Big Brown didn\'t run today so nobody else out there cares about watching great horses. Right?
We were pretty lucky today to see Commentator and Indian Blessing run. Two for the ages. The later could have been a Very Subtle of her day if there was no filly division in the BC. The former may need to go west and take his shot. Pretty big pot to pass up.
Could be another Saint Liam/Big Brown vs Commentator on the front end out there. At least there is no bad blood between the respective trainers.
Zito and Baffert deserve a lot of credit for the outstanding jobs they have done with both these horses.
If the Press wants to call Big Brown one of the greatest of all-time well I can play this game too. Commentator is the best gelding I have ever seen. I don\'t go back to the Forego\'s or Kelso\'s so this guy sits at the top. Indian Blessing is the fastest sprinting filly since Very Subtle and may be more than a sprinter if they want to stretch back out again.
Enjoy these two. It may be a couple of decades again before you see another pair like\'em.............
Excuse me I forgot about John Henry.
I need to run stairs for a day.
Silver Charm Wrote:
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> Big Brown didn\'t run today so nobody else out
> there cares about watching great horses. Right?
Can you please give this a rest?? Honestly, you repeat yourself ad nauseum. We know how you feel, its impossible not to when you write this stuff every other day. Enough already.
Lava Man
Silver,
Your endless Big Brown bashing aside, the other part of your post is true. For those of us that are \"figure based\" assessers of horses, Indian Blessing and Commentator are very very special.
I personally have had very little luck betting with or against Commentator, but objectively speaking, one can make a case he is the fastest horse of all time, period. I know that sounds a bit crazy, but all those negative 5\'s are pretty imposing. Ghostzapper ran 2 negative 6\'s, so on his best he was slightly faster, but Commentator reached that stratosphere more often. I would love for Commentator to run in the Breeders Cup Classic and I suspect that the connections will oblige, if he is feeling. Unfortunately, the race will be on synthetic, but I won\'t go there.
Indian Blessing has also reached awfully fast figures, amazingly so, for a 3 year old filly. As much I do like the additional breeders cup races, I would love to see this filly try the best colts sprinting, which would have happened in the old days. Fillies sprinting against colts was one of my favorite bets, Safely Kept and Meafara a couple times each in the breeders cup,did well, plus very subtle.
Jimbo,
Don\'t forget Soviet Problem, who just got nailed by Cherokee Run at the wire.
What about Honest Lady, Xtra Heat and One Dreamer! Cashed them all!
Absolutely agree P-Dub.
Not only are 1/9 favorites who dominate overmatched foes not going to bring any
new blood to the game, they are going to drive some of the old timers like
myself away.
Silver-- instead of writing flowery posts praising watered down racing and
overhyped \"superstars\", why not take some time to review Forego\'s
accomplishments. Forego was a sore horse who often gave major weight to his
opponents,none of which prevented him from being Champion Sprinter in \'74,
Champion Older Male in \'74,\'75,\'76 and \'77, and Horse of the Year in \'74, \'75,
and \'76.
Lava Man and Commentator, nice horses, they do not belong in the same thread as
Forego, sorry.
I will agree that Zito has done a good job with Commentator, and it was
especially masterful using the horse slaughter issue as a reason for going to
the Mass Cap, thereby avoiding a showdown with Curlin next Saturday.
Good for you.
We were talking about sprinters. One Dreamer won the Distaff.
You guys are \"Brain Dead\" particularly you Pee-Stub.
It is ok to compare Big Brown to the Forego\'s of their day but nobopdy else around.
Who drew that line?
Commentator toyed with two fields Big Brown was ALL OUT against.
I propose a match race in Dec at CD between Commentator and Big Brown.
Tricky vs Nicky
SPECTRE vs Blue Blood
Now that is ratings grabber......
SC,
I think these comparisons get silly unless you specify the conditions.
How do you think Commentator is going to make out in the Classic when he either tries to outsprint or is forced to stalk and move past another legitimate Grade 1 speed horse that won\'t spit the bit so easily?
I think you\'ll see an outcome similar to the Met or worse depending on several things.
Commentator runs huge figures when he\'s not hurting and gets an easy trip on the front end, but he only tends to get those trips in weak spots.
IMO, BB is still pretty much an enigma because it\'s very hard to know where his form is heading or how to evaluate his turf race. If you know please tell me. :-)
In a match race with BB, I\'d take Commentator. But in the Classic with other quality speeds in the race, I think BB has an excellent chance of finishing ahead of him if he rates a bit, even if he also loses.
Silver--
One other point, and to me it is evidence of one of Racing\'s biggest problems.
What do Commentator, Indian Blessing and Midnight Lute all have in common,
besides being brilliantly fast runners who have hung up huge TG #s?
Answer-- none of them, for all of their brilliance, really have gotten much
recognition from what I will call (for lack of a better word) the mainstream.
Smarty, Funny, Barbaro, BB and Eight Belles (for the wrong reason)all recent
runners who attracted attention and caused a buzz outside of Racing.The buzz was
a result of their participation in the Kentucky Derby
My point is that there is too much emphasis on the Kentucky Derby. Racing has
done a bad job of making an \"Event\" out of the Breeders Cup series. I have said
in the past that on Breeders Cup Day(s), no other live racing should be held
anywhere in the US, an idea which was roundly rejected by almost everyone,
especially those of the \"there can never be enough races to bet on\" school of
thinking.
Horse Racing is like NASCAR racing in one way-- the signature event (in NASCAR
it is their race at Daytona, the first race of the year) is held early in the
season. That is the only comparison I will make between NASCAR (with their cult
following and brilliant marketing efforts) and Horse Racing (which has not been
marketed that well, if at all).
\"Answer-- none of them, for all of their brilliance, really have not gotten much
recognition from what I will call (for lack of a better word) the mainstream.\"
Someone who finally gets it.
There are issues or obstacles. The mainstream is shrinking so battles for even a square inch of that space is difficult. However NASCAR was able to do it by building a big enough broad enough fan base that hands were forced to give it coverage or those eyebalss would go elsewhere. ESPN is a good place to start with a robust website and 19 different cable stations of their own.
The link below is to the PP\'s of pretty damn good horse. Maybe even a truely great one. But he is not the only game in town and until some people wake up to that fact they will continue to do the sport more harm than good.
http://community.drf.com/formblog/files/BigBrownAdventcia.pdf
Flach I like you opinion on the Commentator/Big Brown match race. Don\'t you think Tricky would fit the role of Blofeld pretty good. Entering the paddock with a patch over his right eye standing next to \"Captain America\" Nick. As far as Big Browns condition goes why not just ask him. With all of the hype I\'m sure there are a couple of media types who are convinced he can also talk.
SC and Richie,
I don\'t think the average person has paid much attention to the best horses in racing other than the Triple Crown contenders and a handful of legendary geldings for several decades. There are some exceptions, but they are rare.
Saratoga did all they could to promote Curlin this summer (already well known), but from what I gather attendance was pretty disappointing.
The general public simply doesn\'t care about horses like Indian Blessing because it has no objective way of measuring how good she\'s been lately. That takes handicapping. That knowledge is what makes her of interest here.
I think putting on great races would help. So would keeping horses around for long enough to actually generate a fan base. But I\'m not sure racing is ever going to be more than a niche business unless it generates many more serious handicapping/gambling fans. That\'s pretty difficult when betting it is generally a losing proposition for most.
Geez Fkach,
Maybe commentator will get \"compromised\" in the BC Classic, like you thought he would get compromised yesterday by the 54-1 shot. Heck, he only won by 14. If he wasn\'t so compromised, he would have won by 18 or 20.
Same post, same theme, different day. Isn\'t there a \"pace board\" somewhere, where your theories about pace would be more appreciated?
As fpr paying more attention to you, as you suggest, so I can learn something. Hmmmm. Well, I am a believer that we learn every day of our lives, no matter how old or knowledgeable we may be, and I believe most people can learn SOMETHING from most other people. But you REALLY put that statement to the test......
I guess I could learn from you how to find place pool overlays, where a horse pays 2.40 instead of 2.30. If i want to learn that, I will call you......
>Maybe commentator will get \"compromised\" in the BC Classic, like you thought he would get compromised yesterday by the 54-1 shot. Heck, he only won by 14. If he wasn\'t so compromised, he would have won by 18 or 20. <
My pace ideas have obviously been beyond your comprehension for some time, but to enlighten you a little, I was suggesting that there is a huge difference between a Commentator\'s \"A\" game against the slug he faced yesterday and Commentator\'s \"C\" game against a slug like he faced yesterday. If he came with his \"C\" game (which I thought was unlikely but which was suggested as possible in the ROTW analysis), he was going to be in a lot more trouble that it looked because he was going to get that pressure.
In the Classic, his \"A\" game will be probably be compromised because he will be facing other Grade 1 speed horses.
This is easy to explain mathematically, but if you think about it for ahwile it may sink in.
Let\'s spare Jerry and leave this alone. If you have a problem with me, ignore me like many others do. I have no problem with that. But don\'t insult things or people you don\'t even understand.
Silver,
I would watch the name calling.
There are many derogatory names you can be called based on your many ridiculous posts. Idiot comes to mind but I won\'t call you one.
I responded to yet another crybaby rant from you regarding Big Brown. You remind me of a child complaining abot the same thing over and over and over and over....get it??
Pee-Stub I didn\'t call anybody a name I just told it like it is.
I made a point about two really good maybe special horses who ran yesterday, Commentator and Indian Blessing and nobody seemed to get real excited about it. What a shame. They have been extremely well trained by two of racings finest and recognizable names. These two guys deserve some real credit and recognition along with their horses but obviously they will get none of it from you.
Please put a handicapping post up one of these days. Please make a selection before a race sometime. Please bring up a controversial issue and debate it now and then. Stop thinking somehow you are making progress trying to establish yourself as the board bully.
Right now racing is about to enter the most exciting five weeks in the sport and I am pumped about it. As everyone else should be. Do us all a favor.
Disappear............
Fkach:
The general public was in front of their television sets on Sunday watching their hard earned dollars go down the toilet on the Giants, Colts, Patriots, and Broncos.
Put 100 gamblers in the room and 95 of them bet on the NFL, 5 bet the ponies and maybe one of them knows who Indian Blessing is.
Racing is a tough sell to the general population who flip coins every Sunday thinking that they know more than a Vegas line maker. A Big Brown is easy to market. Besides the fact that it\'s only one name for these geniuses to remember, this guy always covers the pointspread.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
There you go with the names again.
I\'m not the board bully, although someone pretty sensitive might think so.
I\'ve made handicapping posts, made selections, debated issues.
As for the most exciting 5 weeks, I\'m not the one crying over and over again about Big Brown or synthetic racing surfaces.
I\'m also the one who will be in attendance at Santa Anita in 5 weeks, not crying about a synthetic BC. I\'m also not telling people I won\'t bet it or attend.
What exactly do you contribute besides 10 posts a day of nothing?? You either bitch about Big Brown, moan about synthetic surfaces, suggest something ridiculous (entering Big Brown in no less that 5 BC races, pure genius there), start a thread and then respond to your own thread 4 more times because nobody else wants to, make some half assed selections, and then when you have nothing else to do you make comments on virtually every thread posted.
I don\'t post many selections because, unlike you, I don\'t need to make myself feel important by picking a winner in public. The only affirmation I need is my pocketbook. It says I\'m doing pretty well.
I don\'t comment on EVERY subject because, unlike you, I\'m not arrogant enough to think I know everything and would rather listen to others that know more than me instead of just adding fluff and blabber to intelligent conversations.
We\'re done with this. If you have anything else to say to me, send a private message. Just drop the knowitall act, its almost as tiresome as the whining I\'ve already mentioned.
Hard to argue about the next 5 weeks being pretty exciting--
1) The last five weeks of racing for the year at Belmont, where the leaves will
be changing and some decent races will be run, before NY racing shifts to the
world\'s largest pigeon coop, aka Aqueduct. Last winter on the inner tube, races
were conducted for $7500 claimers. How low can NYRA go this winter? Do I hear
$5000?
2) Keeneland--my opinion Fall Keeneland now possibly the best race meeting in
the US as the NY Greeders and NYRA\'s racing office have conspired to dilute the
product at the Spa. I know that all synthetic surfaces are not alike, but
playing the synthetic at Kee a good \"prep\" for horseplayers in anticipation of
the big event (same comment obviously applies for the five weeks of Oak Tree/SA
leading up to BC).
3) Possibly some playoff baseball in NY, as the Mets bumble and stumble towards
an elusive playoff berth (message to the interim manager--put a padlock on the
bullpen, chuck the pitch count, leave the starters in until their arms fall
off).
4) Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. A joyous yet confusing time, as I will
still be writing \"5768\" on my checks for the next few weeks.
Of course in NASCAR, like in all other major sports, you know that the drivers will drive in each and every race on the schedule. Horse racing doesn\'t have that kind of schedule and the horses are much, much, much, much less reliable as to if they\'ll even run at all. So the comparisons are meaningless and marketing of a similar type is impossible.
jma11473 Wrote:
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> Of course in NASCAR, like in all other major
> sports, you know that the drivers will drive in
> each and every race on the schedule. Horse racing
> doesn\'t have that kind of schedule and the horses
> are much, much, much, much less reliable as to if
> they\'ll even run at all. So the comparisons are
> meaningless and marketing of a similar type is
> impossible.
I do not agree. The Triple Crown races have been run at about the same time of the year, each year, for more than a century. When was the last time the Kentucky Derby was not run on the first Saturday in May? When was the last time there was no racing at Saratoga or Del Mar in August? The Breeders Cup Series has been run each fall for the last 25 or so years.
I know the breed is becoming, as you say, \"much, much, much, much less reliable\" but Racing\'s big events have yet to be scuttled due to a lack of equine participants.
Racing\'s big events (and the major race meetings) are scheduled well enough in advance to allow for aggressive promotion and marketing; the problem is that the marketing of Racing as a brand has never been done effectively.
Biggest difference between NASCAR and Horse Racing? Compare what percentage of
Americans have driven a car to what percentage of Americans have ridden a horse.
Ritchie, Keeneland in the fall is not as nearly as tough as Keeneland in the spring. But I didn\'t say easy in either case either.
No 4 1/2 furlong guesses but most importantly the broad base of shippers that Keeneland always gets in either meet come from more synthetic venues than they do in the spring.
Aqueduct in November may not be a nice place to visit but I sure never have minded wagering there.
When you have a Barbaro and an Eight Belles breaking down on National TV,it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get a Fortune 1000 company to add their good name to the sport.Unless a sport is covered on National TV in this country, it goes nowhere. Just look at hockey for example compared to the the other major sports.
Remember, there are people/organizations who feel that the sport is cruel to the animals. They have received substantial press and some backing from politicians.Corporate sponsors do not want to go near such controversy.
ESPN(cable) is the closest thing to a \"public\" racing channel and their sports head is NOT enamored with horse racing.The amount of time ESPN allocates to covering horse racing events is probably less than the coverage they afford to high school cheer leading competitions et al similar \"sports\".It\'s a business all about ratings and revenue, understandably.
Mike
Richie
I agree with you regarding Forego. The problem lies in the fact that many of today\'s posters never got to see this freight train rolling from the turn in. You usually get that Big Red crap, but you failed to point out that he had a poor jockey and trainer for most of his career and ran great in all kind of track conditions. Forego is the greatest no matter what Bud Delp said.
Heatherk
I think you underestimate the talents of the Forego team. He had two main jockeys,Heliodoro Gustines and Bill Shoemaker. My guess is your poor jockey comment was aimed at Gustines. I can\'t agree as he was aboard many graded winners in NY and was very good on the turf. I think he rode Stage Door Johnny among others. Forego had Sherrill Ward as his trainer at 3,4 and 5 and Frank Whitely at 6,7 and 8. Both are deservedly in the Hall of Fame in my opinion.
Best of luck at the windows.
Hooper