According to the Bloodhorse.
wow
Cov,
Heard the same thing minutes ago. Too bad, but the owners will be very ok with this one in a financial sense.Had a bullseye on this one for the BC.Oh well.
Mike
Seperate topic, what did we think about Casino Drive yesterday?
Beat nothing but did it easily and showed he had plenty left when the inside horse made a move to him inside the 16th pole.
Clearly a gifted animal in what has suddenly become a wide open affair.
Is it stupid to think he can be part of the mix, especially now that we know he can run on the poly?
Hasn\'t run fast enough to win and always alot to ask a horse to do something he has never done before in what will be the toughest race of his life but he isn\'t your average horse.
miff Wrote:
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> Cov,
>
> Heard the same thing minutes ago. Too bad, but the
> owners will be very ok with this one in a
> financial sense.
they will do fine financially, but a chunk of BB\'s foot falling off is not what potential buyers of yearlings want to see.
and speaking of potential buyers of yearlings, here\'s a bit of news that\'s sure to have an impact on the sport down the road -
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601104&sid=a4sAgqSD_LIA&refer=mideast
things aren\'t looking good out there. not sure how Stronach is going to get all that debt rolled over.
It\'s a shame for racing , he\'s another that\'ll be missed . Wasn\'t Big Brown already \"unofficially\" un-retired after the Belmont ?
Cov,
CD is very talented but just how sound is another question. That race yesterday was not that impressive against the clock. I think he ran app a TG zero-ish judging from those who finished behind him and the track speed.The early pace of that race was very slow but I don\'t know how JB will handle that.
He\'ll be back on two weeks but the race yesterday could propel him as he seemed to handle the track beautifully. With BB gone and Curlin a question to run(and how fast he can run on pro ride)I think CD will get lots of money. After all, who is so tough in there?
Mike
\"Injury\" my butt. They\'re just scared after they saw Casino\'s win yesterday.
Good riddance to him and his over-rated reputation. It\'s because of him and his connections that racing is suffering. Either that or they knew the steroids wouldn\'t clear his body in two weeks...
interesting thoughts, thanks
My guess is BB\'s injury opens up the field quite a bit and that some of the Euors who were on the fence now come in and also some of the horses that were defecting to some of the other races come in as well (i.e. Mast Track could go in the classic instead of the mile for example).
Given questions about Curlin\'s ability to handle the poly, Go Between seems very interesting in this thing.
He actually sustained the injury after the work pulling up according to the stable manager. It was said that he worked very well along with Kip De Ville.
I think lots will depend on all the things that the yearling buyers look for.New stallions sometimes get a mulligan for the first two years if their babies look good.
Mike
Cov,
I\'ll be rooting for my small play, but if I lose, I hope that a pure slow turf horse wins.That will confirm the absurdity(?) of what the clueless empty suits did to racing with their knee jerk reaction to the surface issue.
Mike
mlnolan00 Wrote:
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> \"Injury\" my butt. They\'re just scared after they
> saw Casino\'s win yesterday.
>
> Good riddance to him and his over-rated
> reputation. It\'s because of him and his
> connections that racing is suffering. Either that
> or they knew the steroids wouldn\'t clear his body
> in two weeks...
My friend, you are the leader in the clubhouse for the most ridiculous statement of the day.
Good riddance to a horse that created more buzz for racing than any other horse this year. RAcing is suffering because of him?? I suppose he\'s responsible for synthetic surfaces, too many racing dates, overpriced yearlings, and the many other problems we have. Excellent commment.
It\'s just my bitterness over the Cats losing AGAIN to Spurrier is still lingering on into today...I can\'t stand that guy, he is our Kryptonite.
It\'s just depressing...Zarkava and BB in one day. Bummer.
Yes good riddance. Every bit of \"buzz\" generated by Big Brown was negative after the Belmont debacle. Plus all of the negative buzz does not really put his Derby and Preakness efforts in a good light (steroid aided, as everyone asks?).
Before the Belmont - Superhorse. After the Belmont - after being put on the spot, they pull the \'roids and he can\'t run back to his previous efforts. I will not miss him, his owner(s), or his trainer one bit.
HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes good riddance. Every bit of \"buzz\" generated
> by Big Brown was negative after the Belmont
> debacle. Plus all of the negative buzz does not
> really put his Derby and Preakness efforts in a
> good light (steroid aided, as everyone asks?).
>
> Before the Belmont - Superhorse. After the
> Belmont - after being put on the spot, they pull
> the \'roids and he can\'t run back to his previous
> efforts. I will not miss him, his owner(s), or
> his trainer one bit.
Geez, you guys act as if he\'s the only horse to have ever used steroids. Guess what, when you win the first 2 legs of the Triple crown you get more attention than those that didn\'t.
Every bit of buzz was not negative. And when BC day rolls around, and you won\'t get to see him face off against Curlin, tell me how much you don\'t miss him. Yeah sure. Continue to root and watch other horses that use steroids, have owners that are jerks, have trainers that bull---t you, and all the other things that you accuse this horse and connections of. I\'m not a fan of the connections either, but to say Big Brown missing the BC is a good thing is beyond ridiculous.
You can lie to us, just don\'t lie to yourself.
Since I have SC in the Classic I\'m a little biased, but I\'ll tell you what-- I would have been betting against BB anyway. I think he skipped running in NY after the Belmont for a reason.
Curious-- MIff, did you see the injury? Was it significant?
JB,
Did not see BB this morning. The injury was substantial according to Paul Pompa\'s Stable Manager. When we spoke he was very upset to say the least.He was there and said BB worked giant.BB tore off part of the bulb portion of the hoof. Not really a career ender for most but I believe he could not run as a 4 yr old according to the syndication agreement with Three Chimneys.
Your observation re not racing in NY went more towards the somewhat strained relationship between Tricky/Iavarone and NYRA. Seems they felt that NYRA did not bend over backwards for them.I\'m not partial but NYRA can be a bit standoffish on occasion.
If not racing in NY was a juice thing, I would think it would affect all of Tricky\'s runners but as you already know,anything is possible.
Mike
Yeah. Dutrow seems to be doing about the same at Belmont (at least in terms of win %), but Levine is at 12% (and only 14 of first 40 ITM) after 45% or so winners at Monmouth.
Yeah, noticed Levine. Sometimes a barn just gets \"raced out\" and sometimes my cynicism makes me think they put the juice away for a while to defray suspicion.
Mott horses suddenly seem alive and I noticed that he still has horses for Zayat. Don\'t know why some were \"shuffled\" about.Maybe making room for the 2yr old crop.
Perhaps related to the above, I read where several prominent vets in Cali have noticed \"no real effects\" after a short re-adjustment period for horses off steroids.Is that what Dr Arthur also thinks?
Mike
I haven\'t talked to him about steroids. My focus has been on TCO2, Clenbuterol, and getting blood frozen. They are taking blood for half the horses (randomly) for the BC, I\'m trying to get it frozen.
Okay P-Dub I\'ll bite - name ONE BIT of positive buzz about Big Brown since the Belmont. And I mean ONE positive thing. Between Big Brown and Eight Belles it\'s hard for me to imagine a season where the top horses were ever more of a magnet for negative speculation about horse racing. It\'s been an AWFUL year. And I could care less how well Big Brown ran in the Derby, given what came after. Horrible for racing, period.
I didn\'t say it was \"a good thing\" that he is missing the BC. I\'m saying I won\'t miss him AT ALL. Those are two totally different things.
I don\'t like to see a horse get hurt, regardless of who owns or trains him. I don\'t even see Curlin and Big Brown belonging together in the same sentence. Curlin has proved himself over and over again. Sustained excellence over years of work. This compares to Big Brown? You\'re kidding? Big Brown pulled up in June and went into self-imposed exile at Monmouth Park. Avoided the big dances at the Spa. All out in the Haskell to just beat nobodies and then went in...the Monmouth Stakes?!? This is \"positive buzz\" to you? To me he has looked like a washed up horse where the owners didn\'t know quite what to do with him for MONTHS. The best spin you could put on any of this was...he was injured or otherwise \"not himself\" they were trying to nurse him up to one last big dance. There are lots of other spins to put on this PD, and NONE of them are positive.
I can\'t imagine how ANYONE could believe that Big Brown would ever regain his Derby form. It\'s hard for me to believe that ANY seasoned horseplayers could view a BC Classic as a \"showdown\" between Curlin and Big Brown. That\'s how the guys who go to the track once a year might view it, but that\'s not how YOU would view it, is it? Come on.
He was washed up in June, and I\'m glad he is out without further injury (we all know it could have turned out worse). I wish him luck with the ladies.
HP
Jerry,
FYI - BIG BROWN hoof injury photo (property B. Livingston/DRF) (http://www.drf.com/images/brownhoof_300x300_101508.jpg)
Jim
Jim-- I saw that, didn\'t know if it was current. They had a picture of an earlier injury in the paper a few months ago.
Iavarrone showed class today in putting his suppot to Curlin in the big race after what is without a doubt his most miserable and deflating day. Nice turnaround and will no doubt help the fan base for Curlin.
Not a BB fan, but man I feel for those guys tonight.
I feel for those guys, the horse, and those who declared him one of the all-time greats. They were all big losers today.
The horse with another win may have stamped himself in some sort of greatness category but I can not imagine him on the same platform as Big Red and all of the others.
i agree 100%, its to bad he can\'t run, he would never have won, his connections were duckers. Curlin will not run, which leaves me with C. John and Smooth air, then again, I am biased.
HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay P-Dub I\'ll bite - name ONE BIT of positive
> buzz about Big Brown since the Belmont. And I
> mean ONE positive thing. Between Big Brown and
> Eight Belles it\'s hard for me to imagine a season
> where the top horses were ever more of a magnet
> for negative speculation about horse racing. It\'s
> been an AWFUL year. And I could care less how
> well Big Brown ran in the Derby, given what came
> after. Horrible for racing, period.
One bit of positive buzz?? For the last 2 months, the buzz has been about a possible showdown with Curlin in the BC Classic. It doesn\'t matter if you didn\'t think he could win, or for that matter if you didn\'t think he would run. Most fans were looking forward to this showdown. Thats the buzz.
> I didn\'t say it was \"a good thing\" that he is
> missing the BC. I\'m saying I won\'t miss him AT
> ALL. Those are two totally different things.
You are in the minority of fans that will not miss his presence at the BC.
> I don\'t like to see a horse get hurt, regardless
> of who owns or trains him. I don\'t even see
> Curlin and Big Brown belonging together in the
> same sentence. Curlin has proved himself over and
> over again. Sustained excellence over years of
> work. This compares to Big Brown? You\'re
> kidding?
Show me the quotes where I\'ve stated that Big Brown is a great horse, or is on the verge of proving greatness?? I love how some of you take things completely out of contect. All I said was that Big Brown missing from the BC was a bad thing from a fans perspective. I have never said he was great. Before the Derby, I was on record as saying BB was a bet against and i dismissed his accomplishments up to that point. It shouldn\'t have been that hard to figure out my stance on BB.
Big Brown pulled up in June and went
> into self-imposed exile at Monmouth Park. Avoided
> the big dances at the Spa. All out in the Haskell
> to just beat nobodies and then went in...the
> Monmouth Stakes?!? This is \"positive buzz\" to
> you?
Positive buzz is that he was still in training and racing after the Belmont. How many people predicted that he would never step foot on a racetrack again after the Belmont?? Whole lotta people. Not every fan is as hard core as you. They don\'t dissect and analyze every move. They were just glad he was racing. Do you think the fans at Monmouth cared that he skipped the Spa??
> To me he has looked like a washed up horse
> where the owners didn\'t know quite what to do with
> him for MONTHS. The best spin you could put on
> any of this was...he was injured or otherwise \"not
> himself\" they were trying to nurse him up to one
> last big dance. There are lots of other spins to
> put on this PD, and NONE of them are positive.
I don\'t need to \"spin\" anything. I\'m not president of the BB Fan Club, nor have I ever claimed to be. You took one comment I made, and you\'ve run 100 miles with it.
>
> I can\'t imagine how ANYONE could believe that Big
> Brown would ever regain his Derby form. It\'s hard
> for me to believe that ANY seasoned horseplayers
> could view a BC Classic as a \"showdown\" between
> Curlin and Big Brown. That\'s how the guys who go
> to the track once a year might view it, but that\'s
> not how YOU would view it, is it? Come on.
Again, I never said that either. The BC isn\'t about \"seasoned\" horseplayers. Its the biggest day of the year for racing. Many \"seasoned\" and \"unseasoned\" fans tune in. However, if 2 horses were to compete against one another what would you call it?? As far as regaining Derby form, its tough for any horse to repeat that effort with bad feet and missed training.
>
> He was washed up in June, and I\'m glad he is out
> without further injury (we all know it could have
> turned out worse). I wish him luck with the
> ladies.
You\'re entitled to your opinion. but since most \"seasoned\" fans viewed him as a bet against on BC Day I would think they are disappointed he won\'t be there.
HP...
If you were at Monmouth Park either of the times that BB ran there...you would have noticed the \"buzz\" the horse generated among people that don\'t usually go to the track on a regular basis. The place was more crowded on Haskell Day with people coming to see BB than on Breeders Cup day. Just one example of how whether you liked the horse or not...it\'s hard to argue he didn\'t generate buzz.
I agree. It brought out the younger crowd (and college drunks) and for 2 days this year Monmouth Morgue came to life.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
People stop to look at accidents on the highway too... Is that buzz? Others have decided I am in the minority. So be it.
HP,
Is there any \"gambler\" at all in you, or are you just a board poster (and I don\'t mean that in a negative way).
All the reasons that P-Dub named and the others echoed are good reasons for Big Brown to have been a positive influence in the sport. As much as I hate Dutrow (and I mean \"hate\"), his trash talking with the Curlin owners to get them to run was good for the sport, kind of like the \"weigh ins\" at boxing matches in the old days.
But even if those reasons don\'t mean anything to you, the opportunity for you to bet AGAINST this horse that you think is so over-rated, with his \"over-rated\" reputation deflating his odds and thus inflating everybody else\'s in the race, should be reason enough to miss him. That assumes you are a gambler.
But I find it funny that people on this board, Silver Charm and HP specifically, are critical of this horse. I have been using the TG figures for about 6 years now, but from what I remember Silver Charm and HP pre-date me on this board and thus if not users of the figs, at least have been aware of them for quite a few years. Big Brown\'s derby was the fastest TG figure in a derby ever. He basically ran five wide around the track and dusted the Derby field. That was right after he became the first horse to win from the outside post going 1 1/8 at the rebuilt Gulfstream park track. Then he followed the Derby up with a facile win in the Preakness. Ok, he bounced in the Belmont and the rider pulled him up. Instead of being retired after that race, which he was 1-9 to be by most of us, they followed it up with two more races, a gutsy if not spectacular win in the Haskell (where Curlin lost BTW) and then he switched his form to turf and beat a solid G2 type field on turf. I agree if falls well short of Secretariat, but the horse was awfully awfully good. Horses don\'t run like he did in the derby and very few dirt horses at his level transfer their form to the turf. Shit, the bounce in the Belmont is something all of us should have seen and some of us did. We are sheets players and it was his 3rd race in 5 weeks, of which the first one was the fastest derby ever.
The horse will be missed by most of us, for some of the same and some different reasons.
Last post for Big Brown. I won\'t argue what horse is great, that is too subjective.I will argue which horses have run legitimately fast. BB was exceptional for his age group and one of the fastest 3yr olds ever.Greatest, not greatest, not my department. Exciting,controversial(connection wise) a buzz for certain, unless you don\'t follow the game too closely.
You will not find any 3yr olds in history making their 3rd lifetime start, breaking from an impossible post at GP @ 1 1/8th mile and winning off in a big negative TG figure.Follow that with his Derby massacre and his Preakness waltz.The 2008 3yr old crop he beat up on is common for the most part, understood, but this horse ran freak like races more than once.He was very fast on his best days, threw in a bounce or something once but was NEVER outrun.
Unfortunately lost in the BB thing was part owner Paul Pompa,total class!
Mike
I gamble. Of course I would have appreciated BB in the Classic to soak up money, with or without Curlin. That said I will just have to try to find something else to play.
I\'m sorry but to me the whole BB story looked like a train wreck. I just don\'t see anything at all positive in it. I\'m glad other people got something out of it. I don\'t begrudge anyone their good times.