 and will likely run at Belmont, Saratoga, and Santa Anita before the year is out.
Would it hurt Sheriffs to ship her to run in the Go for Wand, Personal Ensign or Beldame...even if the races are essentially coronations...instead of treating her like she is the female version of Lava Man?
Not to defend the decision, but a couple of things may help explain it:
Shirreffs had unpleasant experiences in NY detention barns with both Giacomo and Tiago.
Moss is on the CHRB and feels an obligation to support racing here in the Bankrupt State.
Staying home is always safer.Not much competition for her in the filly/mare division.Would love to see her and Rachel match up at the top of their game. I\'d say RA would have a substantial edge with her superior early gas.Zenyatta is visually/physically impressive and a runner but continues to beat up on the Sisters Of The Poor out in Cali.Her 101 Beyer is slow. She\'ll fare better on TG with the weight and ground loss.
NYRA should put up $2 Million for these two to race at the SPA but they\'re probably not smart enough to even think of such a thing.Bet you would not be able to get into the joint and National TV would cover the race for sure.
Mike
Gutless trainer, are you serious?
They did ship to Churchill to try and showcase her. Again, the scratch was questionable given that the track was fast by the end of the day but at least they did ship and intended to do it.
I would love to see her at the Spa this summer but I think it would be against the same weak fields she faces on the west coast unless they find a way to get her and Rachael in the gate against one another!
Jimbo have a little different take and think that \"Z\" compares very favorably with Personal Ensign. But first Shirreffs is NOT taking the easy way here.
The schedule for \"Z\" would seem to mirror last year. In last weekend\'s Milady, \"Z\" defended her title while picking up four pounds to 126. The Vanity, June 27th would seem next and she would pick up two, if not three pounds; a certain bet against.
If she were to win, the Hirsch would be next and she would be looking to tote perhaps 130 around the compact Delmar oval. Before scale weights in the Lady\'s Secret and Breeders cup.
As far as Personal Ensign, as great as she was she only raced outside of NY twice; once in the Molly Pitcher where she toted 125 ( the only time she packed more than 123) paying $2.80 to win and of course her Breeders cup triumph at Churchill. Poly or not Zenyatta is fabulous and her upcoming schedule is daunting. bbb
PE is a phipp\'s home-bred and a bad example. Easy goer was another and seldom do you see those types outside of NY. Curlin is a great example as is Cigar, Forego, John Henry and a few others. Notice the term few. Owners and trainers of the empire state were reluctant as Sheriffs to ship their horses out of town. I understand and see the same thing in NY.
jimbo66,
You are indeed a classic. And you \"apologize\" for the nasty subject? You\'re all about being nasty about lots of things.
I have several questions...Have you purchased a filly at a sale for less than 6 figures and campaigned her for 10 straight wins and over $2M in earnings? If not, then who are you to designate where she should run? You\'re just chomping at the bit to play against her, so where\'s the sportsmanship in that? I don\'t have to bet a nickel on her to just enjoy watching her run. If she gets beat, does that make her any less valuable as a broodmare?
Do you think it makes any difference to John Shirreffs what your opinion is? I think not. Personal Ensign was one of the great fillies of all time. Why does Zenyatta have to approach or surpass her? To please you? By the way who are these other \"great mares\" you\'re talking about that were also undefeated?
The last horse I remember you campaigning was IWR and he failed to make the gate at the Derby while you were tearing up your future tickets. Maybe Mullins should have left this horse out west and then tried the dirt in his first attempt on regular dirt, he might have had a Derby winner.
So this is what\'s wrong in part with racing? How bout taking top 3 year olds off the track and send them to stud and deny the racing public high profile matchups? That\'s one of the biggest problems in racing. Curlin campaigns all over the world because of the great sportsmanship of those connections? Gimme a break, it was all about litigation. If that mess had been resolved, we wouldn\'t have seen Curlin as a 4 year old. Run him on the turf and get him beat, run him on Pro Ride and get him beat? That\'s sportsmanship? No, that\'s resume building. Gotta show \'em the potential offspring might be able to handle turf or artificial. Sportsmanship went out of this game a long time ago. It\'s about money now. Make as much money as you can make while conducting the type of campaign that let\'s your horse be ready for the very best effort of the year in the Breeder\'s Cup where the money is huge. If, repeat if, Zenyatta can get it done 3-4 more times this year and earn $4M plus, what\'s wrong with that? You gotta beautifully spaced, beautifully campaigned and healthy 5 year old mare who has a chance to hit the breeding shed in one piece. It doesn\'t mean she can throw any good runners, but she might. Jimbo, when you have a rare commodity like Zenyatta, its about managing risk. Five years from now, you think anybody\'s gonna care where or on what surface she won her races?
As far as referring to Shirreffs as gutless, would you call him that to his face?
\"Five years from now, you think anybody\'s gonna care where or on what surface she won her races?\"
The answer to that question is \"absolutely\" and I think the connections are fine with that.
Covelj(Jim),
I think the person who mentioned \"Lava Man\" is correct. That was a weak scratch by Shireffs in Churchill. Was that field worldbeaters? In hindsight, no, but before the race I would have said that trying to run down One Caroline on a dirt track with an easy lead was a tall order for the \"carpet champion\".
Not only is it that she stays in California, but she stays on synthetic surfaces. She is not even in the conversation of great fillies IMO if all she does is win on carpet. Carpet is a different surface. As you can tell by all the small fields and the short racing weeks in California, carpet has been a failure. That is further evidenced by the data Michael D posted on this board a few weeks back in that synthetics are not safer than the better dirt tracks.
Zenyatta is over-rated. right on par with Pepper\'s Pride... Nice feat, but doesn\'t stack up historically.
Smalltimer-- I try to stay out of nonsense like this, but that is one dumb post. That filly in New Mexico was undefeated too-- world beater.
Congaree-- try to contribute something other than \"were you drinking\" or \"are you serious\", okay? If you can\'t do that, at least be funny.
Since Jimbo is the size of your average nose tackle, I don\'t think he would be too concerned about meeting Shirreffs face to face.
I don\'t think it\'s the trainer\'s call and \"gutless\' is over the top, but I basically agree with Jimbo. These people don\'t need the money, they are not going to sell the foals, she\'s already got an Eclipse award, if you\'re going to run her, run her. Otherwise, what\'s the point? Personal Ensign ran against boys in the Whitney. Running in 5 horse fields under fake handicap conditions over synthetics at 1/9-- big deal.
Not sure you have to purchase fillies to be able to comment on the game. I am the customer. I pay Shireffs salary by contributing to the parimutuel pools. Without me, and the other gamblers out there, there is no horse racing game. I get to \"boo\", just like the baseball fans who pay for tickets and see their teams play bad.
What is your point about me being a proponent of I Want Revenge? That I didn\'t cash my futures bet. Yes, guilty as charged. I was wrong about him winning the Derby. I am wrong on at least 80 percent of my wagering opinions, just like most of those who bet horses. It is a tough game.
Shirreff\'s plan for Zenyatta is gutless. No trip so Saratoga, no races on dirt, no races against males. Stay in California and beat up tin cans. then hope to catch Rachel on a surface she has never tried because the idiots that run racing decided to do the Breeders Cup in Santa Anita two years in a row. Rachel would trounce Zenyatta on dirt, IMO. Rachel will get trounced by Zenyatta on the carpet, if they race against each other in California. Carpet racing doesn\'t reward high cruising speed horses like Rachel. It rewards quick footed turf type acceleration. Rachel on carpet is like Curlin on carpet IMO. The two of them have high cruising speeds on dirt and can stay on. Neither would be confused with a quick-footed accelerator, like Zenyatta.
As for my willingness to call Shirreffs gutless in person. Aren\'t we being a bit childish? But the answer is yes, I would certainly be willing to do it.
Obvious redboarding, but ... Shug should have scratched PE that BC day. Clearly, she didn\'t care for the surface.
First of all jimbo said \"other great mares\" That would include the NM undefeated mare. If Zenyatta runs the table history will show she\'s a bit better than the New Mexico filly and less than PE. History will judge her as a great mare with or without jimbo\'s endorsement.
As far as jimbo\'s size, his size is irrelevant. I know a lot of nose tackles that look like Tarzan and play like Jane. My point was, do you really have to get personal and call someone gutless in an open forum just because they\'re campaigning in a fashion that you disagree with? It is THEIR horse, if they wanna run her against cupcakes all day long, that\'s their choice.
Last time jimbo and I disagreed, you came to his defense there also, so it\'s expected.
I agree Monmouth Guy---they\'re more concerned with being able to say Z was 14 for 14 (or whatever the final tally is) than that she won anywhere other than So Cal (and one race at Oaklawn). I think \"gutless\" is too strong but to me, shipping to Churchill, Saratoga, or wherever and/or running a game second or third vs. males would say more about her greatness than smacking around weak five-horse fields over and over. There may be a day when the polytrack craze ends, and then people will say \"Yeah, she went undefeated but almost every race was against a tiny field on fake dirt.\"
First of all, Jimbo is doing fine defending himself. But are you seriously saying that nobody can express opinions about how other people manage their horses, or can\'t unless they have owned horses themselves? Does this go for other sports? Do I have to keep my mouth shut about Valentine leaving Leiter in so long in the last game of the series against the Yanks because I never managed a big league team?
If this idea becomes wide spread the talk radio people will be very unhappy...
By the way, my first interaction with Jimbo on this board literally almost resulted in me having to fight him, which once I met him I realized would have been a bit of a problem, and I\'m 6\' 1, 210. So it\'s not like I automatically defend the guy. New Yorkers have opinions, live with it.
jimbo,
This might be a little more \"civil\" post.
Parts of your post I\'ll agree with, others not so.
First of all, John makes enough training money from the Moss\', etal, that your personal wagering wouldn\'t have a big impact. \"Booing\" athletes is expected by some people, using denegrating names on trainers is ridiculous.
My point on IWR was just a cheap shot. (But, I thought you deserved it considering you cheap shotted me about a dozen times a while back. No big deal).
I would love to see Rachel and Zenyatta get together on dirt. No doubt, running styles favor Rachel bigtime in that scenario, unless there was adequate quality speed to make Rachel work. On carpet, Zenyatta possesses the running style to make it tough on any other fillies. The country would go nuts to see a Rachel/Zenyatta matchup anywhere, it\'ll just have to be on Zenyatta\'s turf.
As far as calling John to his face, you missed my point. Its not a matter of being afraid to do so, its a matter of are you really that classless? I hope you\'re not.
Hey jimbo...Peace out
Smalltimer,
You miss the point about paying John\'s salary. I am not saying my wagering alone pays his salary. If gamblers stop betting, he won\'t get any money from the Moss\'s for training. Gamblers fund the pools that pay the bills that make the game run. Without us, there is no game. Period. THis is a business funded by its customers. I am a customer. If you bet, you are a customer.
\"Gutless\" is not an expletive. It is an adjective. Of course, it is a bit too much in this case, but this is a message board, not church. Occasionally exaggerating, for effect, to drive conversation and debate is OK. Shirreffs is doing neither the game nor the posterity of the mare\'s reputation any good with his approrach. If it is the owners doing this, then I am blaming the wrong guy. What she is doing in short fields on carpet is not dissimilar to the Globetrotters playing the Generals. If you want to \"chastise\" me by saying I just want to bet against her. Do you think I take offense to that? Back to point 1. Gamblers pay the bills in this game. Without us funding this game, there are no purses and now owners looking to buy horses for completely altruistic reasons. of course, I want to bet into interesting betting pools. I want to bet on or against Zenyatta in a competitive race, on dirt vs a Rachel or in the Gold Cup against the best carpet-running males. But not against the same 5 horse field again and again and again.
TGJB, last comment on this thread.
I live in Nebraska, my son is named after my best friend who lives in Binghamton, New York, so yeah, I know about New Yorkers and their attitudes. I\'m just a country hick who isn\'t used to classless behavior.
Generally the guys giving the coaches hell for bad \"moves\", after the fact, never played or coached the game at a high level, and they\'re usually easy to spot.
But, do coaches mess up? Yeah, bigtime. And when they do, I guess they deserve to hear about it.
When you\'ve coached and dealt with as many world class athletes as I have, you learn to respect everybody, regardless of size.
To call a trainer gutless for not running his horse at other tracks, is stupid.. That is why I left it short... I would like to see more handicapping and race discussion on this board, but generally that isn\'t the case...
Certainly not from you.
Whatever dude!!!
www.facebook.com
Punch in jimmy moroney...
Maybe we can tangle.. I\'m 6\'3 265 and a black belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu..
If I win can I have some free sheets... Didn\'t no I made you so sore...
Jimbo,
We\'re getting closer...we should be commended.
I\'m glad you explained the concept of wagering to me. I always wondered where the money came from. By the way, I do wager, and I rarely wager on short fields, so Zenyatta in small fields, where she may have them overmatched, is a race that I enjoy watching. But, would I love to see Rachel and Zenyatta on the dirt? Absolutely, but it\'s not gonna happen.
I will revoke my condemnation on your using \"gutless.\" You\'ve explained the way it was used, and so we can drop that part from the dialogue.
I assumed you knew that John does not PERSONALLY map out Zenyatta\'s course, that is done by his wife, that\'s why I objected to your personal comment on John.
Jimbo, I wasn\'t chastising you by insinuating you wanted to bet against her. We all want races to play where we think we can beat that heavy chalk. I do that all day long too, so I know what you\'re saying. Sometimes though, you just gotta watch a race and root for someone even if you\'re not playing the race.
I grew up playing bullrings in Nebraska in the 1960\'s. I watched Garrett Gomez ride in my hometown when he was 17. I\'m been a fan and friend of Mike Smith since he was a bug boy at Aksarben in Nebraska since the early 80\'s. I like John Shirreffs personally. They don\'t need me to defend them, but they\'re good men, they\'re some of the best in their profession. So, its hard for me not to be a fan of these guys, even if its a race I can\'t play.
Thank jimbo,
have a good one.
Questioning a trainer\'s lack of competitiveness in picking spots for his horses is \"stupid\".
But posting on a horse racing board about your jiu jitsu background is \"smart\" and relevant?
Do you even understand this game Congaree? That isn\'t even meant as an insult, but if you don\'t realize that putting the mare against the same horses, again and again, on carpet, is not good for the game, then I don\'t think this board is the spot for you.
Latest lines:
Jimmy Moroney 3/5
Jimbo66 3/1
TGJB 7/2
All others 5/1
I don\'t understand why you would call somebody, gutless... This is a game that without players who not exist. But why is it bad for racing if the mare only races in Cally? If I went from betting 10-12k a day down to 2k a day, do you think it would matter for the game... And I was never insulted...
7/2 for Jerry seems like an underlay!!
Ok,Congaree and Smalltimer.
You win.
i take back \"gutless\". It was too far. Like I tried to explain I was being intentionally \"over the top\" to provoke some conversation, as we wait about 11 more days for what could be a great day of wagering on Belmont day.
Let\'s say the connections are taking the less ambitious route, which makes this gambler really appreciate what Jess Jackson did with Rachel.
I wrote that post last night right before I went to bed, after reading the roadmap that Shirreffs was laying for the rest of the year and I was really disapointed to see that we will never see Zenyatta in a challenging matchup. I am still distraught over last year\'s Breeders Cup Distaff, where we would have had the best filly/mare race ever IMO, if that race was on dirt. Zenyatta, Proud Spell, Ginger PUnch, Hysterical Lady, the Shug filly, the filly from Godolphin, and a few others.
Great matchups and the associated betting opportunities are really interesting IMO. And the zenyatta campaign is not going to provide any of either.
He\'s a New Yorker, I\'ve heard they eye-gouge, Pearl Harbor, hit below the belt. In other words, a good warrior uses all weapons at his disposal. TGJB has lots of weapons.
We need to start a new thread, this is getting ridiculous. Sadly, I\'m part of it.
Have a good day to all, even Jerry!! LOL!
Jimbo,
As I said earlier, I\'m perfectly willing to let that go, so we can maybe get onto something more constructive.
Honestly, I\'m going to the BC again this year, but earlier when there was talk about Santa Anita going down and maybe moving the BD to Churchill, I really was excited because it would have put Zenyatta and all the other great fillies on the dirt at Churchill in front of the world for maybe one of the biggest filly races ever.
I will agree this is the less ambitious route.
I do have a question though...When I\'m at the BC in the fall, you want me to have John Shirreffs autograph a program for you? You\'ll know who I am because I\'ll be the guy standing next to John when they load for the Distaff.
I\'ll let the personal stuff go, you may be the one black belt who actually does try and pick fights, who knows. But the point I made-- and which you didn\'t respond to-- is that all you are doing is making wise cracks. You want handicapping discussion, go ahead and do it.
Since I\'m the resident West Coast and Mike Smith apologist, my 2 cents worth. BTW Richie, is it Uncle Buck or P-Dub you were referring to?? I didn\'t have a problem with your post.
Jimbo,
Agree with you for the most part. I also was disappointed that she will run basically the same campaign as last year. I was hoping that after running through that division last year, they would try something a bit more ambitious this year. However, to dismiss her as overrated and on a par with Pepper\'s Pride really diminishes your argument. Its a ridiculous statement for obvious reasons. Leave that nonsense out. BTW, didn\'t she dust the previous year\'s BC champion by 6 lengths or so over the dirt at Oaklawn?? I guess that doesn\'t count. Loved the Gobetrotters line, funny.
This mare can run on anything, its just that shes based in California. Thats not her fault. Since the BC is in California this year, why don\'t some of these fillies/mares ship out west and challenge her?? Yeah I know, its not dirt and the synthetics diminish natural speed. There\'s a built in excuse if they fail and they can try out the surface to see how they handle it.
They were going to run at CD but the track came up off. Not the first time a horse has scratched due to conditions. Anyone can argue all they want whether or not they should have or not, they had the intention of running her. On dirt.
I doubt that Shireffs is the lone voice in this. Hard to imagine that a competitve guy like that wouldn\'t want to run her elsewhere, but he takes his orders from the ones paying the bills. Thats how it works. Have to wonder, if she wasn\'t undefeated would they be so conservative??
Like Smalltimer, I just enjoy watching her race. Carpet, dirt, California, doesn\'t matter. She\'s 5YO and still running. That should count for something.
I was trying to be funny Jerry.. I do not picks fights, nor do I like to argue. My apologies..
Jimmy
smalltimer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I\'m at the BC in the fall, you want me to have John Shirreffs
> autograph a program for you? You\'ll know who I am
> because I\'ll be the guy standing next to John when
> they load for the Distaff.
Smalltimer,
I\'ll be there too. Can I stand next to you?? ;)
No problem. I did look you up, Man, there\'s some big guys posting here. We should challenge Ragozin to a football game.
Pdub-- Now that was funny.
Listen, Jimbo wasn\'t knocking the mare. He was knocking the way she is being managed. Two different things.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No problem. I did look you up, Man, there\'s some
> big guys posting here. We should challenge Ragozin
> to a football game.
He\'ll never be able to figure out what positions to have his guys play. He\'ll look at them all and then he\'ll just use them all lightly as Quarterbacks.
Absolutely, you can help me crack jokes and loosen John up just a bit. Last year, I told him a joke and asked him for his autograph just as they were getting ready to load. Poor guy was so nervous, you can hardly read him signature. Lots and lots of pressure on these people at crunch time.
I\'ll be buying you the first cold one Paul.
Latest line:
TG Animals 1/9
Ragozin 100/1
CTC 2/1 (heard he\'s a biter)
Follow up:
Let me know and I\'ll my son invite some of his friends. Tom Brady, Ben Watson, Dallas Smith should cover the TG passing game.
P-Dub,
Finally a response from the guy I thought was baiting with this thread.....
I expected to hear from you, not Congaree and smalltimer...
She beat Ginger PUnch on dirt and beat her handily. IT counts and for my money, it is her 2nd best race, behind the BC Win last year. Even though all the horses she beat in the BC were diminished by the surface, she did beat a quality field. Having the best dirt horses from the east go out west and race her on carpet is better than nothing, but not the same thing as her traveling a bit and taking on challengers on dirt. It seems from some of the posts here that Shirreffs is a popular guy on the board, but read the article on DRF. His words are ugly. \"When you get closer to Breeders Cup time you don\'t want to ship around too much\". Huh? It is Memorial day weekend!!! The Breeders Cup is 5 months away. He is worried about her having to ship and return to California and be ready in 5 months? Gimme a break. That is a ridiculous statement. Other horses are shipped to the Middle East and come back and run in a month or two. Horses ship coast to coast all the time. He can\'t do it ONCE with this filly? Is she made of porcelain?
P-Dub,
BTW, I have sworn off Mike Smith bashing for at least 5 weeks. Nice aggressive front-running ride on Thorn Song yesterday, where he really knuckled down on the horse in the stretch and he/the horse would not let Victor Espinoza by. (and Victor is a pretty strong rider in the stretch himself).
Made up for a disappointing Met Mile for me. Now I LOVE Mike Smith...... For at least a few weeks.
Ancient Richie Bee,
I am not sure about you being 20 years older than me. I 42 and aging very fast. Every photo that goes the wrong way adds a month to my age Covelj may be a pup, but Silver Charm gives his age away with some of his posts, and I would set the over/under at 58.5.
I hear you about Saratoga losing some of its lustre. The world does change and the racing world does not revolve around the spa meet.
Respectfully disagree with you though on most of your post. Yes, there are diluted fields in New York, relative to 10 or 15 years ago. However, I will take this Belmont meeting over the ridiculously diluted Hollywood park meeting any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I am pretty sure that not even our resident west coast apologist P-Dub could argue that 4 races a day at hollywood with 5 runners, is good for racing. To me, it epitomizes the fallacy that is synthetic racing. Horses were supposed to be sounder, safer and be capable of longer campaigns. Funny how old NY Dirt racing has so many bigger fields than the carpet racing out west.
jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub,
>
> Finally a response from the guy I thought was
> baiting with this thread.....
>
> I expected to hear from you, not Congaree and
> smalltimer...
>
> She beat Ginger PUnch on dirt and beat her
> handily. IT counts and for my money, it is her
> 2nd best race, behind the BC Win last year. Even
> though all the horses she beat in the BC were
> diminished by the surface, she did beat a quality
> field. Having the best dirt horses from the east
> go out west and race her on carpet is better than
> nothing, but not the same thing as her traveling a
> bit and taking on challengers on dirt. It seems
> from some of the posts here that Shirreffs is a
> popular guy on the board, but read the article on
> DRF. His words are ugly. \"When you get closer to
> Breeders Cup time you don\'t want to ship around
> too much\". Huh? It is Memorial day weekend!!!
> The Breeders Cup is 5 months away. He is worried
> about her having to ship and return to California
> and be ready in 5 months? Gimme a break. That is
> a ridiculous statement. Other horses are shipped
> to the Middle East and come back and run in a
> month or two. Horses ship coast to coast all the
> time. He can\'t do it ONCE with this filly? Is
> she made of porcelain?
Jimbo,
I\'m a west coast guy, but that doesn\'t mean I can\'t be objective about the sorry state of racing out here. I hate synthetics, but since they are here I just live with it.
Agree with everything you say about the lack of shipping, etc.. Just didn\'t agree with the Pepper\'s Pride or \"overrated\" comment. The rest I agree with for the most part.
Glad you mentioned that ride Smith gave Thorn Song yesterday. He\'s always been really good up front and that race was no different. Nice price too.
JB:
I wanna be the defensive coordinator for the TG v Rag game.
I know all of their plays are going left.
Jimbo is well with-in his right to say what he did . Imo- It\'s a shame if the trainer doesn\'t want to run that Horse at Saratoga - bring it on ...
A Strange question
When an owner races a horse isn\'t the objective to win? if it an\'t broke why fix it.
Quote from: When an owner races a horse isn\'t the objective to win? if it an\'t broke why fix it.
true she would probably never lose if they ship her to golden gate or portland with that logic
No need when grade 1\'s and 2\'s are raced in souther Cali.
Just in case you forgot she was off 7 months and won a grade 2 at first asking.
Most owners, people would think that is very good.
if it an\'t broke why fix it?
This has been a pretty vulgar thread. Reminds me of CtC,during the good old days..........
there lies the problem are these races worthy of gr1 or 2? btw you said the objective was to win so what does it matter against who?
jumpnthefire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> there lies the problem are these races worthy of
> gr1 or 2? btw you said the objective was to win so
> what does it matter against who?
Bayakoa and Paseana, to name 2, have won these races. I think that would make them worthy, no??
The few horses I have owned I could not care whom my horse beat. Just that it won.
Maybe somewhere horse owners get more if there horse beats someone on your list.
Let us know so we can crossenter.
i have no issue with any1 trying to win or have a perfect record but id rather IMHO lose in a grade 1 full of grade1 filly and colts giving her all then anything to me and maybe only me that means something...
jumpnthefire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i have no issue with any1 trying to win or have a
> perfect record but id rather IMHO lose in a grade
> 1 full of grade1 filly and colts giving her all
> then anything to me and maybe only me that means
> something...
Huh?? Could you please mix in a period or comma??
Period .
Comma ,
It make it a lot easier to understand your point.
my bad P-Dub... my point is trying to win something thats not on the EASY ROAD gets more respect from me
Cool, and I think a lot of people would agree with that premise. I also would like to see her do something different, instead of beating the same overmatched horses over and over. I think the undefeated record makes the connections want to keep it intact. Too bad for the rest of us.
Maybe the track handicapper at Hollywood (and Del Mar) can pile on some serious weight for her next attempt at dusting the local F&Ms and \"nudge\" the connections to think open company or at least shoulder a significant burden.
They probably would avoid it however, scared of forcing their star attraction out of town...