\"... it\'s understandable that NYRA officials were jubilant Friday, after years of being called corrupt and incompetent by Spitzer (who was forced to resign in a prostitution scandal), Bruno (who retired amid several ongoing ethics investigations), and former state comptroller Alan Hevesi (who was forced to resign for misappropriating state funds)\".
Ain\'t relativism grand.
good one Boscar
NYRA corrupt? not really, incompetent for sure. Rather lightweight group still running a multi billion dollar business.Similar Board, no new grand plan and still very little regard for the customer.One highly placed NYRA official was recently heard complaining about the attitude of \"some damned bettors\" He was referring to the lack of transparency raised by some whale type bettors,ie some of NYRA\'s biggest customers.
With all that is happening in racing(esp the smaller venues)NYRA could establish clear racing supremacy with some new blood and innovative thinking.No guarantee it would work, but something has to be attempted to attract new customers and retain the existing ones.
No doubt slot money will artificially be a life support but the \"base\" customer will continue in decline. Same old same old.
Mike
Excellent points imo - I\'m guessing those running the show should at least know how \" not to do it \" ...
As a side note , news reports are surfacing former NY Gov while D.A. may have hastened A.I.G\'s demise when the C.E.O was essentially out - and is when things went bad over there .
Racing needs \" Racing People \" to run the sport and it\'s subsequent business side ...
Miff-- here\'s a less than half baked idea, since it just ocurred to me. How about putting some of that slots money directly into the pools, instead of just purses? Like, 50k directly into the pick 6 pool every day? Aside from helping bettors, that would have a major trickle down effect that in turn would give money back to purses.
Very interesting concept, JB, though probably frought with regulatory peril.
But just brainstorming the idea: How about the track running a seperate pick six, pick seven, or pick all pool sponsered by slot money. As I\'m envisioning it, everybody who attends the track (or the slot operation during live racing) would get a free entry into this pool where winning would reguire picking six (or whatever) winners in a row cold. And the slot operations would make a two dollar contribution to the pool for each ticket submitted. It might make for some interesting carryovers, some good synerigistic energy, as well as providing a much needed incentive for people to attend the races live.
And if folks off track wanted to play into the pool, maybe a minimum $10 bet (for what you could get free at the track) This to prevent syndicates from dominating the pool.
Again, just brainstorming.
For a \"less than half baked\" idea, I\'d say it\'s brilliant.
If the horsemen don\'t like it, too bad -- they\'re playing right along side us in the mutuel pools, anyway, so they will get two shots at some of the same money.
JB,
Pool size counts, big time. Just look at the amount of money added to big pick six carryovers. Do you think the suits should get a hint? Apparently not.NYRA execs take umbrage at any original idea that is somewhat creative, as yours is.
I\'ve been told that I do not understand the complete picture when I make a suggestion.Having spent 28 years on Wall St in management positions, I feel I kinda know the big picture or would understand it,if properly explained.There are many very nice, loyal people at the NYRA but it needs an infusion of new energetic thinkers who know the racing game and what the daily players really want.
It was a very bad day when Bill Nader left NYRA, the guy listened intently to anything that made sense.
Then there was/is the issue that ANYTHING outside of norm must be approved by the New York State Wagering Board, a rather clueless politically appointed group completely lacking in anything but acting as obstructionists,imo.Re the new NYRA franchise deal,I am unaware if NYRA has more authority to promote the game as it see fit even if some initiatives may be a bit radical/experimental. When the patient is dying,everything should be tried.
In a day where daily players should be more appreciated/compensated on some scale,the attitude still seems \"screw you\".It\'s really a shame because in NY the game has some shot to advance with the slot money.The newly appointed racing czar John Sabini thinks racing should benefit NY State FIRST,all else second. He doesn\'t even know that is overwhelmingly the case already when you look at what the industry contributes to the States coffers.He should be a wonderful addition to the mix.
Mike
I love that they tell you that you don\'t understand the big picture, then don\'t tell you what it is. George Orwell would too.
I could be wrong, but I think Hayward will turn out to be all right, now that his hands are untied. We\'ll see.
Lets not get carried away here. Ok the guy is really good.
He hits Pick Sixes as often as Tiger Woods hits 300 yard drives. He can really write when he is not too bored with it, thinking about his next big score. He somehow has turned a damn good horse racing blog into a quasi Westminster Dog Show and it is still fun.
But this particular stand up comedy routine. Lets not go overboard.
With this crew, he had a lot of good material to work with.......
How will racing replace the old crumudgens with the new young demographic? Its already a deterrent learning that a lot of studying and learning experience goes into handicapping races. If only the suits realized this and work to make the track more accessible and attractive to the younger crowd and also women. Stop nickel and diming the patrons, dont penalize them for showing up. Sell the product (RACING) and you wouldn\'t need an excuse(GIVEAWAYS) to fill seats.
The smartest people in this game are people who make their living betting at the windows. Those people need to know every nook and cranny of this game, and they do. those people are on top of every segment of this industry...they have to be in order to win. Unfortunately, no one in \'upper management\' at any racetrack has ever had the thought to ask one of these people what\'s wrong with this game and actually listen to their advice.
I\'ve read many articles by Crist and on plenty of occasions thought to myself, \"that\'s a great idea\" and yet, very few of his ideas have ever been implemented. I think Crist might have been the driving force behind NY Racing getting dime breakage, but other than that, i\'m not sure if any \'higher up\' has ever listened or consulted Crist on any matter pertaining to improving this game.
I\'m not saying Crist is the smartest human on matters of horse racing, but compared to the most important people in the horse racing industry, he makes them look like people with a first grade education.
Miff -
Lack of transparency with respect to what? Just curious.
Bit,
A group of substantial players asked that:
1.Steward reviews of foul claims be broadcast over the track PA/VIDEO system for all to hear/see.
2.Trainers be required to report all procedures/operations performed on horses when they occur.Heavy fines for non compliance.
3.Stuck/hustled horses be identified in each race.
4.Attending Vet names added to program.
5.A historical updated vet list published at all times.
6.Pick six up dates as each race is complete(i.e.whats alive)
7.The amount wagered on sole winning pick six tickets and where the wager was made(no names, of course)
8.Affirmation that no player at any site is able to comb/surf the live pools with computer programs capable of place robotic wagers.
Thats some of the stuff. This is of major concern to a group that bets millions at NYRA tracks. Every bettor large or small should have the same concerns, imo. Never heard the empty suit from NTRA, Waldrop? mention anything like this. Hear he means well, just doesn\'t know much about the core players that bet lots of money.
Mike
Miff -
Thanks. Interesting. I\'ve always assumed that things like items 2 through 5 were the kind of inside information that big players have access to (through direct or indirect contacts with trainers) and I don\'t.
Interesting list.
I\'m not sure what the fear is of robotic wagers.
Do you know of a specific objection?
Actually it would be quite trivial to give ANYONE access to batch betting via direct computer connection, and they should actually have that.
There is a difference between computer \"batch\" betting and those who were permitted computer access to the live pools(at certain simo centers) with the ability to place hundreds of computer bets at the last second.No player sees the \"live\" pool like these guys were.
These computer programs place hundreds of late bets looking to break even or lose a few points on the total bet, add back the rebate creating an overall profit situation.The risk of losing overall over time is minimal.
Every time that was happening(no longer, I am told) the price you ended up with in that winning exacta was reduced by a point or so.Skimming off the players.
Mike
I am curious, while I find MIFF\'s list of suggestions interesting, what other tracks and/or racing organizations are offering any or all of this information? Is it just NYRA that should provide this info? Have you spoken to any of the powers that be at NYRA to see if any of this information could be provided and why or why not?
I am all for moving racing forward as much as possible, and providing as much information as possible to the bettor, and I hope that my employment at NYRA will be a positive step in that direction. For what it\'s worth, we have started a show on NYRA\'s Youtube Channel called \" Trips & Traps \" which will review a handful of races from each previous week and offer some of our ( being Eric Donovan and myself ) thoughts on some horses to watch and overall trip analysis. You can access the show from NYRA\'s webpage.
I can\'t speak for everyone, but I know I am always eager to hear realistic suggestions as to how things can be improved for bettors and really anyone involved in the game.
\"I am curious, while I find MIFF\'s list of suggestions interesting, what other tracks and/or racing organizations are offering any or all of this information? Is it just NYRA that should provide this info? Have you spoken to any of the powers that be at NYRA to see if any of this information could be provided and why or why not\"
Andy,
We have not spoken or seen each other in a while but you know me, we used to \"spar\" back when.The answer to your question is(which sounds a bit like you are shilling for NYRA) like most race track operators, they don\'t seem to have a clue or really care what the daily player is interested/concerned about.All racetrack should offer the info not only NYRA. Long before you worked at NYRA this was discussed by a \"players\" group with Bill Nader, he left shortly thereafter and nothing happened.Why doesn\'t NYRA take the lead? Who cares what other racetracks do?
Do you really think that other businesses that handle billions of dollars need to be told what customers want or dismiss suggestions with impunity. Now that NYRA has won the franchise, what profound changes will they make for us serious daily players. I read they appointed almost the same board of Directors.Now what?
If you wish to speak send me a private message. Like your \"trip stuff\" but too often they cover horses/races that are/were too slow to be relevant.
Regards,
Mike
I don\'t think I was shilling, per se, just wondering why NYRA is always the one that seems to get pointed out as the guilty party. I recognize that this doesn\'t solve the problem but I think it would seem fairer if your hope was that racing associations in general cover the issues you listed. Whether or not each and every one of them is realistic is another question.....for another time. I\'m certainly for providing as much information as possible as long as it is absolutely accurate.
I appreciate your thoughts on the show....but how do you know the horses are too slow until you see where they reappear?
I think that all players should have to verbally say their bets. A computer shouldn\'t be allowed to bet for you, you should have to say your bet to a live teller (if you bet on the phone). Or, if you bet online, you should only be able to place one wager at a time.
Also, another thing i\'ll bring up and i doubt this would fly, but limit wager amounts when there is 1 minute to post. Once the board says 1 minute, there should be a max amount you can wager....lets say 500 to win and 500 in exotics. If you want to make a really large bet, you need to do it so that it has enough time to get into the pools and everyone has the ability to see that wager and the board gets updated.
Also, every betting place needs to be diligent as to anyone trying to skirt around this rule. You want to bet big, do it with 1 mtp so the money shows up on the board before the horses enter the stretch. Racing has an image problem and everyone knows that a 5-2 shot who is loose on the lead almost always goes down to 2-1 or 9-5 as the field turns for home.
To add another thing to your list Miff, i\'d say that jockeys need to be weighed in front of the public with a digital scale before and after every race.
Another thing they can do is this. Weigh each horse as they enter the paddock (on a frieght scale) and record the weight. If a horse\'s weight fluctuates by a predetermined amount (either a gain or loss) that information gets announced to the public as a late change. If a horse weighs 50 lbs more or less than he did last time, wouldn\'t you like to know that?
If I gave you the chance to construct a batch bet with the FINAL tote, exactly how would you cover all possibilities without losing the takeout?
You still have to have an opinion about something in the race.
Unless I\'m missing something obvious, I think the whole batch thing is a myth.
Now, I do agree that being able to place wagers very late and by computer , is an edge, but it still requires some handicapping/information to capitalize on it.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a difference between computer \"batch\"
> betting and those who were permitted computer
> access to the live pools(at certain simo centers)
> with the ability to place hundreds of computer
> bets at the last second.No player sees the \"live\"
> pool like these guys were.
>
> These computer programs place hundreds of late
> bets looking to break even or lose a few points on
> the total bet, add back the rebate creating an
> overall profit situation.The risk of losing
> overall over time is minimal.
>
> Every time that was happening(no longer, I am
> told) the price you ended up with in that winning
> exacta was reduced by a point or so.Skimming off
> the players.
>
>
> Mike
Box,
The computer program of which I speak is very sophisticated and yes there is some very small handicapping involved.There is no guarantee but the guy/guys who were using it successfully were taking down six figures+ every year.
If you gave me the opportunity with this particular software linked to the live pools, it would be like stealing with a !0% rebate. Being able to place hundreds/thousands of bets in the last 30 seconds is NOT solely what this is about. Thats just the operational part. The totally disciplined computer software betting precise amounts very late with an average handicapper(this guy was better than average)is a recipe to beat the game for a decent living if you have $50k to start.One guy out of the Indian Reservation in Idaho(I believe) was averaging a profit with rebate of $1,200.00 per day.He did not win every bet or win every day but he did win a high percentage of the the time, with minimal losing days.This only works in large pools like NY,Cali and if another \"pool surfer\" showed up, the system was useless.
In any event, if you ever find out that some racetrack, simo center or whatever is allowing some whale computer access to the live pools, quit betting there, you\'re being skimmed.
Mike
Haven\'t got time to go into this now, but your analysis is wrong, having dealt with these programs. The program will maximize the results of your handicapping, whether they are good or bad. All it does is make the bets in the most efficient manner-- given what you put in as \"correct odds\" for each horse.
Jerry,
You did not deal with this computer software program which was developed in California in 2002 for one NY guy who paid 150k for it.It works precisely as I stated.The thing you were involved with is not the same, similar perhaps.
Mike
Miff-- trust me on this one. There are different versions of this, but it is a betting program, not a handicapping program. The biggest element is the 10% rebate. The program still has to get projected odds from somewhere. If you are good enough to lose only 5% against a full takeout (which is well above average), and the program makes your bets more efficient (probably wiping out the other 5%), then the rebate will give you a profit of 10% on handle. For the record, Wagner, who is one of the biggest (200 million handle annualy) works on about 7% after huge rebates, with a team of handicappers.
If you are minus 20% (average), the program won\'t help you either way, with the rebate you will be minus 10. But if you are -30, the program will maximize your results in the other direction, and the rebate won\'t save you.
And to work out the right odds on every horse in every race on a card (even your own right odds, which can be wrong by a lot) involves a whole lot more work than most people are willing to do.
JB,
Yes, similar. The program I speak of requires a hook into a \"live pool\" which is now banned by every major racetrack I hear.Most tracks/tote companies now have protective software computer \"cops\" searching for this betting profile with special emphasis on certain simo hubs/indian reservations/islands.
I do not believe that your venture was connected to the live pools,if it was, they would now ban those bets also.
Mike
I have a question. What makes you think that even without a direct computer feed,the same process cant be done \'manually\'.
A couple of fast fingered guys can punch in quite a few tickets in 1 or two minutes, after the computer spits out the play.
The whole key to this as Jerry states is the rebate and decent handicapping. If I would object to anything , it would be the favoritism of a fat rebate, not available to the average player.
Jerry seems to be familiar with what these programs seek to accomplish and I have no doubt that they are STILL being used, but manually.
Box,
Unless you are hooked live, you do not have second by second price updates,the best you could do without a live hook in is a 30 second update.No way to do this manually as you suggest,now even close to being the same operation.
Mike
What if the guy has zero handicapping opinion and just takes the win pool and uses those odds as his odds line?
Then he\'ll do exactly as well as the public, plus his rebate, which won\'t get him even.