http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/05/22/2008-05-22_the_day_at_the_races-1.html
\"All my horses race within the rules of racing,\" said Pletcher, who won last year\'s Belmont with the super filly Rags to Riches.
Pletcher wouldn\'t answer the question of whether Cowboy Cal and Monba raced on steroids in the Kentucky Derby won by Big Brown, but hopes that the rules governing steroids will be the same throughout the country
Bit,
Did he have to answer the steroid question? Many of his horses are barrel chested,thick necked and muscular thru the shoulder area like Barry Bonds. I noticed that years ago.Amazing that he\'s 0-30 in the derby, no factor in most BC events, with a multi million dollar barn to boot.
Absolute proof, imo, that he does not have the magic bullet as claimed by many here.
Mike
He said a lot but also said nothing.
When asked if his horses used Steroids he declined to answer.
He said Regulators need to quit talking and start acting.
He said his horses race clean.
Then why was he serving a 60 day suspension a year ago last Jan-Feb
Yeah sure, steroids don\'t effect horses like they do humans. Why does he think they can ban a drug for human use based on animal studies? I\'d like to see Pletcher cite a veterinary text that says that anabolic steroids are not performance enhancing and dangerous in equines. Anabolic means body building in any species.
Pletcher won\'t answer the question of whether his horses run on steroids and Dutrow practically brags about it. On the other hand, Dutrow claims ignorance of their effects and Pletcher tries to come off as an expert with no proof.
They both stink.
Bob
About 10 years ago I was having some sinus/allergy problems. I went to see a physician who gave me a couple of medications one of which was a nasal spray.
When I went back for my check-up I told the Doctor that some of the drugs he gave me made me feel like Superman.
He said, \"The Nasal Spray contains a Steroid. That\'s what it is\".........
All drugs are not the same.
All anabolic steroids are not the same.
All species do not react the same to the same drugs.
Which specific drug you are talking about matters.
The dose and length of use of that drug matters.
For the thousands of horses Pletcher runs, as long as he\'s been running, he\'s had one positive.
That positive was for a miniscule overage of mepivicaine. An amount of mepivicaine so small, that that level couldn\'t possibly affect the horse, a level that was, immediately after Pletcher\'s appeal, changed to be legally allowable, as it has zero possible impact on performance.
If you feel like superman on the tiny amount of steroid in a topical nasal spray (which is a corticosteroid, not an anabolic steroid) I have some great placebo pills to sell you
Yep, then he must not be doing anything. Because racing would never allow trainers to use drugs which are performance enhancers.
Hi Sight,
You will never convince the conspiracy theorists or the Kool Aid drinkers,I\'ve tried re TAP.He ran a $3.2 Million filly yesterday,a NW1x in NY that got swallowed up by 7 lengths in the stretch in spite of the steroids and all the other illegal stuff he allegedly uses.
You better contact him, I think he could use some held from a professional vet and knowledgeable horse person.
Regards,
Mike
Miff-- let me get this straight. A few posts back you said you have known for years that Pletcher was using steroids. Now you are saying what?
One of the problems, as I have said umpteen times here, is that trainers MAY not be breaking the rules, but the rules themselves allow them to move up horses with drugs. I mean allowing steroid use, an artificially high threshold level for a TCO2 positive, every place but California allowing Clenbuterol to be used as a raceday drug, etc.
If they go to a 34 threshold for TCO2 (and there are ways to do that and still protect the innocent), test quantitatively for Clenbuterol like California does, ban steroid use close to a race, and start freezing blood samples, you will see some big changes in winning percentages.
Pretty ironic that we are seeing these posts at the same time the track and field stuff is breaking.
Pletcher has very professional vets
All we can do is keep supporting the development of increasingly sophisticated testing methodologies - cobra venom, illegal steroids (and a horse on these drugs regularly is pretty dangerous, btw, let alone being too muscle-bound to be fast), blood doping, etc.
JB,
You must know that MANY outfits use legal steroids, including TAP.On point, steroids are legal and found to be beneficial by several well informed vets.Now illegal/abused/designer stuff are the ones they must stop.
The ones that help these animals recover and eat should be left alone.Whats the problem with that?
mike
Miff--there is no problem IF THAT\'S ALL THEY DO. If they do other things, the game becomes (or rather has become) a chemistry contest.
JB,
Yes I agree, and that is why people that spew innuendo about trainers who have no Class 1 positives should put up or shut up.
Mike
Miff,
It\'s not hard to stay clear of Class 1 positives unless the trainer and vet are dumb as a post.If TCO2 or Clenbuterol aren\'t even tested for or when they do test, the cut off for TCO2 is at 39 or such other outrageous number, why even run the test?
The problem has never been steroid use as a reliableation aid for horses that have been injuried or that are not in training.
The problem is EPO,Darbepoetin, etc and all the other blood packing steriods that are proteins and can\'t be easily detected being used also. Not to mention the designer roids that can\'t even be detected.
Is Winstrol and Lasix masking anything else or do you believe Dutrow, Mullins and the other trainers that have been convicted would never do anything that is not currently allowed?
Rose,
I don\'t buy into conspiracy theories, White Mercedes nonsense.Are there rogue vets, I would guess yes but have no first hand knowledge. I know enough about it that you don\'t need a vet to administer illegal/undetecable designer stuff or shakes. The crooked chemists also provide \"how to\"instructions.
Mike
Primarily, I play the cheats, cause that\'s where the money\'s at.
I probably play more cheats at more tracks than anyone anywhere.
If a trainer is an incredible \"talent\" at River Downs, or Saratoga, it makes no difference to me. The best ones always overmatch the cripples in the field.
The jump up guys are just like third base coaches. They give all the signs, all the signs, but it doesn\'t mean nothing until they give the indicator. Eventually they show their hand when they win.
People think only horses are distance specialists. Same holds true for trainers.
They win with the in-between distances because they train for that specific, odd distance.
Mike,
I usually agree with your posts, but how can you say, \"The ones [steroids] that help these animals recover and eat should be left alone. What\'s wrong with that?\"
I\'ll tell you what\'s wrong with that: By allowing these animals to race on steroids, you are enabling infirm/unsound horses to perform well, possibly at the expense of some horses who would beat the medicated ones if they all had to run only on hay, oats + water. And what happens to the horses who perform well? They go to the breeding shed.
>Miff--there is no problem IF THAT\'S ALL THEY DO. If they do other things, the game becomes (or rather has become) a chemistry contest.<
You brought back a memory of a lost friend. My friend Gene was one of the best pool players that ever lived. He used to always joke that the major tournaments weren\'t about playing great pool, they were about \"chemical warfare\".
Dlf,
I will only say that steroids have little to do with helping infirm or unsound horses race. Epo, shakes, super designer pain meds and a host of other things, yes, steroids no.
As far as the breeding shed stuff thats another story that everyone is now reading about and running with.It\'s all very old news that has been around for a very long time which is now being looked into by the same disingenuous people in the racing hierarchy who knowingly permitted it all along.
Mike
Look when the guy who only a year or so ago was Public Enemy #1 and is now maybe becoming Public Advocate #1 then maybe some things get done
And maybe we have reached the Top.............
Didn\'t he have another positive? But anyway, during his appeal the court also found that the mepivicaine (a drug whose only purpose is as a nerve blocker) could not have gotten into the horse by any means other than by injection.
You\'ll recall Pletcher\'s absurd argument that the horse must have \"inhaled\" the substance from another horse in the stable. Lost all respect for the man after that.
Bob
Right Jerry. This the point in the Pletcher positive. Even if the horse has a level which is now below the limit, it still had a substance which does not belong in a horse on race day. The fact that the level was too low was probably because they just got the dosage wrong when injecting. The intent was clearly to improve performance.
They got it right in Hong Kong with their zero tolerance policy. A horse should not have any amount of a performance enhancing substance which, as the court found, could only have gotten into the horse from an external source.
Bob
I thought Dutrow\'s comment that he has been administering Winstrol since a vet recommended it a few years back spoke volumes.
I thought Plech\'s figure jump with Lawyer Ron Spoke volumes.
I thought Plech\'s refusal to comment in regard to steroid use with Monba and Cowboy Cal spoke volumes.
What do/did Plech, Dutrow and Frankel have in common?...Same vet, same time frame.
I thought Larry Jones insisting his champion filly be tested for Steroids and coming back clean spoke volumes.
I think there are other trainers out there that don\'t administer drugs to horses to improve performance, regardless of whether those drugs are \"currently\" legal or not. I think those trainers are the trainers you want to train your horse. I think those trainers are the ones you want to bet upon. I think the trainers doing it without drugs are real horsemen. I think Todd Plecher is a disgrace and I think his apologists are enablers.
It still takes a special horse to win the Derby. But it takes a real piece of shit to pretend he\'s doing it with attention to detail.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Sight,
>
> You will never convince the conspiracy theorists
> or the Kool Aid drinkers,I\'ve tried re TAP.He ran
> a $3.2 Million filly yesterday,a NW1x in NY that
> got swallowed up by 7 lengths in the stretch in
> spite of the steroids and all the other illegal
> stuff he allegedly uses.
>
> You better contact him, I think he could use some
> held from a professional vet and knowledgeable
> horse person.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mike
Chuck,
Lay off the Kool Aid, you are talking about a trainer and subject matter you have no clue about.
Mike
these people sure think they need an edge. why dont they go steriod up all the jai-alai players and corner the market? out of they limelight and nobody could give a rats ass. if i ever saw this clown in person id have to kick his ...^$%#%$$%&%^#
>> But anyway, during his appeal the court also found that the mepivicaine (a >>drug whose only purpose is as a nerve blocker) could not have gotten into the >>>horse by any means other than by injection.
I don\'t recall that from the appeal. The appeal was based more upon the interpretation of the trainer responsibility rule, I believe.
>> You\'ll recall Pletcher\'s absurd argument that the horse must have \"inhaled\" >> the substance from another horse in the stable. Lost all respect for the man >> fter that.
I don\'t recall that specific explaination, either (only that he said the horse was not injected, and his various vets records backed it up)
Steve Assmussen was cited in Louisiana for a mepivacaine positive of 1200 nanograms/milliliter of urine.
Louisiana allows 20ng/ml on race day (that presumes the drug isn\'t given for about a week before racing)
Jeff Mullins was cited in California for a mepivacaine positive of 30 ng/ml.
California allows 20 ng/ml on race day.
Pletcher was cited for a positive of 1.6 ng/ml. At the time zero allowed positive.
I\'m not worried too much about Pletcher.
You do realize that grooms doing cocaine can readily give a trainer\'s horse a positive from residual transfer off their own hands, just while grooming and working around the horse?
That if we tested the money in your wallet, chances are high we\'ll find cocaine traces on a bill?
All the \"-caines\" have good oral absorpsion ... if I had a few dried drops on my hand post-nerve block, then put my hand into a horses mouth to check it\'s teeth, gum color, hydration, or maybe gave it it\'s lasix shot race day, etc I sure would worry about transferring.
Not defending Pletcher (who appealed, lost, and did his days) - just trying to put some perspective on the reality that injection isn\'t the only way to get a trace amount positive. It\'s not all black and white.
I find it strange that Pletcher, with his fairly pristine record, is the constant target.