The jumpers are in on this Gilcrist turfer.
What is up with the dirt track speed nine flat in the last after running much much slower in prior
Beyer had the Dunkirk maiden win fairly turtle like,a 77. This means the Matz maiden winner earlier was snail like.
Can not blame anyone for not adjusting anything on the day because the maiden races were filled with firsters so what would be the basis for any adjustment. However the track suddenly got really quick by the time the 3YO Sprint came up.
How did TG see it?
I thought this was a legitimate question when I raised it and now when I see this story it comes up again. Beyer is focusing on Dutrow and the moveup but it is not exactly like the Wolfson horse was beaten 10+ lengths. He was right there the whole way also so he ran a 115 or so. I do not believe it.
http://www.drf.com/news/article/101289.html
This is another Chilukki number for Beyer and Co. I am supposed to believe both of these horse ran as fast as Commentator did down here last year.
Are people being so tight lipped about a response because the wanna be buyers are standing in a long line trying to buy this FREAK. No these two FREAKS.
I told you there was a Curlin on the card that day. No two Curlins on the card.
The move-up from the winner is suspicious, but not the placed horse. You Luckie Mann ran a 107 at Calder in the fall, and got a 111 in the Sprint. A 4 point pop isn\'t quite the 36 point bump from the winner.
Wolfson may be the same kind of \"miracle worker\" as Dutrow, but at least his horse has a done it before.
It\'s also worth noting that in You Luckie Mann\'s other start this month, he was again second, beaten soundly by Notonthesamepage.
So, he\'s run second to the two best beyers posted by 3-year olds this year, and has one of the best beyers of a 2-year old last year.
Curlin he may not be, but it\'s clear that the horse has some talent.
Emerson, Lake and Palmer recorded the following Beyers:
84,79,79,107. Only a 23 point jump. But he is two year old see big improvements are not unusual. But a 107 in Oct at 2 now justifys a 115 in Jan at 3.
What is unusual is other than Andy Beyer there is all of this silence. Here is a juicy story about Tracks Speeds, Drugs, Moveups, Super Trainers and all of the Big Figure Speed Boys are silent.
Nobody here is talking. The Ragozin board is a ghost town, as always. Good to see Andy Beyer isn\'t backing down........
Not atypical for someone without all the facts who also made a kinda absurd figure.The race was very fast for the day,only one other 6f race for older fillies and mares.Two other races carded at 7f race were for 3yr old maidens, most slow going in.This will probably get a big negative TG fig unless the track changed speeds.
Beyer remarked that this horse ran faster than stake OLDER fillies and mares. He failed to mention that they were not that fast going in and none were close to You luckie Man, fig wise.Wonder why he did not question how this horse was close up in 44.4 and he had never shown that kind of early gas.Thats my question.
This Ones For Phil was privately purchased for a modest 6 figs from Kathleen O\'Connell who does not do much to help her horses, supposedly. Tricky immediately remarked that the horse was a bit tucked up, walked wide and appeared to be slightly off behind, nothing major. He thought he could overcome that stuff and told Paul Pompa so.He\'s a gelding by the way and Pauls a seller for the right price.
The purchase was made some 6 weeks ago and this horse had a total makeover especially feet and back.He gained weight, had his angle adjusted, had his back worked on,and was lightly trained between stiff breezes.Mike Welch, DRF, actually liked this horse and picked him in his analysis.Off the TG sheets, the horse looked impossible to me.
If This Ones For Phil does NOT come back positive for illegal medication,then the Great Tricky does it again.Anyhow, just another move up by Tricky without any real explanation, I guess.
Mike
Dutrow wins at a shockingly high 39% and ITM 57% with horse making their first start for his barn. Things that make you want to say mmm.
This is from Jay Privman, \"When Richard Dutrow was asked to explain This Ones for Phil\'s sudden improvement (117 Beyer from his previous 81 Beyer), Dutrow said one of the answers could be found in the little black bag sitting just outside the tack room. He then reached into his bag and pulled out . . . his training chart.\"
His training chart! Yea, that\'s the ticket.
For the record, Alan put the horse up in the analysis and made it his radio play, I bet him myself and Roger played him in the contest.
None of which is meant to say we expected a jump-up that big, if Andy is close to right-- I haven\'t done the day yet.
Kudos to Andy for raising the issue, I sent the piece to a couple of industry people I\'ve been working on the drug problem with. Last paragraph is great.
You will be hearing from me, not on this individual move-up, but on the whole drug issue, in the next few months. Either tracks are going to take action on their own, or we\'re going to make them.
Keep us all \"Posted\"
No Pun Intended
Thanks
Trust me, when it hits the fan you guys will be the first to know. And I\'m going to need the help of all of you and everyone you know who bets horses.
The good news is that there have been independent developments that will make this a lot easier. Should be an announcement about that in a month or two.
You know, I don\'t think its fair to second guess the Racing Authorities or these trainers.
My personal litmus test is , you have to perform some unexplainable miracle at least 856 times before it\'s subject to hard questioning.
That makes it fair to all, and gives them some time to build a nice nest egg. too
Just watched this replay. Not only did he blow them away, but he was under a hammerlock till the lane. Nice stuff.
Give Mike Welsh his due for going to some of the accused and letting them give a reasonable explanation or at least an opportunity. But some of these guys are like taking the word of \"Sammy the Bull\".
http://www.drf.com/news/article/101362.html
Dutrow and Wolfson have had dozens of suspensions and bans. Wolfson at Calder where nobody gets suspended, except him.
Walder was thrown off the track at Monmouth last summer or so. And after a bad meet of losing claims to the Gil/Shuman combo at Gulf a few years ago was keying their car doors and letting air out of car tires on the back stretch.
PEOPLE ARE TIRED OF THEIR CRAP.
The Kool Aid drinkers ain\'t gonna like that DRF article.
I\'m looking forward to some of those horses coming back. Most of the field was made up of synthetic specialists and CA shippers that often don\'t run well on the ship to Florida. I have a feeling that race was not as strong as it looks. I want to bet against the top few next out and bet on some of the horses that got got buried if they return to synthetic.
\"I have a feeling that race was not as strong as it looks\"
Cart,
...or maybe as fast as Beyer has it.Rags has it 4 lengths slower than Beyer,about a 107 Beyer.Have not seen TG yet but if they agree with Beyer, the fig is app neg -5, if with Rags,app neg -2 1/2.
Mike
I\'m not dismissing any distrust for Wolfson, but I can\'t come up with any suspensions he\'s had recently (last five or six years). Maybe I\'m mistaken.
The stuff about Walder is slander if you can\'t back it up with proof.
The story about Walder being thrown off the grounds at Monmouth was in the DRF. Maybe they also made it up? I doubt it.
Probably occurred for similar actions to what I will admit was third party hearsay. But I trust my source. How about yours regarding Wolfson has suddenly found religion and is now running his horses clean since he has no recent positives.
Miff-- Ragozin had the horse the equivalent of one point worse than we did, I gave him a neg 4.
Us \"Kool-Aid drinkers\" who think drugs are being used don\'t pay any attention to that article at all. You think Dutrow was going to say yeah, I gave him something? We\'ll see what happens when they start freezing blood and publsihing TCO2 results.
Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about yours regarding Wolfson has
> suddenly found religion and is now running his
> horses clean since he has no recent positives.
I don\'t know if Wolfson is clean or not, but I hate this kind of \"So...have you stopped beating your wife?\" type of inquiry.
How can you expect an honest answer to what is really an insinuation dressed up as a question?
Not finding anything in DRF archives about him getting thrown out of Monmouth. He ran 19 horses there last summer and others at the Meadowlands. He did spend a summer at Arlington in 2007 but that doesn\'t mean he was banned, unless you can show me otherwise.
Regarding Wolfson, my experience is that you won\'t find citations of a trainer being clean. Same reason the newspaper doesn\'t run a list of people who DON\'T drive under the influence.
If you\'re going to say a guy\'s dirty (or a vandal), you better have something to back it up.
If the amount of illegal stuff that you think was being used, the game would have collapsed by now.No question there is a small percentage of guys cheating,not nearly as much as the Kool Aid drinkers believe though.There are some talented fast horses and some good work by trainers to help horses run fast, without illegal stuff.Cornell testing upstate NY has the most sophisticated testing equipment in the country and have detected 2 class 1 positives in two years.How come, if the cheating is at the level you always talk about?
In the case of Phil,no one close bet a quarter and were only hopeful of a decent performance.My friend manages that stable and remarked that the horse did not look the same,appearance wise,from 6 weeks prior, he looked physically better.
TCO2 results, which you speak of often, are played out, minutia at best. Thats not confirmed to be a move up item in ALL quarters with it\'s move up capability questioned by informed testers/vets in NY.Freezing stuff will also mean nothing unless the find the illegal drug, perfect a test to detect it,and then go back. Too expensive, doubt it will happen on a meaningful level.
Mike
1-- How do you define collapse, and why would drugs cause it?
2-- I sat with probably the top pro horseplayer at Del Mar last summer, and we came up with a list of about 30 names nation wide. The NY circuit and sattelite tracks are just part of the picture. Unrelated (of course), Cole Norman just got out of jail.
3-- You stated one of the reasons for the lack of positives yourself-- they don\'t have tests yet, which is why freezing is important. Yes, they have to have protocols for going back and testing.
4-- There are other reasons for the lack of positives. On TCO2, the only serious investigation found, a) some tracks aren\'t testing, b) some tracks are deliberately testing AFTER the race to get lower readings, c) some tracks aren\'t doing anything or making it public when they do get a reading over the limit, d) no tracks are publishing the test results-- yet. Also, as I have gone into here before, the sanction levels are higher than a horse can produce on his own-- we are allowing horses to be moved up, legally.
If you want to find out more about this, read the Jockey Club Committee\'s report and recommendations on TCO2. And that\'s just one drug.
Finally, I have reason to believe there will be significant movement on freezing this year.
1.Players, owners, trainers would abandon the game if the game was anywhere near as illegally drug infested as you claim. People fail to note the numerous legal drugs being used along with modern nutrition,excellent vets, joint tapping,massaging, blue boots, oxygen chambers etc, etc, etc.They had carte blanche on steroids until recently.There is lots of griping, little in the way of meaningful positives.
2.If you have 30 guys out of all the trainers, that really ain\'t much on the whole and that\'s only your opinion.There is doubt in my mind that 30(as you said) trainers have the magic bullet and that such powerful illegal stuff could be that widely available in racing and no one on any backstretch in this country except for the crooks know about it.For example,you have named Pletcher as a move up trainer in the past. What science did you use? It certainly could not be his \"rap sheet\"
Many of us lived Oscar Barrera up close and personal, there ain\'t no modern Oscar\'s,not even close.
3.I am told in NY that the freezing, storing,warehousing is too expensive and at best they may freeze random samples(a small number)
4.Why you are stuck on this is beyond me. It makes no sense in the present environment for venues to \"cover up\" or not be vigilant re milkshakes.Why? What do they(racetracks) have to gain by overlooking this??? Why not overlook steroids, and the class 1 stuff too.
You ignored my comments that some informed people feel that shakes do not have scientific proof to confirm that they move a horse up.There is data to suggest shakes may \"decrease\" a horses performance. No irrefutable science here.
One theory out of Cornell zeros in on masking agents(it\'s being studied)The theory being that there are known illegal drugs in a horse\'s system that do NOT pass and are present at testing but not detected(i.e Masked)It\'s a theory.
I feel a few guys are doing things but nowhere to the extent that every time a horse runs a hole in wind,it\'s illegal drugs.
Mike
Since my third cousin twice removed name was mentioned ,Oscar Barrera , I have to ask.
\" Many of us lived Oscar Barrera up close and personal, there ain\'t no modern Oscar\'s,not even close. \"
Who says? What measuring stick are you using? You mean Oscar was better? Don\'t think so.
Oscar worked in a different age where blatant cheating at the highest levels was not possible. I said blatant. I\'m sure there was always cheating by some.
So he stuck to the cheap stuff so as not to anger the men with hats.
But today, well, do I have to say it.
Maybe Jerry wants to opine on the amount of move up OB was getting vs RD and the others.
Who said 30 was the \"Real Number\".
Look what the Steroid era did to baseball and their record books. In horse racing we are talking about the fans pocket books.
When the truth came out in baseball there were plenty of people surprised at some of the names on the list.
Each and every day more and more facilitators come forward and say, \"I gave him the stuff\".
miff, have you or anyone noticed that the so-called move-up trainers all use the rag sheets? maybe that\'s were the juice comes from?
when ro parra buys a horse and wins a stakes race thats all hay & oats, LOL!
Box,
Your memory can\'t be too good. Oscar took cripples, horse vanned off, ran them back 4 days later and they whistled and went on win streaks. No one close to his consistent legendary feats.
Mike
1-- Owners leave the game if they can\'t compete, whether because of illegal drugs or not. And they are leaving.
2-- Those 30 guys represent about 2,000 horses at any given time. They also infest a very significant percentage of the races run.
3 and 4-- Wrong. I know a whole lot more about this than you do. Read the Jockey Club report, or Rick Arthur\'s study on TCO2 correlated with finish position (and trainer), which was posted here. The JC put serious resources into this, and talked to all the real experts, not your buddies, who rely on anecdotal evidence at best. On freezing, I\'m way ahead of you and anybody you have talked to. I have been told the NTRA also thought it was too expensive, which is why they didn\'t include it in that bull---t plan intended to keep the Feds off racing\'s back without spending the money to solve the problems. Wrong. It\'s not that expensive. And it\'s in the works.
They don\'t have to mask things that aren\'t being tested for or there are no tests for YET.
2-- Those 30 guys represent about 2,000 horses at any given time. They also infest a very significant percentage of the races run.
.....Yes and one of your move up trainers is the under performing Todd Pletcher. Brilliant, you really know the game.
Mike
I don\'t want to get involved in this back and forth because I have absolutely no expertise on this topic (not that I have any on any other topic but we\'ll let that aside for a minute) but one thing I know for sure is that I cannot wait to see this board explode in a fit of rage if Dutrow significantly moves up the new IEAH purchase, Patena, and gets him into the Derby.
The horse has paired 6\'s in his last two which without some significant additional improvement (he has already improved ALOT from his first several races which were high teens numbers), will not get him into the money in one of these Derby preps where the top horses run low singles.
It won\'t matter that the paired tops for young horses suggest natural improvement in his next race anyway or that with his pedigree, he\'s bred to be better the longer he goes, or that alot of trainers could naturally move up the horse from what I understand has been a less than stellar training regime that he has been under up until now, everyone here will go nuts if he jumps to a 1 or 2 in his next race and winds up in the Derby.
If this plays out, this board might spontaneously combust.
You\'re right, I don\'t know the game.
The way SERIOUS people look at this is to look at the numbers run by horses, and who trains them, and what percentage are jumping up. You\'re correct, in the very narrow scope of your experience-- New York-- Pletcher has not been getting big numbers for months. That leaves out other time periods and other circuits, as well of course as other trainers, and that\'s aside from me not mentioning Pletcher over that time period. But other than those few things you\'re right.
Just keep shooting from the hip, and assuming other people haven\'t done serious research and don\'t know what they\'re talking about. That\'ll work.
Jim-- if he runs a 3, no sweat. A negative 3 would be another story.
covelj70 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don\'t want to get involved in this back and
> forth because I have absolutely no expertise on
> this topic (not that I have any on any other topic
> but we\'ll let that aside for a minute) but one
> thing I know for sure is that I cannot wait to see
> this board explode in a fit of rage if Dutrow
> significantly moves up the new IEAH purchase,
> Patena, and gets him into the Derby.
>
> The horse has paired 6\'s in his last two which
> without some significant additional improvement
> (he has already improved ALOT from his first
> several races which were high teens numbers), will
> not get him into the money in one of these Derby
> preps where the top horses run low singles.
>
> It won\'t matter that the paired tops for young
> horses suggest natural improvement in his next
> race anyway or that with his pedigree, he\'s bred
> to be better the longer he goes, or that alot of
> trainers could naturally move up the horse from
> what I understand has been a less than stellar
> training regime that he has been under up until
> now, everyone here will go nuts if he jumps to a 1
> or 2 in his next race and winds up in the Derby.
>
>
> If this plays out, this board might spontaneously
> combust.
I liked the colt last out (along with the fine ROTW selection). A well bred colt from the Touch Gold family. Looking for a new top next out indeed (at low odds most likely).
Zito had one today in the Holy Bull from the same family, but he\'s been scratched. One to keep an eye on if he\'s sound.
TGJB -
It would be helpful if people would start making data publicly available instead of just saying they have it. The CHRB and Rick Arthur seem like a poster boys for the latter. Didn\'t California refuse to provide their TCO2 data to you when you requested it?
Beyer is guilty of the same thing. He could have dipped into his database, made a coherent case, and posted some data on the DRF website. Instead he just threw out names.
As I recall, you did get some TCO2 data (in very raw form) from NY. Did you ever get around to organizing and analyzing it?
While Arthur is unable legally (I\'m working on that) to publish the individual results, he did publish a study based on them, which was posted on this site (try a search), and their was correlation between TCO2 level and finish position. I only requested one month of results at NYRA and dropped it because other things started taking place that will ultimately accomplish much more than my individual efforts. Since they only test some of the horses, one month is a very small sampling.
I won\'t debate the issue of whether he moved up cripples, three legged horses, or what have you.
Your point is that these guys are pikers by comparison. I think not.
Some drink the Kool Aid, some drink the Cobra Venom.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Box,
>
> Your memory can\'t be too good. Oscar took
> cripples, horse vanned off, ran them back 4 days
> later and they whistled and went on win streaks.
> No one close to his consistent legendary feats.
>
>
>
> Mike
JB, fair enough, I am really looking forward to seeing this play out one way or the other.
Thanks so much,
Jim
TGJB -
I remember the study.
http://www.thorograph.com/phorum/read.php?1,39120,39298#msg-39298
I\'m not sure how strongly it supports the proposition you are citing it for. It studied TCO2 as a dependent variable, looking at the the causes, not the effects, of TCO2 variation. It found a very small difference in TCO2 concentration (around 0.2 mM or 0.6%) between the top 3 finishers and the rest of the field. Even if the study uncovered a real correlation, correlation is not causation. It seems equally likely, for example, that the trainers with the resources to play close to the edge with TCO2 have better in-the-money percentages than the trainers who lack those resources.
My point, however, is not to reopen the TCO2 debate. My point is that this kind of data shouldn\'t be made available only to a few researchers at Texas A&M, who publish the results of THEIR analysis in a veterinary journal to which most have limited access. This is the Internet area. Scientists routinely post enormous data sets in support of their papers. The CHRB, the Jockey Club and the industry as a whole make a habit of burying data, preferring to spin it themselves, rather than expose it to unbiased analysis. And racing \"journalists\" play along.
Bit,
On this subject, a few years ago,DR.George Maylin Head of Drug Testing for New York State directed me to some fantastic sites on Milkshakes and there is stuff all over the internet.
Jerry, you may wish to read it to add to your knowledge.From what you are saying, it seems that you are only relying on the take of the Cali findings and not including the several medical experts who were specifically charged with doing studies in the US, Australia and Canada re milkshakes. The studies were very comprehensive and showed very mixed results.Not one study concluded that milkshakes improve the performance of EVERY horse shaked, across the board.Interestingly, several things can innocently affect TCO2 levels.Of course the studies dealt with intentional performance enhancing attempts.More than one studied live race meets and gave results by levels and order of finish.
The history of examining it\'s affect on horses was originally studied in Australia 20 years ago.Many studies since have concluded that SOME horses, up to 40% in one study were ADVERSELY affected when the TCO2 levels were too high.Other horses were only marginally improved, performance wise, and yes some were improved by up one second(5 lengths), thats huge!
My point is/was that it is NOT conclusive that all horses move up and some studies suggest that the milkshake is only effective when administered 1-2 hours before the race. How is that now possible with horses in detention 4-6 hours before a race.I guess a crook can always find a new way.
I\'ll stand by what I\'ve thought all along, milkshakes are old news, there is no place for them in racing and agree that venues should publish TC02 results. I\'ll add that when and if they do publish,most of the usual suspects will probably win at their normal rate.
Mike
Miff-- the Jockey Club Committee studied all available data (they quoted some Australian studies when talking to me) and talked to just about everyone who is working on the drug problem. They also talked to me at length, and still do. If you look at their report and the section on TCO2 standards and practices you will see what they have to say.
Bit-- a) The California study, because that state takes drug testing seriously, concerns almost exclusively horses UNDER the limit, and even with them there is correlation-- what about those states that are not testing seriously, or at all, or after the race...
b) YES, exactly, the data should be made public. The Jockey Club made that one of their recommendations, and I\'m the reason they did. I pushed very hard for it, am continuing to do so, and will do so going forward. It is crucial. IT IS NOT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS-- but it\'s one of them.
It is extremely important that the JC did this, and made the other recommendation about freezing blood. The reason is this-- it will be a lot easier to force tracks to accept the JC recommendations than the Thoro-Graph ones.
Heres a direct link to Beyer talking the talk
Its Hour 2 of the 3 hours listed
http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=431&year=2009&month=01&day=28&Itemid=35
Jerry,
Dan Illman wrote this in his blog over at DRF:
\"Growth hormone is probably the illegal drug of choice for trainers willing to
cheat, and it is pretty much undetectable in any form of testing.\"
Is GH on your radar? Will this be addressed as part of what you indicated will
be announced or released in the near future regarding drugs and racing?
I haven\'t seen growth hormones mentioned before in relation to horses; most of
what I have seen in the past few years, here and elsewhere, deals with TCO2
levels.
The theory is that freezing blood will deal with the \"unknown\" factor. I DON\'T think alkalizing agents (milkshakes) are the only thing being used. I DO think that the public has a right to the testing for them (and other drugs) being done properly, and the results published.
Many tracks have made a big deal about steroid testing recently. Do you know which horses were tested? Do you know what the results of the tests were?
A point I have made here a couple of times-- which Miff and others never seem to get-- is that aside from what I see on the figures (which on a mathematical basis is conclusive in its own right), I have some direct knowledge on the subject. Some of it I am not allowed to discuss (and in one case I truly hope at some point the individual goes public and tells everyone what he told an investigative group, what a story).
But I\'ll quickly recount one story I have told here before. A couple of years ago I was trying to get the TCO2 test results published for the BC at CD as a way of getting the ball rolling. I was told that couldn\'t be done, because they were not testing. When I expressed shock and dismay, I was told that the guy who did the testing had quit at the start of the meet and they just hadn\'t replaced him. (I would point out that trainers know if someone is drawing blood or not. Think anyone took a shot?).
So I called a major racing journalist and told him this, and he inquired directly. They told him that was true, but that they would be testing random horses at the BC. Did they? Who the hell knows-- they didn\'t publish any results, so a) we don\'t know if they did, and b) we don\'t know if they would blow the whistle if they got a positive-- we already know they don\'t care about the integrity issue, or they would have ben testing.
There was a famous Daily News headline many years ago-- Ford To City, Drop Dead.
Tracks To Horseplayers, Drop Dead.
Pletcher has often been accused of being a \"super trainer\". If his success wasn\'t the result of great stock, great management, and great horsemanship, we have to assume he\'s no longer doing whatever illegal things he was doing before.
Well, why not?
I can only assume he can\'t do it anymore because he thinks he\'ll get caught.
Unfortunately, that opens the door to a question.
If they can detect what he was doing, why is there never a shortage of new super trainers in NY as the former ones get caught or have to stop?
Am I to believe that there are numerous magic potions out there and its always a new set of guys that have the latest magic bullet?
Right now there are a few move up trainers in NY that weren\'t even training here a few meets ago.
Why is that?
Do the new guys have \"the juice\" but Levine, Contessa, Pletcher and a few others that are currently performing like mortals can\'t get the same stuff?
That\'s hard for me to accept.
I can see a trainer or two doing something illegal, getting caught, and then going really bad. We see that from time to time. But that\'s the exception. Most of the time a few guys get hot for awhile, but then over time they get replaced by new guys as the former ones die out. If it\'s something illegal that accounts for that repeated pattern, someone has to explain it all.
In my opinion, there are a only handful of trainers around the country that consistently do things that defy the normal bounds of improving horses over the work of lesser horsemen. Most of them are not even among the household names that get tossed around. I think what we are mostly seeing is competent horseman, that are good managers, with good stock, and the resources and willingness to go to the edge of legality to improve on the work of those that can\'t. That in turn creates its own momentum for continued success. Then when they finally go bad or get old and lazy, the process reverses itself and new guys take their place.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You\'re right, I don\'t know the game.
>
> The way SERIOUS people look at this is to look at
> the numbers run by horses, and who trains them,
> and what percentage are jumping up. You\'re
> correct, in the very narrow scope of your
> experience-- New York-- Pletcher has not been
> getting big numbers for months. That leaves out
> other time periods and other circuits, as well of
> course as other trainers, and that\'s aside from me
> not mentioning Pletcher over that time period. But
> other than those few things you\'re right.
>
> Just keep shooting from the hip, and assuming
> other people haven\'t done serious research and
> don\'t know what they\'re talking about. That\'ll
> work.
hey Cartman, then you also believe that the current economic crisis is the result of a normal business cycle.
not the mention Santa and the Tooth Fairy.
Thinking will get you in trouble every time.