WOW. I NEVER SEEN ANYTHING MORE INCREDIBLE IN 35 YEARS OF WATCHING RACING
WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW
LMAO.
I think they should consider retirement. Unless he was a very short horse, he\'s not even the same as he was this spring. Plus he drifted badly again.
I wouldn\'t be surprised if he wasn\'t short. Only one real good work at 6 Furlongs.
The peoples horse as they call him.
I think all of those thousands of fans cheering wildly for Big Brown (as the TV coverage said) as he returned to be unsaddled were paid by IEAH.
This is what the game has come down to when trying to manufacture plastic greatness.
Speaking of plastic how are Big Browns feet now.
Silver Charm Wrote:
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> I think all of those thousands of fans cheering
> wildly for Big Brown (as the TV coverage said) as
> he returned to be unsaddled were paid by IEAH.
I think you need a new jacket, white, with the sleeves and the straps that go in back.
How good was it? My guess is a thing somewhere between his first race as a 3yo and the preakness ratingwise. How does 0 2/4 sound?
Could this be an established form-cyclus that should see BB run two huge races in a row now? (if dutrow and company dare to start him again that is)
I actually think it might be. What do you think TGJB, is that estimate around the 0-mark way off?
This is how the horse looks when Dutrow is not putting steroids in him every 15th of the month. He is an very good horse in a so-so class. Just look at the results of the first place finisher of the Belmont in last weeks Jim Dandy.
I don\'t know what # he ran other than he is running thru pain with sore feet.
The horse tried as hard as he could. Put that on his sheet.
Just don\'t stamp it as one of the great ones.
Coal Play is still eligible NW2X, and two others had no business being in the race.
the way he was drifting st 9F he would have been at the outside fence at 10F.
Maybe they should consider turf, the way he ran and broke his maiden. Doubt he could beat his elders in his current form.
NC Tony
Silver Charm Wrote:
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> The peoples horse as they call him.
>
> I think all of those thousands of fans cheering
> wildly for Big Brown (as the TV coverage said) as
> he returned to be unsaddled were paid by IEAH.
>
> This is what the game has come down to when trying
> to manufacture plastic greatness.
>
> Speaking of plastic how are Big Browns feet now.
>I have two channels of the Big Brown Network on and I am trying to watch the >Haskel.
>Should I go to the Twin Spires video for some racing coverage and not an >infomercial.
You know Silver, sometimes you can really be a pathetic cynic.
Thats being kind.
Many of you bitch and moan about horseracing, it isn\'t in the sports mainstream, needs a boost, blah blah blah.
ESPN devotes a Sunday afternoon to showcase the Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner, a horse that made people tune in and watch the Belmont producing large ratings.......and you want to make wisecracks about the entire production. He\'s also on the front page of the ESPN website as well as having a segment on Sportscenter. Who should they have focused on?? Cool Coal Man?? Perhaps Magical Forest??
They had 45,000 fans show up for the Haskell. I doubt they showed up to watch Silver Tree ( with all due respect to that fine horse). Who in the hell do you think they were rooting for?? Your comments about being paid for by IEAH, despite in all probability being tongue in cheek, are just asinine.
Manufacturing \"plastic greatness\"?? Despite the incredibly lame term you apparently came up with all by yourself, wouldn\'t you agree that Big Brown had been pretty impressive up to the Belmont Stakes?? And taking into account the disappointing effort in the Belmont, wouldn\'t you also agree that this race was worthy of the hype and anticipation despite the relatively weak field?? Adding in the possibility of retirement if he had managed to lose, this was an important race for horse racing fans whether or not you are a Big Brown fan. The Breeders\' Cup will be a better event if he manages to race that day, and will also make for a better wagering opportunity if you like others that day.
Guys like you bemoan the state of racing, the lack of coverage, the lack of respect by the general sports public. Yet at the same time guys like you, self proclaimed lovers of the sport, espouse your cynical views to tear down one of the biggest attractions in the sport you claim to be a fan of. Nice. You then litter this board with some of the most senseless, useless crap around. I guess you\'re trying to be the Chuckles The Clown clone??
You obviously dislike this horse. Thats your choice. But sounding off the way that you do makes you sound like an idiot. And its not of the plastic variety either. Its real.
Do us all a favor, join Congaree1 in Miami during Breeders\' Cup week.
From what i read today the horse won a million dollar race again. opps thats 4 for 5 in million dollar races. maybe the horse isn\'t great. but 4 outa 5 ani\'t bad.
where do i sign up for one of those?
P-Dub
I\'m going to respond and leave it at this. Those were some pretty personal insults you tossed my way that you will not see going from me back at you. What do they say class always tells.
I don\'t have any problem with the horse. He tried hard but his feet are hurting him and he could not perform at his best. I have a big problem with declaring greatness when it is not there. If this is done to create interest in fans then just say.
\"We are making all of this hype up to get people to watch\".
If a 60 day run from the end of March until mid-May makes someone one of the best in the history of their respective sports something is not right. There is so much money involved in the hyping of a good three year old to build Stallion Syndication Fees we have people handing out hats, sponsoring handicapping shows with their own horse in it, hyjacking TV coverages, (Where was the Zito interview yesterday?) and on and on and on. That wasn\'t all a joke about the paid fans. This is how bad it has gotten with the money involved it is only a matter of time until people begin bringing there own cheering sections.
PS-You still have a problem with this call Jerry. Tell him to give you my email and number and look me up (and anybody else who wants it for that matter). I stick by these words.
P-Dub Wrote:
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> wouldn\'t you agree that Big Brown
> had been pretty impressive up to the Belmont
> Stakes??
P- Dub:
My feeling is that if Big Brown had been born one year earlier, Street Sense,
Curlin and probably Hard Spun would have been ranked above him.
As to the coverage by ESPN, if the Haskell had been run in the middle of
football season, ESPN wouldn\'t have been within 100 miles of Monmouth Park
unless there was a Rutgers home game.
Regarding the 45,000 racing fans at Monmouth Sunday, my guess is that 35,000
of these fans will not be back to the races until the 2009 Haskell. Do not
confuse Monmouth Park\'s ability to market its signature event (which includes
the payment of appearance money to the human connections of the marquee horse,
which has been going on for years and undercuts what little integrity racing
has left) with any great love that the public has for this colt. And if they
gave away a hat or a t-shirt or a folding chair, who knows how many people were
really there?
Big Brown\'s biggest contribution to Racing might be that he was trained by a
man with multiple suspensions who openly admitted to training the colt on
steroids, and that some changes (which may have been coming anyway) might be
made in the way performance enhancing substances are used in Racing.
Sorry if this sounds cynical, but BB has had a great 3YO campaign, as did Smarty
Jones and Point Given-- neither of whom should be mentioned in the same breath
as the great colts of the 1970s, and neither of whom left a long standing impact
on Racing.
Just one man\'s opinion.
With a Beyer of 106, the fig looks app neg-2 if Jerry agrees. His bearing out thru the lane probably has to do with how BB presents getting tired or feeling discomfort or something, no one knows with certainty. Often, a horse won\"t show the same thing in the am going slowly but this horse has in fact done this same bearing out in the am.Tricky does not know why.His feet were better than ever going in,forget the feet unless they got busted up in the race.
Not having had a real race since the Preakness(BB got nothing out of the Belmont)he had tough hard fought win which may propel him next out.He chased a fast pace pace and ran down a horse that ran his lifetime best yesterday on a surface that was honest but kind to speed.Those salivating to bet against next time better have a good alternative 3yr old. I have not seen one that would not have had to run a lifetime top to handle the \"bad\" BB of yesterday
Within the next week or so, BB\'s racing future will be decided. The ugly win may force their hand to retire him unless he came out totally sound and is tearing the barn down in the coming days.
With such a valuable asset, I can\'t imagine why they would risk him on the racetrack again even if he was a short horse yesterday.
Mike
So BB ground out this one...and that makes him a bum?
SC, what would you have said after Secretariat\'s Wood, when he got beat by a sprinter and really looked like a bum?
Huh? No way he could win the Derby, right? Right!
BB looked overweight in the post parade, probably ran without steroids (which many of your favorite champions have used for decades), caught an impossible Monmouth track surface....and still won. This horse and his connections deserve a lot of credit for what they pulled off yesterday.
I should say, for what BB pulled off.
Alm,
Can you explain what you mean by an impossible Monmouth surface? Not sure what you mean there.
NCT
Here is a horse that has banked over 3 million! Enough with the ball busting. I bet their isn\'t one person on this board,that wouldn\'t want to own him.
Big Brown acts like a horse who wants to be on the lead. Yesterday, he looked exactly like he did breaking in the Belmont. He wanted the lead in both races and was TAKEN BACK. The fact that he ground out the win yesterday without a serious effort on the track since the Preakness shows me 2 things: he was a short horse yesterday,and he was stiffed in the Belmont. He is indeed a great horse. And if I know Rick, this horse - should he stay in training - will be even better next time out.
richiebee Wrote:
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>
> As to the coverage by ESPN, if the Haskell had
> been run in the middle of
> football season, ESPN wouldn\'t have been within
> 100 miles of Monmouth Park
> unless there was a Rutgers home game.
You can say that about a lot of events. There\'s a reason people don\'t go up against the mighty NFL.
I don\'t think its an accident the Breeders\' Cup is run on a Saturday.
As far as the Monmouth attendance, this isn\'t unusual. Racetracks routinely get their biggest draws on event days. Haskell being one of them. To assume that all of them are unaware of the participants is being harsh. Maybe \"cynical\".
My last 2 cents also.
Whats with your fascination with this \"best in history\" stuff? Because a couple guys on tv say it, it ruffles your feathers that much?? Ever watch an ESPN telecast featuring baseball, football, etc... Many fans can\'t remeber back 20 years ago about anything. Most top performers of today are talked about as the \"best ever\". Tiger is the best ever. Brady is one of the best ever. On and on.
They are currently running a \"best of\" series on ESPN about every MLB team. Yesterday was the Cardinals. Top 3 selected by the ESPN crew was Musial, Gibson, Brock. You know what the fans said?? Musial. OZZIE SMITH, Gibson. Ozzie freekin Smith. Didn\'t know they grew stuff better in St. Louis than No Cal. Don\'t take these \"greatest\" things so seriously.
Regarding the coverage, Zito should have been interviewed. No doubt. But your negativity wears thin, and despite your stance on this particular horse, many things that you stated are ridiculous (fans paid to cheer?? cmon).
Don\'t need your number or email. I can send you a personal if need be. But doubt it, I listen to enough people complain at the job.
I was there on Sunday. I thought he was soundly beaten turning for home. Whether or not he was 100% fit (I think he probably wasn\'t), he really dug deep and found something more, something almost other-worldly. I was more impressed with this race than any of his others. The crowd was going completely nuts! I haven\'t seen that much excitement over a horse in a long long time. As far as who he beat, the final time was very legit and speed held well, so I view his wide finish even more impressively. He didn\'t drift out that much if you watched it in person. Kent was just letting him float out there to see if he could find something more and he did. Again, I was very impressed.
I\'ve had some horses race there...there are several important idiosyncracies...first, it can favor speed to an unholy extent, especially in routes when there is lone-speed. As there was in this Haskell.
The real problem isn\'t just that the track surface favors speed, but it doesn\'t seem banked to the same degree as other one mile ovals and if you are tracking the speed you tend to drift in the turns...which is very very bad.
For what it is worth, in sprints, you are usually DEAD trying to circle the speed in the turn at Monmouth. You better be close up in front and tight to the rail if you are going to run down a speed horse at this track.
So the horse wins and does not win by 20 and he is a bum to some on this board? He did show a little more heart today though the field was not the best. And how many of us thought he was beaten as they turned for home? I did. I was downstairs in the club house at Saratoga and the place exploded as he went on by for the win. It is OK to cheer for him, even if you dont like the rest of his crew. Some should lighten up.
Alm,
Thanks for that explanation. I was not sure if you thought there was a bias or if it was the typical tendencies that track plays to. I got a much better answer from you.
All in all, one of the posters here said it best, Gee where do I find a horse that can win 3 or 4 million dollar races. To say he is one the best of all time is still a stretch in my opinion, he has time to prove otherwise.
NC Tony
Lest we forget, this is still, imo, a very sub-par crop of 3yos. Just peruse the results of the 3yo graded stakes and you will see that Big Brown can be called dominant amid mediocrity. Just imo, but to crown him with greatness is a huge stretch relative to equine history. He did put in a gritty run Sunday, but for two-lengths there\'d be another tune sung. Wired by Da Tara and nipping Coal Play? Please- that barely meets the standard of mediocre in my book. I didn\'t bet the race- no ax-grinding aforethought. Comparable to Curlin? only that they both have 4 legs! lol
Let me set the record straight. I have nothing against Big Brown. Think he is a pretty good horse.
Question for the audience.
Who was better Barbaro, Big Brown, Point Given, Smarty Jones,War Emblem (accomplished as much as Big Brown so far), Thunder Gulch (accomplished more than Big Brown so far)?
After you have made your choice then decide does that one belong as one of the five or six best three years olds of the last 25 years?
By going back 25 years we are including Alysheba, Sunday Silence and Easy Goer, the 97 crop the 07 crop and others.
I will be more careful in what I say. Others when they label Big Brown an alltime great horse should also.
That being said it still doesn\'t means you shouldn\'t go to the track and root for or against him when he is running. Depending on which way you bet of course. Just make your own judgement and ignore the marketing campaign.
Silver,
My interest in the sport blossomed in the 70s. The 70s were a time when witnessing legitimate greatness was practically an annual right. IMHO, the horses you mentioned don\'t even belong in the same chapter as Secretariat, Forego, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, Spectacular Bid, and Ruffian. In those days, a lot of Grade 1 races were like the Breeder\'s Cup is today. They were deep high quality contests with the best of multiple generations taking a shot. The typical campaign also might mean 7-10 starts. If you dominated a season, let alone 2 or 3, you were truly great.
These days the competition is so watered down because of the early retirements, shorter campaigns, long spacing between starts, opportunities to avoid top competition etc... greatness is a lot harder to prove.
I think at least some of the fan base longs to see a truly great horse have a 10 race campaign with 3-4 weeks between starts taking on all comers while spotting weight and making the competition look foolish!
IMO, it\'s that desire in part that leads to all the premature hype.
As soon as a horse puts up one or two very fast figures or demonstrates some other superior but less tangible qualities, everyone jumps on the bandwagon hoping he\'s the answer to our prayers that it can be like the 70s again.
I think some of the prematurely retired 3YOs probably would have gone on to greatness had they actually had a chance to prove it, but we\'ll never know.
Others, like Invasor and Ghostzapper were also clearly on their way.
Big Brown displayed versatility, terrific speed, the ability to overcome rough trips, and a fondness for multiple surfaces - all in a very short period of time. The same was true of Barbaro. IMHO, even though neither demonstrated real greatness, it\'s not hard for me to see why people were hoping.
I mean, what isn\'t overhyped these days? There are 500 channels and they need to fill the airtime. Anything that shows some sign of greatness immediately gets overhyped.
Also, as others have written, if we\'re looking to the standards of yesterday to define greatness, we\'ll never have another great horse because no one is going to go 13 for 14 on a yearlong campaign carrying heavy weights. And because we\'ve gotten so cynical due to the hype, if it ever did happen everyone would say, \"Yeah, but who did he beat?\"
In case anyone missed it, Bailey said on the Arlington Million broadcast that BB wanted the lead in both the Haskell and the Belmont, and that Dutrow told Kent to take the lead, but Kent did not follow instructions, he did as he pleased and took BB back.
Well this has certainly been a Soap Opera and this just adds more to it. I believe Bailey even though I am not sure how he knows Big Brown wanted the lead unless he talked to him. Which at this point considering all of the hype, people will soon be claiming he can do that also.
Found it also interesting when Jeanine Edwards interviewed Kent she asked him about Big Brown on the turf and the reply was, \"Big Brown is a turf horse who has been running on dirt\". Considering how bad the American Older Turf Horses are Big Brown might be able to win the Champion Turf Male award. Because he is not beating Curlin on dirt and this why they are so busy ducking him.
Also the ESPN Horse Racing Team has had a good year I just wish Randy Moss had not become so muted in his charge for reforms. He was really vocal on Preakness Day after Eight Belles and now not a peep. Nothing will get done if the pressure of public perception isn\'t visible and looking over the shoulders of the powers that be.
As in you better do something..........
It\'s not all that hard to see if one is a student of a horses body language. I\'ve had a few good teachers in this area, many of them jockeys. It becomes second nature after a while. Kind of like looking at 2 hole cards really quickly and you know you have pocket aces.
I agree with your comments on the ESPN crew. Randy Moss is very smart and knows what he\'s talking about. But in horse racing, politics often times over rule common sense. Even if you are right, it\'s usually best not to rock the boat if ya wanna keep your job.
Looking forward to seeing BB on the turf.
What horse?
Big Brown