This one must have had a REAL lot of worms, which they got rid of really quickly.
13 days, to be precise. Which, by the way, eliminates steroids, as far as I know-- too soon for them to work. Sight?
Now personally, I would love to see the TCO2 test on that horse. Anybody know where I can find it?
TGJB
I wish this graph had created more conversation.
The 13 day turnaround does seem to eliminate many if not all of the LEGAL
veterinary-pharmocological explanations for this kind of improvement.
A bit, bridle or blinker change could certainly have been the cause of some
improvement, and I have said for years (and posted it here) that the public is
not given adequate information when told merely that blinkers are added or
removed.
Very interesting that in her last four races under former trainer Ann Merryman,
Met a Minor had the kind of \"tightness\" in her TG #s usually associated with
turf runners.
In any case, the bettors were not fooled, as Met A Minor, off at odds of 30/1,
12/1, 57/1, 80/1 and 23/1 in her previous starts in the NW1x condition, was off
at 4/5 in her Lake blowout win.
JB, you say you\'d like to see the TCO2 test for this mare. I think it would be
interesting to take a post race sample from the race which she ran for Scott
Lake and compare it to a post race sample (if any exist) from one of her recent
races for Ann Merryman.
Pet Peeve redux/redux/redux.
The TG Trainer Profile: Why can\'t the \"Runs-Based\" and \"TG Figure-Based\"
statistics use the same sample? Here the runs based sample is 12,057 races and
shows trainer Lake winning with 23% of his starters; the TG figure based sample
is from 7,027 races and tells us that 67% of Lake\'s runners in that sample were
\"Off\" or \"X\" ???
Clearly, this mare was just peaking into top form having raced non stop for three years. I\'ve seen this dozens of times, the 40th start surge.
Lake must know about it and got on board just in time.
I do encourage discussion on this. Who has Scott Lake #3? Maybe we can establish our wall of shame sheet gallery and TGJB can offer an inducement to people for participating. For example, if you proffer a candidate who is selected for the wall of shame, you get a credit of the price of the sheets that you bought in finding the candidate applicable to your next purchase?
My nominee got ruled off for at least 60 days or else I would have bombarded the board with them.
Any chance just for fun we can get posted the sheet for A One Rocket or whatever that horse was that got some people thrown in jail? Wasn\'t that an IEAH horse? Anybody remember what I am talking about? That was a jump up that definitely caused a stir -- a good poster child. Just trying to get some attention here on the dirty secrets that happen. If these jump up sheets were posted on a wall of shame, then the people in racing who do not want to do anything would have an ever harder time putting their heads in the sand.
So Cal,
A One Rocket was a very fast sprinter that had lots of fast figs, from memory.The Feds made a big deal because there was a hint of \"wiseguy\" attached to this supposed betting coup on a 9-5 shot. The small time guys involved with A One Rocket were around New York tracks forever ands were no where near what the feds portrayed.
Mike
A legal, appropriate and usual dose of steroid certainly helps a horse keep eating, feeling good and running back quickly (that\'s what it\'s supposed to be used for).
I\'ll have to go watch the races to see what, if anything, one can notice (this would be a horse where sharp paddock scrutiny and familiarity with the horse itself could help shed a light).
The pattern doesn\'t seem to indicate a need for regular routine time off to let the little usual aches and pains that accumulate heal, and that regularity of running in the past also (to me) would seem to rule out that something chronically sore (hocks, etc) was simply taken care of as it should be (legally).
Good pattern example.
Edit: Most importantly let\'s see how quickly the horse can run back this time (as it has done that in the past, not unprecedented for this horse that seems to be a relatively sound, hard-knocking and reliable campaigner). Let\'s see if the horse \"gave it\'s all\" for one run, or not. And what the next run turns out to be.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Cal,
>
> A One Rocket was a very fast sprinter that had
> lots of fast figs, from memory.The Feds made a big
> deal because there was a hint of \"wiseguy\"
> attached to this supposed betting coup on a 9-5
> shot. The small time guys involved with A One
> Rocket were around New York tracks forever ands
> were no where near what the feds portrayed.
>
>
> Mike
I do not know the facts about A One Rocket. Maybe the sheet does not show a suspicious jump up. If that is the case, I still think it would be healthy for the dialog to see a sheet where people suspected something and the sheet does not bear out the suspicions.
If someone can tell me the date of the race in question where he was milkshaked we\'ll post the sheet.
A One Rocket\'s Thoro-Graph sheet through his 5yo year, 2004. The race in question occurred on 12/18/03. He won by 10 that day and ran 1-3/4 for the first time.
Golly, wow, holy smokes, gee whiz, gosh darn, that Lake is a good trainer. Runs the horse back on 8 days, off a 7 point top-- and gets a forward move.
Good thing I haven\'t been drinking the Kool-Aid, or I might think there was some skullduggery going on here, rather than good old fashioned horsemanship and deworming.
TGJB
Maybe you\'d better re-read that, You might see that I was saying the opposite of what you apparently think I said.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Cal,
>
> A One Rocket was a very fast sprinter that had
> lots of fast figs, from memory.The Feds made a big
> deal because there was a hint of \"wiseguy\"
> attached to this supposed betting coup on a 9-5
> shot. The small time guys involved with A One
> Rocket were around New York tracks forever ands
> were no where near what the feds portrayed.
>
>
> Mike
First, to TGAB, very big thanks for all the efforts posting sheets here and also supplementing after the fact the Derby Special. I know that this is a pain and interruption in the work you need to do, so big thank you for accepting these detours.
Second, having now seen A One Rocket Sheet\'s, Mike does have a point. While I would disagree that A One Rocket was a very fast sprinter with lots of fast figs at the time of the race in question, the jump up is actually not that suspicious. There really is only one thing that makes it suspicious which is the short rest. Other than the short rest, this is a horse that worked its way down to a \"5.0\" in its first four races (all as a 3 yo) and then reacted. The race in question appeared as the horse (after requiring a lengthy break) was clearing working its way back down in its 4 y.o. year. Although the short rest would have made me cautious, I would have definitely projected A One Rocket to break through the \"5\" in either the race it did or its next race. The fact that the break through was to a \"1.75\" is not so troubling to me. If somebody told me a 3 yo topped out at \"5.0\" and what would I expect it to top out at in its 4 yo year, \"1.75\" is certainly in the acceptable realm.
To me, A One Rocket is sort of a grey area horse. The only thing really suspicious to me was the very short rest. If you take that away, then the horse\'s progression is not unusual or suspicious to me. Anybody have other thoughts? I would not vote for A One Rocket to be placed on a wall of shame.
Just noticed that both Metaminer and Vicar\'s Vixen are mares. Maybe Lake has a special horse gynecologist? In all seriousness, gelding is an option for horses. For mares, are there special feminine things that can be done? I do recall from way back that some fillies and mares have issues of air flow back there and there are patches and the like that can be used to solve air issues. Maybe there is something like horse viagra or the like.
Alan posted the new sheet in the wrong spot, my comments were not directed at you. You previously raised the question of worming, which is why I brought it up, but I understand that you understand that\'s not what happened here. I\'m using this horse to show the kind of thing I see fairly often, though a) not always to this extreme, ans b) only from certain guys. The conclusion is unavoidable.
As it happens, Viagra is one of the drugs that may be being used-- it\'s a vasco-dilator.
Jerry:
All of the family of Viagra-like drugs (Levitra, Viagra, etc.) are classified as a type of drug known as Vaso-dilators. In fact it was pure serendipity that Viagra wound up as as drug to treat ED...It was originally in Phase III clinical trials to be used as a medication to treat hypertension (high blood pressure) and heart failure. The patients who were part of this clinical trial were required to fill-out a form to describe their symptoms, side-effects, etc... The drug wasn\'t that clinically effective in lowering systemic blood pressure but it didn\'t take very long for the investigators to determine it\'s unexpected \'side-benefits.
My point is that these types of medications have powerful vasodilatory properties, which is essentially dilating/enlarging the major blood vessels, reducing both the load on the heart AND THE LUNGS with the resultant potential decrease in pulmonary pressure, particularly in cases of physical exertion. Clearly this is more than hay, oats and water!!
On a personal note, it is due to exactly these types of medication \'issues\' that I now wager 80% less than I did 3-4 years ago (from $4-5k/wk to less than $1k/wk). I know that I\'m not in the \'millions of $$ per month\' category but I suspect that there are more folks out there like me who have done the same.
My thanks for your efforts in bringing the needed attention to the equine medication problem. Clearly the need is here, not just testing but freezing the samples for future analysis.
Trackjohn
Sight,
What dose, in your opinion, would be needed on a horse to have the move up effect.Wouldn\'t any colt or horse get uncontrollably stud-ish if given.
NYSWB claim their new machine detects everything that there is a test for.As Jerry said, viagra et al have been mentioned as illegal move up stuff.Do you know if a test exist to detect this stuff.thanks
Mike
Viagra can be readily tested for in the urine (as sildenafil) I\'d have to check and see who is testing for it (Jerry? call Rick and ask if CA does), but Viagra has been around for quite a few years as an illegal drug in the horse world (in humans, too)
The point would be to increase bloodflow to the muscles. Hence more oxygen, hence longer time to fatigue, hence hold their speed longer.
No, a horse will not probably come onto the track with the obvious clue.
Dose? No, having never used it (as it\'s illegal in horses and has no use), I don\'t know - but I could guess at what point I\'d want to start if I wanted to try it out. It\'s been experimented with for the obvious reason in equine reproduction (without success)
Usually this stuff doesn\'t have to involve vets - one can get anything they want off internet pharmacies, especially steroid preparations (buyer beware, you may or may not be getting what you hoped for at the dose you want).
I think there\'s a mistaken impression that dopers are extra-intelligent, having extraordinary scientific or chemical prowess. I think they are usually quite the opposite. They are not very bright people who are more, \"Hey, Bevis, lets\' try this\". \"Eh, eh, eh, okay Butthead\".
They think if a little is good, more is better (and kill their horse on the track with milkshaking). They think in big, broad, easy-reading fifth-grade terms about drugs are and what they can do.
Seriously - some guys will throw anything into a horse, and if it seems to not kill the horse and might be working (and no, they are not scientific about it ), they try it in their other horses. They they pass around the lore on the backstretch. There is probably more \"hope\" than actuality to the way alot of this stuff is used.
And if I wanted to be an overnight millionaire, all I\'d have to do is make up Doctors Special Racehorse Pills and get a testamonial or two about how great they are. There\'s one born every second.
Sure, some guys are brighter, and some of the more intelligent vets may figure some stuff out, but that\'s not the average IMO. Because the intelligent people easily figure out how to do stuff ... intelligently (good nutrition, good training, good husbandry, get into the horses mind and correct any mental issues, etc)
While the guys - vet, trainer, etc. - who are not rocket scientists, and can\'t be bothered learning how to be good, try to take shortcuts.
A 7 point top and then a pair for MM after all those previous races at 3 , 4 , 5 & 6 yo ? certainly something you don\'t see everyday and probably for a good reason too , imo - even superman couldn\'t get that kind of number out of the horse ...
This would be the other side of the coin, when a guy who usually does well with claims, first time in barn, etc. goes cold. I\'ve got Amoss at roughly 1 for his last 36 at Fair Grounds. Did I miss a positive test or crackdown there, is he sick or out of town, etc? Rarely see him go ice cold at that track. I\'m not saying he\'s king of the moveups, but wondering if I\'m missing something here. Thanks.
Signals Inthe Wind
Philadelphia Park
Monday, February 23, 2009
Race 3
I\'m not so sure this one fits, Pic -- 1:12 and 3/5ths is pretty ordinary 6F time for nickels at Philly, and this one had 8\'s and 9\'s to run back to if Lake got him right again, a reasonable expectation whether or not you think Lake cheats.
What I want to know is: how did the public let a \"first time Lake\" horse go off as the longest shot on the board? At least a little of this complaining about \"supertrainers\" has to be chalked up as sour grapes -- I mean, c\'mon, my fellow bettors, do you want to make money or not?