Check out the TG sheet of Mor Chances(8TH Aqu today). Tricky took this one from Linda Rice on Sept 21/08.Ist start for Tricky, off a 7 week layoff, got a dry track top in a small NYB slow rats stake.Second start for Tricky, 10 weeks later, a new top in same type race.I have seen every race this horse has run and he was grass or mud on his best days, never won on a dry dirt surface. He was just an ok NY-Bred slow rat when Linda Rice had him.
What makes this tough to comprehend is that Tricky has not been sighted in NY since late Dec. I guess assistant trainer John Rodriguez is also a \"move up\" trainer or Tricky left some of the magic bullet stuff behind.Remember the NY testing program may be the most comprehensive in the country right now.
Tricky, peerless!!
Mike
Miff-- this one is not as extreme, I\'m not going to indict someone for getting one new 2 1/2 point top, even with an older horse. Of course, if it happens a whole bunch of times, that\'s a little different.
But on the second point-- if anything, that would be MORE evidence of something going on, not less, unless you think the asst. trainer is a master horseman. Again, I\'m not pointing fingers at this example-- but a horse can be treated by a vet, or given an alkalizing agent, whether the trainer is present or not.
JB,
huh?It\'s been happening for years with Tricky.
Mike
My point was, if it happens whether he himself is there or not, it may not be him that\'s moving them up.
TGJB he is the boss. So if there is help doing things he doesn\'t approve of wouldn\'t he step in and say, NOT IN MY BARN!!
The guy is moving horses up all over the country. New York, Florida off of multiple trainers. Kathleen O\'Connell, Linda Rice, Joe Deegan.
What does he know that they don\'t know??
Or what does he have they don\'t have??
My point is that it\'s not just good horsemanship, since he\'s not even there to see the horses. Get it? OF COURSE he\'s accountable.
Jerry, if you are better than Ragozin does that mean you are using juice? Or in any industry aren\'t some much more gifted than others?
\"but a horse can be treated by a vet\"
This raises other issues. Even if there is a correlation between the vet used and horses moving up, that does not prove illegality. Just as there are superior doctors and surgeons, there must be superior vets that do a better job of identifying and treating problems if you are willing to spend the money to get their services (do horses have HMOs that allow them to go out of plan? lol). There could also be some vets more willing to move into the grey areas without breaking any rules.
I tend to think there are a lot of things contributing to these move ups. Some are legal. Some are in grey areas. Some are illegal. But they all tend to get lumped together because of the frustration of gamblers and owners that feel they are getting cheated.
I agree that the question of legality is a separate one. But a) once we start getting vets of record, freezing of samples, publishing of TCO2 tests etc., we can begin to have informed opinions about this, and b) AGAIN:
As I have said before, I have factual knowledge about some of this. If you do enough searches here you will even find some of it. I\'m not going to get bogged down in this every time, but I said FACTUAL. Confirmed by the person who did it on a large scale. Proof, not evidence.
Come on, Mike.
First of all, who said I wasn\'t using juice.
Second, yeah, that\'s exactly what I\'m saying. Learning curves are exactly the same as purely athletic performance.
Third, I believe the proper analogy would be if I was only a little better than Ragozin, then two weeks later was as much better as I am.
TGJB -
I can understand why you might hesitate to name culprits, but I\'d be interested in having you shed light what kinds of things are (were?) being done.
I think I remember reading one comment by you regarding race-day clenbuterol. And given that TCO2 is a hot-button of yours, I\'m guessing that\'s also involved.
I\'m going to have to leave this mostly alone,except for this: one of the things the individual went into a lot of detail about was done BEFORE the last 5 years. It was EPO use he developed for a specific (named) very big owner, which caused some horses to die until he figured out how to thin the blood (aspirin, if I have that part of it right). He moved on from that owner to other big name clients, and eventually other drugs.
I know directly of another situation where a trainer got caught with big TCO2 positives, and was given the chance to walk if he told them how he was doing it, and where he got it. He gave up that it was the milkshake-in-a-pill, available (in his case) on the internet-- and for you at your local CVS, under various brand names. That was the first time the authorities or I had heard of that.
By the way, there is now a second generation of EPO, different drug and name.
On Clenbuterol, and on a lighter note-- a couple of years ago there was a CHRB meeting in California about drugs. A certain female trainer who used to be married to or live with a certain big named trainer, but was now estranged, got up and told everyone outright that the guy used to hit horses with Clenbuterol before going to the paddock. Urine tests don\'t catch this-- it takes too long to get into the urine. Plasma tests, which California instituted about 18 months ago, do. Right after they started plasma testing, several move-up guys stopped moving up. One went from over 20% to single digits instantly, and has stayed there.
You know what amazes me?
In all these years I can\'t recall one of these guys rolling over and confessing to the error of their ways.
Not one. Seems amazing considering how many do it.
And no smoking gun turn ins.
How can it be?