I know this is horse racing wagering information site but it is also full of gamblers.
This coming weekend all four road teams in the Playoffs are favored. This includes two teams who won their divisions.
The Eagles have now turned into the bigest Wise Guy play since Saarland in the Derby.
I am not really a fan of any football team but can enjoy watching a good pro
or college game...even without action.
The best professional game (if we are going to be realistic) in the next 10 days
features the \"student\" athletes from Florida and Oklahoma.
Lots of parity in the NFL this year. Personally I would like to see the Manning
brothers face off in the Super Bowl. NYC might need the emotional lift a second
Super Bowl would bring with the prospect of a rough economy in the bleak winter
months; I am already planning a New Orleans/ Hot Springs vacation with a
portion of the severance package I expect to be receiving sometime in January.
Speaking of football and unemployment, was glad to see the Jets cut their
losses with Mangini today. Mangini convinced everybody that some of the Belechek
magic had rubbed off on him, the same way that the Rodney Dangerfield look alike
Charlie Weis convinced the Notre Dame folks that the Parcells magic had rubbed
off on him.
Weis and Mangini, from what I have seen, are Division III talents with a
superior line of BS.
I\'ve said too much about football, possibly the third greatest game played
outdoors behind the Sport of Kings and golf.
2008,a year in which I worked 6 or 7 days a week every week since April 1, will
finish with a rare day off on Wednesday. See ya at the Inner Tube.
Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know this is horse racing wagering information
> site but it is also full of gamblers.
>
> This coming weekend all four road teams in the
> Playoffs are favored. This includes two teams who
> won their divisions.
>
> The Eagles have now turned into the bigest Wise
> Guy play since Saarland in the Derby.
There\'s one important difference Silver.
Philly aint gonna lose. Tavaris Jackson?? Thats like asking the leading rider at Portland Meadows to ride your Derby horse.
Wild Card weekend is like Ladies\' Day at the BC. The big boys race the following weekend.
I think the last two Super Bowl winners started on Ladies Day.
Colts/Giants
Zenyatta will also be HOY
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not really a fan of any football team but can
> enjoy watching a good pro
> or college game...even without action.
>
> The best professional game (if we are going to be
> realistic) in the next 10 days
> features the \"student\" athletes from Florida and
> Oklahoma.
>
> Lots of parity in the NFL this year. Personally I
> would like to see the Manning
> brothers face off in the Super Bowl. NYC might
> need the emotional lift a second
> Super Bowl would bring with the prospect of a
> rough economy in the bleak winter
> months; I am already planning a New Orleans/ Hot
> Springs vacation with a
> portion of the severance package I expect to be
> receiving sometime in January.
>
> Speaking of football and unemployment, was glad to
> see the Jets cut their
> losses with Mangini today. Mangini convinced
> everybody that some of the Belechek
> magic had rubbed off on him, the same way that the
> Rodney Dangerfield look alike
> Charlie Weis convinced the Notre Dame folks that
> the Parcells magic had rubbed
> off on him.
The Jets were 8-3 when Favre was playing ok. They went 1-4 in the last five when the white TO threw 2 TDs and 9 picks. What\'s a coach supposed to do about that?
As for the Pennington debacle, I don\'t think this was about Chad Pennington. I think it was about one ego - Brett Favre, and one genius - Bill Parcells.
Belichick had five rough years in Cleveland and got canned after a 5-11 season.
Mangini will be back.
Edit: However, one life lesson will come into play here - never burn your bridges. Belichick came back through Parcells. It\'s very unlikely Mangini will get that shot with his former mentor.
> Weis and Mangini, from what I have seen, are
> Division III talents with a
> superior line of BS.
>
> I\'ve said too much about football, possibly the
> third greatest game played
> outdoors behind the Sport of Kings and golf.
>
> 2008,a year in which I worked 6 or 7 days a week
> every week since April 1, will
> finish with a rare day off on Wednesday. See ya at
> the Inner Tube.
The guy that should\'ve gotten fired is the Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum.
This reminds me of the Mets, where they fired Willie and Omar Minaya stayed. The Mets stunk because of Omar, not Willie, and when they hired a new manager with the same players they got exactly the same result. Same with the Jets.
Tannenbaum got outfoxed. The Packers knew they couldn\'t rely on Favre for another long season. Why else would they let him go?
I\'m responding to this because the Jets...are suffering from the Shea curse. They abandoned their real fan base at Shea, including me, and since they hightailed out to Jersey and GIANTS STADIUM (is there another professional sports franchise that plays in a building named for another team?) they have never done a thing, nor will they. Their only hope was to move back to Shea, and now that\'s impossible. So they are DOOMED for eternity.
HP, I always thought the Jets were cursed because B\'way Joe sold his soul to Ray Walston so they could win Supe III. It\'s not like things were that great at Shea in the 70\'s and early 80\'s, y\'know!
Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the last two Super Bowl winners started on
> Ladies Day.
>
> Colts/Giants
>
> Zenyatta will also be HOY
Wild Card weekend is usually filled with teams that have no shot at the championship except maybe a few ( the games are usually pretty exciting though). Thats the point. Same with Ladies Day. The only teams with a shot at making any noise past the first weekend are Philadelphia and Indy....maybe Baltimore but I don\'t think Flacco is there yet. That leaves 5-6 teams with no shot.
4 of the last 11 SB winners were Wild card teams. I\'m aware of the history. But they didn\'t have Tavaris Jackson as their QB. Donovan McNabb is one of the most underappreciated QBs in recent memory.
If you want to make an analogy with wiseguy teams and Saarland, you need to do a lot better than Philadelphia as your example. They will lay an egg against teams they should beat (a lot of teams will do that occassionally), but they also can match up with any team in the league when on their game. You can\'t say that about many of the others.
Sorry Magicnight...I liked Shea just fine. The Shea Curse lives!
Golf? C\'mon, golf? Richiebee, you can do better than that. Golf ??
I\'d call it a dump, but that wouldn\'t be fair to the other dumps. To each his own, I guess.
I don\'t disagree with you, but to me it was perfectly okay to watch a football game there. You see a big upgrade to the dump in the Meadowlands? I don\'t. If anything, it\'s ten times worse getting into and out of the Meadowlands than it ever was at Shea, and the whole selling point of their move was the usual \"more parking\" crap. Shea Curse!
Well, seeing as how I probably saw 40 Mets games there compared with one Jets game (horrible playoff game for the Richard Todd Jets in the early 80s), I can see your point of view. That stadium did make for some good football weather each December. OK ... Shea Curse it is!!!
Right on! Shea Curse!
I was born in \'61. I grew up watching Joe Willie out there! Saw lots of great players. The Mad Bomber. Johnny U. Jim Turner with the square toe shoes... Those were the days.
Sorry, take it back to horse racing guys...
Namath is the single most overrated athlete of all time. More INTs than TDs, completed less than half his passes, winning record in 2 seasons (I think). All this despite having maybe the best receiver tandem and offensive line in history.
I\'ll concede Joe Willie being terribly overrated ... amazing what one Supe guarantee and scoring a lot of women will do for your rep. His backfield was none too shabby either, but ... viewed in combination or separately, you would have to consider Biletnikoff/Branch and the Shell/Upshaw line as formidable competition. We may disagree elsewhere, but I bet P-Dub is with me on this one! I\'ll stop here, else we will need a barroom to settle this thing.
Magicnight I\'m with you on that one.
And Stabler could give Namath a run for his money on the afterhours \"last calls\" and the early morning wakeups of, \"What did you say your name was honey\".
There has only been about four occasions where a team giving 20+ points was beaten straight up and Namath was the QB in at least two of them.
Namath threw about a half a dozen picks in those games. A guy who ran a bar frequented by mob types. hmmmmmmm..........
As a Jet fan: I would love Shanahan (the coach), but it looks as though he\'s headed to Dallas.
I wouldn\'t mind Mariucci (he\'s tight with Favre), Billick (can\'t help it, I cashed big on the Ravens Super Bowl), or even Shottenheimer (who has a better REGULAR SEASON win% than Parcells) to break thorough his horrible playoff record.
As a Metropolitan fan: please, Omar, please....MANNY!
With all due respect, I think Namath brought something to the game and to the era that cannot be quantified. If you look at his stats and the records of his teams, yes, they are not great stats or records. But, not everything you need to know about a horse can be boiled down onto a sheet and not everything you need to know about a football player can be boiled down into stats and records.
It is plausible that the AFL would not have made it without Namath. Also, there were some mighty skillful judges of football talent (far more skillful than anybody on this board) who swore that Namath was one of the all time great players (Bear Bryant and his coaching staff come to mind (and if you have not ever looked, Bear Bryant former assistants are a pretty impressive lot)). The Namath aura had a big impact in games and changed the mindset in football. (But see -- Slingin Sammy Baugh --- who just recently died at age 90 and the NY Times had a great obit -- you can still find it if you search the site).
Again, it is not possible to make a case against the numbers you guys probably correctly cite, but the 1960s-1970s were a transitional time not just in football but in society at large. Football did not have the central place that it currently has (lest we forget the Heidi game which of course featured Namath and a wild ending of the type he introduced to football -- but football was such second (or third or fourth) fiddle they cut out of a game to go to a childrens movie). Namath changed the game and also made a far wider audience want to watch it than ever had before. Imagine if we had a horse who was so amazing that hordes of new fans came to our sport just out of the possibility (but with no guarantee) to glimpse a flash of true greatness!
If you want to equate Namath to a horse on a sheet....he is the type of horse who has thrown some unprecendented gem quality efforts but also has a lot of bounces and a lot of time off for injury (and poor efforts because he played through injuries). On balance, the whole sheet may not look so great, but those stellar moments (especially when viewed in light of the stellar moments of other performers of the same time) shine through as a thing of beauty
SoCalMan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is plausible that the AFL would not have made
> it without Namath.
The AFL had some great teams and players besides the Jets and Namath. SB3 changed the way people viewed the AFL, but the KC Chiefs the following year also had an impact on the merger.
> Also, there were some mighty
> skillful judges of football talent (far more
> skillful than anybody on this board) who swore
> that Namath was one of the all time great players
Namath had a quick release and could make throws that would make scouts drool. But to say he was one of the all time greats is a stretch. If Lamonica doesn\'t airmail that screen pass to Charlie Smith, ruled a lateral that basically ended the game, the Jets lose despite Namath having a good game with 3 tds. Being great is about more than physical skills.
> Namath changed the game and also made a far wider
> audience want to watch it than ever had before.
> Imagine if we had a horse who was so amazing that
> hordes of new fans came to our sport just out of
> the possibility (but with no guarantee) to glimpse
> a flash of true greatness!
This is just opinion, which you are certainly entitled too. But its just that, an opinion. To say he changed the game, how?? There were many exciting players that people wanted to see, Namath was just one of many.
> If you want to equate Namath to a horse on a
> sheet....he is the type of horse who has thrown
> some unprecendented gem quality efforts but also
> has a lot of bounces and a lot of time off for
> injury (and poor efforts because he played through
> injuries). On balance, the whole sheet may not
> look so great, but those stellar moments
> (especially when viewed in light of the stellar
> moments of other performers of the same time)
> shine through as a thing of beauty
Yes they do, but you can find many athletes that you can say the same thing about. Bo Jackson comes to mind.
JB/Magic,
Maynard,Sauer,Boozer,Snell. Great players but those Raider teams had some great players too. And while I\'m sure those Jets lines were excellent ( I don\'t know as much about them as I do the Raiders, I\'ll take JB at his word), Shell/Upshaw/Otto/Buehler/Vella and later Shell/Upshaw/Dalby/Marvin/Lawrence were some of the best in history with 3 HOF players on them. Cliff Branch was my guy and one of the most underrated receivers of his era, Biletnikoff we all know about, Dave Caspar, Warren Wells, etc... What a great era.
Lets just say that both of those teams had some outstanding talent. Great comments regarding Snake too, another guy that should be in the HOF.
When asked who was the best quarterback he had ever seen, Vince Lomabardi declined to say.He did say,however,that he had never seen any quarterback throw a football like Joe Namath.
Think that sums Namath up, huge cannon, maybe a bit overrated by the fickle NY press/fans.So Cal on the money, imo, as to the affect that Namath and Jets win over the colts had to do with AFL credibility and subsequent merger.
Mike
Hi Paul,
Hope you are not forgetting Dwight White, Joe Greene, Ernie Holmes, LC Greenwood,Jack Lambert,Andy Russell,Jack Hamm, Mel Blount, Bradshaw,Swann, Stallworth, Franco(pisano) Harris and friends.Quess you will never forget the immaculate reception,hee hee! (won that lucky bet)
All generational things equal, not the greatest/talent team ever?? (understood that West Coast Joe Montana was the greatest quarterback ever)
Mike
We were talking offensive lines, Mike. You could certainly put Swann/Stallworth into the greatest pair of wideouts talk.
Magic,
Did not know it was O-Lines only.Didn\'t the Super Bowl KC Chiefs O-line handle the Vikings front four pretty easily?
Mike
Mike,
They sure did chew up the \"Purple People Eaters\" (23-7 was the final, as I recall). And the merger came around after Supe IV, so, I\'d have to think KC also gets some credit for raising perceptions of AFL quality.
The AFL was a blast. The Raiders/Chiefs games were epics. One of the best players I ever saw (perhaps the poster child for all the underrateds) was KC\'s Otis Taylor. Whattaya say, Paul? Could Otis Taylor play, or what?
Also, for offensive lines, you would have to put Washington\'s \"Hogs\" right near the top of any list.
Regarding Joe Namath - I think Charlie Brown said it best - \"Tell your statistics to shut up.\"
Anybody who saw Joe Namath throw the ball can testify that he was an OUTSTANDING passer. In my observation, the next/only guy that made me sit up and take notice as a pure passer on the level of Joe Namath was...Dan Marino. In his time, nobody threw a football better than Joe Namath. NOBODY! Nobody playing today can match Joe Namath in terms of getting rid of the ball. When you consider his surrounding cast, with the exception of a few years...plus his physical limitations...the stats definitely do not tell the whole story. Also, Shea Stadium was a wind tunnel in the winter. The quoted piece below says a lot, especially on the 4,000 yard thing. It\'s just like baseball, with Babe Ruth/Joe Namath in the short season vs. Dan Fouts/Roger Maris in the longer, asterisk season.
\"While his career statistics are not exceptional, Namath was the game\'s first true media superstar and Namath was the first NFL quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards during the 14 game 1967 season. This feat was not to be achieved again until Dan Fouts topped 4,000 yards during the 1979 season in a 16 game season. Namath threw for 4,000 yards under old rules that gave much less protection to both the quarterback and receivers. Namath\'s play on the field in the years before his knees seriously limited his mobility helped evolve the quarterback position and the NFL style of play from a run oriented ball control game to today\'s more open passing style. Perhaps the accolades of experts say it best. Hall of Fame coach Bill Walsh stated that Namath was \"the most beautiful, accurate, stylish passer with the quickest release I\'ve ever seen.\" Hall of Fame coach Don Shula stated that Namath was \"one of the 3 smartest quarterbacks of all time.\"\"
Yes, Namath had a great arm and a quick release, and yes he had probably more impact on the NFL than anyone else, and yes he was a cool guy. (Also has the same birthday as me and Clint). But in terms of overall ability, I\'ll look at his sheet-- the rest is \"turn of foot\", \"beautiful way of going\" stuff. It goes into the number.
Can\'t believe Stabler is not in the HOF. That\'s unbelievable.
Allworth/Garrison have to be mentioned for top receiver tandems, too.
As for the Raiders-- best football fight I have ever seen, by far, was Raiders/Chiefs after Davidson speared Dawson out of bounds, probably the cheapest shot I have ever seen. Ah, those were the days.
JB - 4,000 yards in a 14 game season would almost have to generate the best figure you could ever give a quarterback. That was 1967. Namath\'s sheet for 67-69 would probably be the best three year quarterback stretch ever.
Also TGJB...took me awhile to think of this...that Jets offensive line, best in history? That is completely nuts. One All-Pro on that line. Winston Hill. Others were good (particularly Rasmussen) but not great.
Plus Snell and Boozer were...good...but not great running backs (I don\'t think either one of them ever ran for 1,000 yards...best offensive line ever? Come on!). Namath threw a lot of INTs because teams were able to lay back against him since the backs really didn\'t make them pay. And Weeb Ewbank was the father of the third-and-long draw play EVERY SINGLE TIME!
I can only imagine what that Jets team would have accomplished if they had a Curtis Martin or John Riggins (who came a few years later). As it was it was Joe\'s Air Show all the way, and even when they knew it was coming they couldn\'t stop it...
Miff,
Franco may be a pisano, but I still hate him. And you should be barred for a week for bringing up \"that play\". Agree with SB IV, the Chiefs ran misdirection and traps that had the Vikings befuddled.
Magic,
Otis Taylor was a beast. Size,strength,and speed. He shook off that Viking DB like he was a little boy.
HP,
Namath was beautiful to watch. The rules and elements definitely affected him. Its so tough to compare stats of that era with today. Also, those QBs called a lot of their own plays. Today\'s QBs are like robots, and I really miss the days where a QB would dial up a play based on what HE saw/felt or what a teammate thought he could do (If Snake listened to Cliff Branch he would throw to him on every play, because Cliff thought he was open on every play). But its tough to get past all those INTs. Just like Favre, who is overrated because this guy has tossed careless INTs for the past several years.
JB,
You\'re right on point about all of that. And the Davidson play still amazes me to this day. Dawson goes down, about 3 seconds later Big Ben drives the top of his helmet into Dawson\'s back and is then subsequently jumped on by Taylor and about 5 other Chiefs while getting practically NO Help from his teammates. WTF were the rest of the Raiders doing??
Great discussion guys. I was just old enough to remember those days, and I think those of us old enough to remember those days are extremely fortunate. ( No cable/satellite TV, Summerall/Brookshier weekly highlights show with that very cool NFL Films music, no overpaid self absorbed pricks complaining about money/play calling YouNameIt). If your favorite team is still playing, Good Luck to you.
http://www.nfl.com/players/joenamath/profile?id=NAM415291
If you look at the last few years, you\'ll see why the career TD/INT ratio looks the way it does...
The best comparison I can make with Joe Namath is...Koufax. Except Koufax delivered just a little longer. Namath was out for most of two years in his prime, and when he came back the teams he played for were bad. He was never the same after that guy on the Colts killed him when he was doubled over (linebacker - Stan White? - what was that guy\'s name?).
It\'s hard to imagine what he would have done in this current \"roughing the passer\" era. They used to UNLOAD on him and he would be standing there like a statue.
There is probably someplace you can get the quarterback ratings for that era, even though they invented the stat later. I would love to know how Namath compared to others (like Roman Gabriel, who almost never got picked off, to take one). And that\'s leaving aside the question of winning %.
http://www.nfl.com/players/romangabriel/profile?id=GAB616560
Here are Gabriel\'s career stats. He was very good... He probably played...50-60 more games than Namath, so it took him like FOUR full seasons to put up just 28 more TDs and less than 2,000 more yards. These stats lack the upside of Namath\'s best years for sure.
Plus I would not say these stats do not demonstrate that Gabriel NEVER got picked off, although his ratio is obviously a lot better than Namath\'s...
Give it up Jerry. Namath was not over-rated. He\'s Hall of Fame all the way. Everybody recognizes the guy\'s limitations... He was only really healthy for like 4 or 5 full seasons...
Last word...
We could probably agree that stat-wise the best two from 60\'s were
Sonny Jurgensen
Johnny U
Happy New Year all...
Someone just sent me the lifetime QB ratings going into 2004. Yes, the more modern players are near top (Warner was #1 at that point), though Otto Graham and Montana are top 10.
Namath was 123rd. Pretty much everyone from his era was ahead of him-- Gabriel, Lamonica, you name it. Staubach, Griese, Jurgenson and Dawson are all at least 100 places above him.
HP--You do a great disservice to Koufax by comparing him to Namath. I do see where you\'re going with this--both were ouchy, had supreme tools and a short period wherein with those tools they achieved a level(s) of brilliance. But as brilliant and clutch as Namath was that one SB season, his overall performance that year or any other for that matter was never on a par with the brilliance of Koufax from what 1962-1966. Those five years he was arguably the best pitcher in baseball bar none--the argument,if there was one, was whether Marichal (underrated), Gibson, Drysdale or any other in that period even came close to Koufax that year. Remember Gibson\'s nosebleed season was I think 1968. That\'s an argument that Namath never got involved in--he wasn\'t the paragon by which others were measured at least not on the football field.
Namath was flamboyant and talented like Favre. Also like Favre, he had tendency to think his arm strength and desire could overcome bad decisions. Of course, they didn\'t.
But Koufax in that five year period was on much higher plane of accomplishment.
In my humble opinion, the 4 best \"arms\" I\'ve seen in professional football are Namath, Marino, Elway and Favre. They all had cannons, and they all threw a lot of INT\'s in their career. They all stuck around about 2 years too long.
For pure precision, I gotta go with Montana, but he had such a great scheme and supporting cast. Not even close to the others physically, but he could kill you rolling out either direction and buying time, plus I think Montana is the best I\'ve seen at throwing the ball on the run. A real pain in the ass for any defense.
Charm. I\'m holding a $2,000 Hard Rock Hotel Sports book future ticket on the Chargers to win it all at 10-1. I placed the bet in August. I doubt they\'ll beat Pitt or Tenn on the road but we probably all said the same thing about the G-Men going into Dallas and GB last year. Fingers are crossed!
Alan,
You are correct. I stretched too far on Koufax... You know what a gracious guy I am... Tell Jerry I will take Namath over Lamonica, Dawson or quite a few others on that list any day...if I\'m getting 67-69 vintage Joe Willie...
Happy New Year... HP!
Buck this was a good wager when you made it.
But this coming weekend since you are on the other side you are tugging on \"Supermans Cape\".
This will be one of those games that comes down to who has the ball last.
EVERYBODY HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
Smalltimer,
Marino\'s TD/INT ratio BLOWS AWAY the other three you mention. Not even close.
ST - Actually wrong...Favre is not as bad as I thought.
HP,
Lamonica\'s backup (Blanda) won as many MVP\'s as Joe Willie and Lamonica won the head-to-head in the Heida Game
http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2007/11/joe-namath.jpg
You were right on Philly ain\'t gonna lose, P\'dub. Any thoughts on today? I need some help here as I bet on Saarland in the derby!
drbillym Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You were right on Philly ain\'t gonna lose, P\'dub.
> Any thoughts on today? I need some help here as I
> bet on Saarland in the derby!
First game already started.
Being a Raiders fan, I can\'t stand either of these teams. Especially Pittsburgh. Steeler\'s have a mediocre Offensive Line, banged up QB, but a great Defense. San Diego is playing well, would pick for the outright win with LT and a healthy Gates. But that aint the case.
Low scoring game just like the first one, SD keeps it close (getting 6 pts, O/U 38 pts). I like San Diego and the Under. Call it 17-13 Pittsburgh.
If ever there was a bounce candidate it is the Chargers. I\'m not betting because I have no feel for the Steelers offense, but I predict the running back that had the huge game last week fumbles more times than he scores, and gets knocked out of the game.
Why would the Chargers be a bigger bounce candidate than any other team??
In recent years, WC round winners have had success on this weekend. Your guys last year, yesterday bye teams went 0-2, Philly is playing the Giants tough.
I can see maybe Sproles \"bouncing\" because he hasn\'t had many games like that. But the entire team bouncing??
Because they played their guts out, and went into overtime. Now cold weather (think slop),and that guy was their whole offense. He\'s not used to playing that much, not used to the pounding, isn\'t that big, and is coming off a gut buster.
Agree with everything about Sproles. But they handled Indy everywhere but the scoreboard. I thought Philly had the toughest game last weekend.
Per the Gold Sheet
-San Diego enters this contest by going 5-0 SU and 4-1 ATS its last five games.