Today Doc Allday essentially called out Rick Dutrow on live radio this afternoon for among other racing felonies, orchestrating a conspiracy to defraud the public with the care and training of Wild Desert prior to the running of the 2005 Queens Plate at Woodbine.
The detail and candor Allday exhibited during a 5-10 minute stream of consciousness
confessional will probably lead to additional inquiry if not sanctions about a series of fraudulent activities that led to racing and societal crimes that beg the question of possible federal charges for fraud in Mr Dutrow\'s future. The only apparent controversy would be whether Canada or the US would have jurisdiction over these events to mislead the betting public about 1) Fraudulent workouts 2) The horse meeting criteria to compete in the Queens Plate since the necessary public workout at Monmouth was bogus thus placing the result of Woodbine\'s Crown Jewel in doubt.
To hear Allday live go to ATR and listen to the last 10 minutes of the archives for Nov 2. It is worth the listen
It really should not be missed...
LINK: http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/option,com_events/task,view_detail/agid,101/year,2007/month,11/day,02/Itemid,35/
(Hour 1.. Let it load and once loaded, you can then jump forward three-quaters of the way in...)
Steve Allday questioning the bona fides of a trainer is ludicrous. Especially a trainer he has \"doctored\" for.
Its too comical to even believe.
First off take whatever Allday says and file it where it belongs. If there is Any doubt that is in the trash can.
If the most likely to be banned Vet in Thoroughbred Racing is genuinely disclosing a subversive thing about Dutrow there is more to the story than the Quack Allday\'s revelation. Something much more akin to self interest and saving one\'s own skin.
If you want to save racing which of the two is more deserving of a permanent ban? Dick Dutrow or Steve Allday?
docicu3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Today Doc Allday essentially called out Rick
> Dutrow on live radio this afternoon for among
> other racing felonies, orchestrating a conspiracy
> to defraud the public with the care and training
> of Indian Flower prior to the running of the 2005
> Queens Plate at Woodbine.
>
> The detail and candor Allday exhibited during a
> 5-10 minute stream of consciousness
> confessional will probably lead to additional
> inquiry if not sanctions about a series of
> fraudulent activities that led to racing and
> societal crimes that beg the question of possible
> federal charges for fraud in Mr Dutrow\'s future.
> The only apparent controversy would be whether
> Canada or the US would have jurisdiction over
> these events to mislead the betting public about
> 1) Fraudulent workouts 2) The horse meeting
> criteria to compete in the Queens Plate since the
> necessary public workout at Monmouth was bogus
> thus placing the result of Woodbine\'s Crown Jewel
> in doubt.
>
> To hear Allday live go to ATR and listen to the
> last 10 minutes of the archives for Nov 2. It is
> worth the listen
Go ahead CTC lay it out there so subsequent readers will know what your talking about
Chuckles,
I have had horses treated by Allday privately and in partnerships. He is the best x-ray /radiograph/lameness vet in the country in my opinion. Have never seen what you are insinuating on one of my bills or in practice. What is it you think he is doing? Be specific. I\'ll ask him.
Hooper
Actually, Steve, anyone who \"jumps forward\" does themselves a disservice--the
entire hour was a very informative listen. I listened with special interest as
New York Post racing reporter John DaSilva opined that there would be no racing
at New York tracks as of January 1, 2008.
I did not realize that the horses of Dan Borislow, who owned Wild Desert, had
been excluded from NYRA tracks, which provides at least one reason why Wild
Desert could not have worked as Wild Desert while stabled at Aqueduct. Looks
like Team Dutrow outsmarted both the clockers and the stall man at Aqueduct.
And I note with interest in Sunday\'s DRF that the Dutrow horses will be running
in J- Rod\'s name as RD himself is apparently serving days once again.
Listening to the call from \"Steve from Kentucky\" it is quite apparent that
Dutrow and Allday did not have an amicable parting.
RD quite a versatile trainer, showing that he can cheat with and without drugs.
His brother AD has been getting incredible results up and down the East Coast
for the past few years. Dutrow family defenders have stated that part of their
success is attributable to the fact that they have a blacksmith who works for
them exclusively.
That\'s one hell of a farrier.
Richiebee wrote:
\"RD quite a versatile trainer, showing that he can cheat with and without drugs.
His brother AD has been getting incredible results up and down the East Coast
for the past few years. Dutrow family defenders have stated that part of their
success is attributable to the fact that they have a blacksmith who works for
them exclusively.
That\'s one hell of a farrier\"
Bee,
Team Tricky and bro are amazing in their ability to take a horse and move them forward. Along with Kentucky Bruce,they remain peerless in NY. The conspiracy idiots are noticeably silent re the White Mercedes, Allday/Pletcher/Frankel/Dutrow esp after the BC results.The BC featured wins by horses trained by suspects Dutrow, Pletcher, Frankel, Asmussen, Zito(yes,ahem, someone here suggested that Nick, 12% trainer, juices them, esp in Kentucky)I\'m shocked that the conspiracy idiots aren\'t suggesting that Baffy is now sending out his runners loaded up.
Re Allday, Hooper made a posting here that I have heard several trainers confirm,i.e. Alldays vet skills in special areas particularly \"backs/behinds\"(one was actually Tricky)
Mike
if anybody doesnt beleive this explain how mr. d canclaim a horse and 4 days later runs his fastest race?
Hooper,
Regarding Allday\'s ability to discern whats going on with a horse I would just point out Rags to Riches recent balking and the fact they raced her nevertheless and that post race an injury manifested itself. Allday ostensibly couldn\'t determine why she was spiking occasional fevers and balking so he sent her to New Bolton. They couldn\'t come up with a reason either. Horses can\'t talk and even if they could most of these guys address something other than the infirmity itself anyway, Allday included.
I\'m delighted you\'re in a position to ask Mr. Allday some questions. I have a host of them. The trick will be asking them tactfully enough to get some kind of usable response from him. Obviously you can\'t interrogate him, but I\'d begin something like this.
\"Steve, you\'ve made quite a name for yourself with Pletcher, Frankel and Dutrow, are you still treating horses for them?\"
(Thats a bait question Hooper, what he says isn\'t really relevant to where we want to go, but you have to win his confidence and stroking his ample ego some is not a bad way to start.)
If perchance he volunteers his fallouts with the above mentioned trainers, followup some to try to determine why they fell out. Maybe inquire if he knows who is treating for them now and what his opinion of that vet is.
Then ask when he Began treating for Pletcher. This is a key question that this board has wanted to pin the answer down to for years. FYI, Allday treated for Patrick Byrne in 1997. The year Countess Diana and Favorite Trick ran off with Juvenile Championships. Ask him how his relationship with Pletcher developed. Who approached who and what year was their team established. My guess is if he answers honestly he will state 2000, maybe 1999. 2000 is the year Pletcher had his first Derby Starter, actually his first 4 Derby starters. When it rains it pours. (FYI Pletchers runners beginning in 2000 started to throw in an abundance of exceptional efforts. Good skeletal review could be a reason. Something else could be the reason too.)
Ask Allday if he ever experimented with EPO. Whatever he answers ask him if he remembers the year (2002) when Left Bank, Freedom\'s Daughter and Warners all passed away within a week or two of each other. Then look him in the eye and ask him if he treated those horses with EPO. Who knows, we may get a Doc Harthill confessional moment, but I don\'t expect him to come clean. Whats important though is that he\'ll know that you know and you\'ll detect his evasion. Then ask him what Freedom\'s Daughter and Warners died from? What the autopsies concluded. (They were private autopsies of course and they were inconclusive.) Lastly ask him if Those horses deaths were consistent symptomatically with exposure to any of the various forms of EPO.
Below are two posts pertaining to this matter. It might be a good idea to read them for background before broaching the issue.
http://www.thorograph.com/phorum/read.php?1,36897,36897#msg-36897
http://www.thorograph.com/phorum/read.php?1,36987,36987#msg-36987
Ask Allday next if he has any non-EPO related experience with increasing the Red Blood Cell count in horses and whether he believes blood-packing with a horses own blood or a donor horses blood is viable. (The Tour de France oversight committee does.) Ask him if thoroughbred racing currently tests for blood packing and whether they should so test.
Lastly ask a question for Jerry and Docicu, ask what ways race induced lactic acid can be neutralized or mitigated by a Vet. We know of milkshakes and carbonate pills. Ask him what other ways to reduce lactic acid are viable.
If he hasn\'t pounded a quick retreat...tell him someone else put you up to the questions and that you still want him to treat your horses. But then tell him this fella wants the chance to interview him on At the Races for a half hour and will he appear to address substance abuse in Thoroughbred horse racing with him? I\'m sure we can get the time allocated by the hosts of the program.
Thats a start
Theres another occasional poster here who at times has had the chance to contribute by asking Pletcher similar questions. He balks as badly as Rags to Riches in virus aborted workout though. When all they can see are dollars, old men sometimes lack courage. When one lacks integrity though, things generally don\'t work out well. See Lawyer Ron and Tasha\'s Miracle.
CtC
d.hooper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles,
> I have had horses treated by Allday privately and
> in partnerships. He is the best x-ray
> /radiograph/lameness vet in the country in my
> opinion. Have never seen what you are insinuating
> on one of my bills or in practice. What is it you
> think he is doing? Be specific. I\'ll ask him.
> Hooper
Chuckles,I stopped counting at question 10. This link may get you more timely responses.
http://www.lubrisyn.com/mediaroom/interview.aspx
The feeling apparently persists in some people\'s minds that there is some type of a magic shot or drug vets can give that suddenly make a horse \"move up\".
Well, we test for drugs that could do that: cocaine, caffeine, amphetamines, etc. and have been doing so for some time.
A number of the BC horses were tested for milkshaking and EPO before the event. Yes, testing for milkshaking before the event doesn\'t do anything other than establish a baseline (which is pretty tight physiologically, anyway) - but can be used to compare to the after-race testing for specific horses.
There is alot of stuff vets can give, and trainers can do, both legal and illegal, but frankly that\'s a very difficult task when one is charged to do it, to get an amazing sudden moveup.
After all, that\'s the whole point of training - to make a horse optimize their capabilities. To either run faster, or run fast longer.
There are quite a few legal things one can do - for example, inject a sore hock with steroid and other agents, and relieve pain and inflammation - that can make a horse perform to a much higher level.
It\'s done all the time in the claiming ranks (and at the grade one level).
One claiming trainer doesn\'t have alot of money and thus doesn\'t do any care for the sore hock. They run the horse, take a big rest until the lameness subsides, then run him again at the same level.
The horse is claimed into a barn who has better vet care and the money to provide better care - amazing moveup accomplished, the horse runs back at a higher level and wins, and stays at that higher level.
Illegal moveup trainer? No, better horseman, better vet care.
But another trainer, rather than treating the joint with more expensive legal substances, simply injects a cheaper painkiller into the joint to effect the amazing moveup. Illegal (and dangerous to the horse and jockey) Same moveup, different cause.
One can also inject cobra venom to block a sore joint. Same result, but also illegal.
One thing that looking at sheet numbers for \"evidence\" of drug abuse does is to deny the obvious - the horse is a living animal, and some trainers are markedly better horsemen than others.
I\'ve seen people here use big sheet number moveups as justification for, \"that trainer is using something\" when the trainer is one of suspicion - while totally ignoring big sheet number moveups obtainable by \"thought to be clean\" trainers that simply know how to train and care for a horse over time.
That\'s the downside of trying to diagnose specific medical interventions off handicapping sheets.
To come to a conclusion and then go backwards trying to justify it - while ignoring any information that doesn\'t fit - and while using a data source (handicapping sheets) that is already subjectively interpretive of a performance (as horses are living creatures) is RIDICULOUS and illogical in my mind.
At best that can identify trainers that reliably get horses to increase performance.
A measured moveup by itself cannot possibly give cause for that.
And you can\'t ignore the trainers that can do the same thing legally and regularly, and only talk about the trainers you want to target.
The chronic assumption that any such moveup is due to \"illegal drugs\" - and not anything else - is silly.
>>>Lastly ask a question for Jerry and Docicu, ask what ways race induced >>>lactic acid can be neutralized or mitigated by a Vet. We know of milkshakes >>>and carbonate pills. Ask him what other ways to reduce lactic acid are >>viable.
You do realize that delaying lactic acid buildup in a horse (or any other species) only possibly gets a small persistence in endurance at best, don\'t you? No speed increase. And that \"possibly\" is a big, real deal, as it\'s not a predictable reponse?
Same with EPO?
You do realize that changing a horses nutrition can do very the same thing, and elicit the very same type of response, over 6 weeks?
I\'ve seen trainers elicit big moveups in horses by doing that - good husbandry.
It is clear to me that many discussing this subject are strictly handicappers, with no horse experience.
They are not familiar with what veterinary interventions are being done to horses normally, what is being done illegally, but most importantly what any specific intervention could at best accomplish.
Sight,
Well spoken, I did not come up with the term \"conspiracy idiots\" without regard for much of what you posted.
Mike
Sight-- I disagree with much of this, but I want to make one specific point, which I have made several times.
Even if that is what they were doing (which I doubt), out of competion CO2 tests (\"milkshakes\") to establish a baseline would only be relevant if a positive resulted if a horse came back later over the baseline. Which is not the case.
Again (and again and again)-- the amount of CO2 that occurs naturally in a horse is somewhere between 28 and 31, tops. The threshold level for a positive is 37 to 39, depending on the state. In other words, if they established a baseline of 30 and the horse came back 35 after the BC, a) he was drugged, and b) the trainer will not be sanctioned. Most importantly, c) nothing will be announced.
I want to clarify something I said in an earlier post on this subject. The act of administering alkalyzing agents is illegal, regardless of the level. Because of the industry wanting to stay out of court, they have made it De Facto legal. But the many (and I mean many) doing it are still breaking the rules.
Until the CO2 test results are published, none of this will change.
I\'m certain the stats men will correct me if I\'m wrong but I believe Lawyer Ron\'s first start under Plech was the 2006 Breeders Cup Flop.
Plech put him away brought him back this year and immediately had him hitting at his old performance levels. As an older long established horse he went from occasionaly negative 1\'s to:
-2
-6
-4.2 (I think the number should be faster)
-3.2 (Another I think should be about a point faster)
Even taking these numbers as gospel, its clear Lawyer Ron suddenly freaked. If you do take these numbers as gospel he was on a slight regressive curve and his second Breeders Cup Classic Flop maybe wasnt such a shock.
However what was a shock is how he jumped 10 plus lengths faster (5 TGraph points) in two races at the Spa. That was absurd.
I\'ve heard it all. \"Plech has the best horses and help...he\'s the best their ever was. His Vet is the Naz....he has an exclusive blacksmith...They know just where to inject lubrisyn...EPO can\'t do that much...Blood packing is a theory\" What these folks talking this way dont look at are the efforts and the figure chronology. If they did, they\'d understand why Plech fairs well in the Graded Stakes and they might have an inclination as to why his Breeders Cup record is not as spectacular. sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The feeling apparently persists in some people\'s
> minds that there is some type of a magic shot or
> drug vets can give that suddenly make a horse
> \"move up\".
>
> Well, we test for drugs that could do that:
> cocaine, caffeine, amphetamines, etc. and have
> been doing so for some time.
>
> A number of the BC horses were tested for
> milkshaking and EPO before the event. Yes,
> testing for milkshaking before the event doesn\'t
> do anything other than establish a baseline (which
> is pretty tight physiologically, anyway) - but can
> be used to compare to the after-race testing for
> specific horses.
>
> There is alot of stuff vets can give, and trainers
> can do, both legal and illegal, but frankly that\'s
> a very difficult task when one is charged to do
> it, to get an amazing sudden moveup.
>
> After all, that\'s the whole point of training - to
> make a horse optimize their capabilities. To
> either run faster, or run fast longer.
>
> There are quite a few legal things one can do -
> for example, inject a sore hock with steroid and
> other agents, and relieve pain and inflammation -
> that can make a horse perform to a much higher
> level.
>
> It\'s done all the time in the claiming ranks (and
> at the grade one level).
>
> One claiming trainer doesn\'t have alot of money
> and thus doesn\'t do any care for the sore hock.
> They run the horse, take a big rest until the
> lameness subsides, then run him again at the same
> level.
>
> The horse is claimed into a barn who has better
> vet care and the money to provide better care -
> amazing moveup accomplished, the horse runs back
> at a higher level and wins, and stays at that
> higher level.
>
> Illegal moveup trainer? No, better horseman,
> better vet care.
>
> But another trainer, rather than treating the
> joint with more expensive legal substances, simply
> injects a cheaper painkiller into the joint to
> effect the amazing moveup. Illegal (and dangerous
> to the horse and jockey) Same moveup, different
> cause.
>
> One can also inject cobra venom to block a sore
> joint. Same result, but also illegal.
>
> One thing that looking at sheet numbers for
> \"evidence\" of drug abuse does is to deny the
> obvious - the horse is a living animal, and some
> trainers are markedly better horsemen than
> others.
>
> I\'ve seen people here use big sheet number moveups
> as justification for, \"that trainer is using
> something\" when the trainer is one of suspicion -
> while totally ignoring big sheet number moveups
> obtainable by \"thought to be clean\" trainers that
> simply know how to train and care for a horse over
> time.
>
> That\'s the downside of trying to diagnose specific
> medical interventions off handicapping sheets.
>
> To come to a conclusion and then go backwards
> trying to justify it - while ignoring any
> information that doesn\'t fit - and while using a
> data source (handicapping sheets) that is already
> subjectively interpretive of a performance (as
> horses are living creatures) is RIDICULOUS and
> illogical in my mind.
>
> At best that can identify trainers that reliably
> get horses to increase performance.
>
> A measured moveup by itself cannot possibly give
> cause for that.
>
> And you can\'t ignore the trainers that can do the
> same thing legally and regularly, and only talk
> about the trainers you want to target.
>
> The chronic assumption that any such moveup is due
> to \"illegal drugs\" - and not anything else - is
> silly.
>
> >>>Lastly ask a question for Jerry and Docicu,
> ask what ways race induced >>>lactic acid can be
> neutralized or mitigated by a Vet. We know of
> milkshakes >>>and carbonate pills. Ask him what
> other ways to reduce lactic acid are >>viable.
>
> You do realize that delaying lactic acid buildup
> in a horse (or any other species) only possibly
> gets a small persistence in endurance at best,
> don\'t you? No speed increase. And that
> \"possibly\" is a big, real deal, as it\'s not a
> predictable reponse?
>
> Same with EPO?
>
> You do realize that changing a horses nutrition
> can do very the same thing, and elicit the very
> same type of response, over 6 weeks?
>
> I\'ve seen trainers elicit big moveups in horses by
> doing that - good husbandry.
>
> It is clear to me that many discussing this
> subject are strictly handicappers, with no horse
> experience.
>
> They are not familiar with what veterinary
> interventions are being done to horses normally,
> what is being done illegally, but most importantly
> what any specific intervention could at best
> accomplish.
Poor Chuck, drank too much Kool Aide. What was LR choppped liver when Holthius had him at 3? Enough about TAP who\'s stable is probably achieving at par, all things considered.
Based on your inane theory what possibly could account for Midnight Lute running a pair of neg 7\'s no less. Don\'t tell me it was the 3 epi/throat operations either.Baffy\'s now a move up guy?
Mike
You can\'t be serious Mike?
Plech did lose some luster recently and the question is \"why\". winning at 13% at Belmont was not bad for most trainers but Plech was down on his strike rate. Once again though, he won the most money. Which means his top flight graded stakes horses for some reason get it done most meets even when he\'s struggling a bit overall.
Baffert has three Derby wins. Two of which he did with 17K and 70K horses.
He has a bunch of Preaknesses and at least one Belmont too.
Baffert is 5 times the horseman Plech is and to my knowledge has never employed Allday.
Unlike Lawyer Ron for instance, Lute had never really had the consistency to establish a level of performance. There was a lot of white on his sheet for time off. Some of it may have been the throat issue. He\'s still running infrequently, but I do believe hes found his level once they got him off those fake surfaces. Lute wants to roll on real dirt. If you\'re not factoring that you\'re missing a big part of Lute\'s new level of performance.
The sheets on the two horses are not remotely comparable.
Midnight Lute may be the best Baffert has had in some time and unlike Lawyer Ron, I don\'t think hes been \"Alldayed\". We\'ll see how he handles back to back -7\'s. My guess is that unlike Plech, Baffert will give him time. I also dont anticipate seeing him on Poly again. On poly hes just another horse.
Lets try to focus though. This is about breaking Pletcher down and making him run fairly.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poor Chuck, drank too much Kool Aide. What was LR
> choppped liver when Holthius had him at 3? Enough
> about TAP who\'s stable is probably achieving at
> par, all things considered.
>
>
> Based on your inane theory what possibly could
> account for Midnight Lute running a pair of neg
> 7\'s no less. Don\'t tell me it was the 3 epi/throat
> operations either.Baffy\'s now a move up guy?
>
> Mike
Jerry, I agree with all you say about the limitations of CO2 testing, and I don\'t even know why they bothered to spend the money to test CO2 pre-BC. Means little to nothing.
Have you ever gone through your figures, and established percentages for ALL trainers, for broad level and class of horse? I am talking about knowing that So-and-so\'s horses, when off the claim, can be expected to have an X% increase in their performance number, etc. This is not the same as winning percentage off claim, etc.; and ignores other variables. It\'s is much the same as a broad overally win-ITM percent number. It attempts to quantitate expected % of moveup.
A huge task, but would be valuable data to include in the product. Whether such an increase (or decrease) was due to legal reasons or not.
Can you post the information you have on Dutrow? Pletcher? Compared to a couple of other trainers with that type of horse in questions?
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:>
>>Baffert is 5 times the horseman Plech is and to my
> knowledge has never employed Allday.
Good lord, that\'s a matter of opinion.
Chuck,
Again you have it wrong. Baffy is notorious for drilling them in between races and running back a lot quicker than TAP.Again Chuck what trainer has like 50 stakes runners in their barn, answer NONE.It\'s a sheer volume game with TAP but his % of stakes winners vs starters can\'t be too impressive, but I don\'t know what it is.
Re Baffy, he has a bunch of nice runners now and I assume he knows what he is doing but the term \"horseman\" is too loosely used in the game.
Mike
Per DRF: Midnight Lute will probably be in the Cigar Mile on Thanksgiving Weekend and the Dubai World Cup in March.
Chuckles,
Even if you are right about Pletcher, your arguments are so ridiculous sometimes it\'s hard to take you seriously.
You seem to have enough knowledge and insight into handicapping to notice that Midnight Lute was still lightly raced, recently had a throat operation, and may prefer real dirt. However, the fact that LR was still a rank 3YO when he put up some good figures early last year and hit his best stride as a more relaxed 4YO after a few starts for a new trainer (a typical pattern for many horses) totally escapes you.
The problem with your analysis is that you start with the conclusions (Pletcher cheats and Baffert doesn\'t) and then try to make the case instead of looking at all the possible logical explanations for both horses\' performances.
I\'ve followed Midnight Lute from day one and I thought he had two surgeries. Baffert admitted he\'d had three. Forget the surface,it\'s getting his breath and then he changed it all........
fkach Wrote:
> The problem with your analysis is that you start
> with the conclusions (Pletcher cheats and Baffert
> doesn\'t) and then try to make the case instead of
> looking at all the possible logical explanations
> for both horses\' performances.
Exactly.
And that is my problem with determining, \"a trainer must be cheating\" off of only handicapping figures, too.
I\'ve seen detailed explainations over the years here of how some jumps in ability simply do not exist normally within the statistical confines of a particular handicapping method - thus they can\'t exist naturally, hence the trainer must be cheating.
No other possible explainations - least of all what\'s happening, or not, with the living animal (which outsiders are rarely privy to, anyway) - are considered.
What if Baffert didn\'t discuss Midnight Lute\'s throat problems publically. How would you guys explain that one? Cheating?
Doc - Sorry to bother, I know you are busy, and I never stay on topic here, but could you sneak in a clarification of this URL? I don\'t see where to go to get the audio of DR. Allday\'s STREAM of consciousness disclosure about Tricky. And he is good. skip, havin\' a Sunny Sunday here in the West, just need the link.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poor Chuck, drank too much Kool Aide. What was LR
> choppped liver when Holthius had him at 3? Enough
> about TAP who\'s stable is probably achieving at
> par, all things considered.
>
>
> Based on your inane theory what possibly could
> account for Midnight Lute running a pair of neg
> 7\'s no less. Don\'t tell me it was the 3 epi/throat
> operations either.Baffy\'s now a move up guy?
>
> Mike
He was loaded for bear, wasn\'t he, that Lute. wow
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one:
\"Lawyer Ron suddenly began smoking negative 6\'s because Plech put a master exercise rider up and taught him to rate.\"
Really? Anyone see a rating Lawyer Ron in the B.C.Classic last week? He was motoring to try and stay with Hard Spun and Hardy wore him out.
Look at those other efforts including him getting run down by Curlin in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and tell this board he rated kindly.
The only difference is Lawyer Ron moved up into competition he can\'t smoke from the gate. Enough already.
Crazy, crazy stuff.
fkach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles,
>
> Even if you are right about Pletcher, your
> arguments are so ridiculous sometimes it\'s hard to
> take you seriously.
>
> You seem to have enough knowledge and insight into
> handicapping to notice that Midnight Lute was
> still lightly raced, recently had a throat
> operation, and may prefer real dirt. However, the
> fact that LR was still a rank 3YO when he put up
> some good figures early last year and hit his best
> stride as a more relaxed 4YO after a few starts
> for a new trainer (a typical pattern for many
> horses) totally escapes you.
>
> The problem with your analysis is that you start
> with the conclusions (Pletcher cheats and Baffert
> doesn\'t) and then try to make the case instead of
> looking at all the possible logical explanations
> for both horses\' performances.
Miff:
To be thorough, add to your list of \"usual suspects\" winning BC races Biancone
and Doug O\'Neill, who won Friday BC races.
The performance enhancement debate rages on. The lines are drawn between those
who have hands on knowledge of the equine, and those who wouldn\'t know Big Red
from Mr. Ed yet are firm in their belief that drugs can be used to explain
almost any performance, good or bad. And of course there are those whose
interest in Racing is strictly pari- mutuel and would only object if the number
of wagering opportunities was restricted or if a major handicapping contest was
cancelled.
Racing can identify the cheaters but chooses not to punish them appropriately,
in a manner which would have a deterrent effect. The two most significant
trainers on the NY circuit --Contessa (most prolific in number of
starters) and Dutrow (more or less the highest % trainer in NY) are both
currently set down. They will be back and continue business as usual and I can
almost guarantee a medication positive for each of these trainers if Racing is
conducted in NY in 2008.
In the words of Frankie Pentangeli, \"I\'m tired and I\'m a little drunk...Cicci, a
porta\"
stillinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doc - Sorry to bother, I know you are busy, and I
> never stay on topic here, but could you sneak in a
> clarification of this URL? I don\'t see where to go
> to get the audio of DR. Allday\'s STREAM of
> consciousness disclosure about Tricky. And he is
> good. skip, havin\' a Sunny Sunday here in the
> West, just need the link.
No problem.....go to Steve Byk\'s ATRAB which is now....
http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/
In the upper right corner click on the link for the archives. Then choose November 2, then play the first hour of the three hour show. The goodies are about 2/3rds into the first hour but to get the context of the thing you really should listen to the whole first hour.
There are times on occasion when the program can drag like a Tuesday Beulah 3K claimer but this whole show is simply as interesting and provocative as anything the racing industry has ever done on the subject.
The beauty of the broadcast is the candor and spontaneity of the participants, who were neither planned nor scripted to my knowledge, from Allday to hall of fame trainer John Veitch, the Ky chief state Steward, the discussion crackles for 2 and a half hours that should not be missed by serious racing fans.
I wish there was a fair way to tighten the HCO3/CO2 numbers as you discuss Jerry but
the phenomena of \"contraction alkalosis\" does not allow you to view normal as you intimate in horses and people. Lasix is one of many reasons for this where a non milkshake effect can create severe metabolic alkalosis that is not due to alkaline administration thus your CO2 venous level is very suspect.
In conditions of intravascular depletion, dehydration or Lasix administration, the kidney creates it\'s own metabolic alkalosis to maintain electrical neutrality by an ion exchange mechanism or by replacing chloride with bicarb. Without controlling the hydration status of the horse or person there is a much wider normal than you suggest which will ruin your data for normal as you are describing it. There are simple tests to detect this being done but that\'s not what your premise is about.
Publishing serum HCO3/CO2 numbers for trainers isn\'t going to help identify the cheaters and if a trainer ever had enough financial backing to push this scientific set of facts the whole house of cards is going to fall.
do we let this happen do to the money aspect? are we afraid that if we get rid of these guys they will take their wealthy clients and go elsewhere? i think so.
sighthound, your missing the point.its the trainers that claim horses and 3 days later they run new tops by 5 points. what the heck can they do in 3 days? tricky dick did this alot.
Cub:
I think that Sight gets the point, but I think what he objects to is some of
the (relatively) honest trainers getting thrown in with the known cheaters.
Tricky is a tough case because he is utilizing many of the methods which Sight
would characterize as \"good animal husbandry\" IN ADDITION TO taking advantage
of the rules of racing wherever he can (RD has served nearly 7 years of
suspension time since he began training in the early 90s, 5 of them for
personal issues).
But its all good because Tricky will come back from his latest suspension and
NYRA will not take any stalls away and all of his major sponsors like Goldfarb
and IEAH will stick by him. And it only gets better-- I am noticing for the
first time that Eugene Melnyk has horses with Tricky. The same Melnyk whose
Biovail Corp has been under close scrutiny by the SEC for the last 2 or so
years.
Birds of a feather?
And the man they call Tricky is 3/8 on Racing\'s biggest day.
Allday was full of bluster on that radio show. Is he clean enough himself to
come forward with specific allegations? Would this somehow be prevented by any
Vet/ Client confidentiality issues?
All of this intrigue and it is only 53 hours or so until post time at Aq
Wednesday. The feature at AQ on Wednesday is the Volponi, a name which should
remind us that with or without drugs, people will always be looking for a way
to manipulate the game to their own benefit. Not that there\'s anything wrong
with that...
I am not expressing an opinion on Pletcher here, but MANY horses peak a few races into a new season just like LR did this year and then wear out by year end. If you knew ANYTHING about LR\'s races last year and were willing to be intellectually honest about this you would also know that LR ran a few races last year that were much better than they looked based on final time figures alone. He was used hard early and was rank on a couple of occasions. Once you understand his real level of performance as a still developing spring 3YO, a huge race as a 4YO would stop looking like a total shock. Lots of horses get really sharp for a race or two and then start heading south again.
Personally, I can\'t see how you can criticize his loss to Curlin if that\'s what you were doing. He lost in the last few strides to a rapidly improving 3YO that just crushed the BC Classic off that performance. In addition, just watch the race. He wasn\'t exactly rank that day, but he was certainly a lot less relaxed than he had been in his better starts this year. Perhaps the problem that Pletcher corrected was beginning to resurface. Plus, it was a 10F race, a distance that MANY people suspected would not be his best to begin with.
Barry hasn\'t weighed in on what happen in the Classic (and I didn\'t read any specific comments from Pletcher), but he would not be the only horse on BC day to not like that sea of slop. Nor would it be a shock if he simply wore down after a peaking for a few races at Saratoga. It happens all the time. I even brought that possibility up to Barry in a comment after the Saratoga races suggesting that the horse may have peaked too soon.
Is my analysis 100% correct?
It doesn\'t matter.
It\'s reasonable, logical, based on fact, and certainly very possible.
The fact that you won\'t even consider things like this is the PROBLEM with your very biased accusations. You start with a conclusion and then build your case without considering other logical possibilities.
cubfan0316 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sighthound, your missing the point.its the
> trainers that claim horses and 3 days later they
> run new tops by 5 points. what the heck can they
> do in 3 days? tricky dick did this alot.
Cub, we\'re not talking about those guys, we\'re talking about Pletcher. Accusing Pletcher of using illegal drugs based upon handicapping figure interpretation, rather than (and in spite of) his horses testing results.
Running horses right back is an old trainer trick, and works quite frequently on it\'s own merits. Done more in England and Australia than the US.
I am sure there are indeed guys who are claiming, then injecting sore horses with illegal stuff - such as using cobra venom as a nerve block - to allow some to run right back.
For those that argue good training and vetting accounts for many of these move-ups mentioned and that we can\'t assume illegal drugs are prevalent in horse racing--I don\'t agree. Big picture, we now KNOW other \"sports\" are riddled with drug/enhancing agent issues. This \"sport\" involves horses who can\'t talk and whose underpinnings revolve around gambling, large purses, breeding fees, etc. Suspicion and testing should be double or triple what it is compared to other \"sports\", thats just common sense. If thier issues are bad, I suspect racings are much worse. What is more troublesome is pinning down specific names. But it seems trainer patterns may help indicate suspicious trends, and as JB has called for, Vet disclosures would help even more. When the trainer and vet patterns overlay each other, you probably have something (other than $$ for sore hoofs).
Boy, that was interesting hearing Allday go after Dicky though. That is some bad blood. Where is that one big whistle-blower that brings down some really big names with more than just venom?
>> But it seems trainer patterns may help indicate suspicious trends, and as JB >> has called for, Vet disclosures would help even more.
I\'m sorry, but vet disclosures won\'t help at all. Most barns use multiple veterinarians.
There are ways to deal with the multiple vet question though I haven\'t got time to get into them now.
Good, because I know you don\'t want my professional reputation to suffer unnecessarily by false accusation, Jerry.
I hope you guys are listening to At The Races, where the discussion continues today:
www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com Click on \"listen live\". 4-7pm eastern M-F
Jerry,
You are a magnificent HOST.
When you get a minute, would you have some one ask Osama bin Laden to call my family phone, and leave me an indication as to whether or not I can persuade him to listen to me for 3 minutes, max. I would appreciate that - be in the City in January, w/mymother, visiting old friends.
OUr families came together, and what are the odds?
you make figures,
sos you tell me.
And then start rounding up my 25MM in cash. I would pay that just to talk to him for 2 minutes.
Thank you, sir,
You have been very indulgent,
and I won\'t forget.
skip Stillinger
PS: I might have to borrow the money,
but someone might be interested in this BOOKMAKER.
Richiebbb wrote:
The feature at AQ on Wednesday is the Volponi, a name which should
remind us that with or without drugs, people will always be looking for a way
to manipulate the game to their own benefit. Not that there\'s anything wrong
with that...
Richie, are you implying my favorite Breeders Cup Classic winner was manipulated? I thought Mr. Johnson was the classiest of class acts.
I would highly recommend that everyone who has read this thread go listen to Tuesday, Nov. 6 \"At The Races\", second hour, halfway through, with a return visit from Dr. Steven Allday.
Chuckles, you will especially enjoy it.
Chuckponi:
I was not implying that there was anything crooked about Volponi\'s romp in the
BC at AP, but I seem to recall there were some irregularities with the Pick 6
that year.
\"The Big Horse\", a biography of PG by crime writer Joe McGinniss (\"Fatal
Vision\",\"Blind Faith\" and the recently released \"Never Enough\") is a very good
read, starting with PG back when he had a small stable at the then mobbed up
Chicago tracks and ending with Volponi\'s BC victory. A must read for you,
Chuckpasser, if you can take time away from trying to connect TAP\'s poor
performances on racing\'s biggest days with the collapse of the subprime mortgage
market.
when will it end? who needs to step up?
I don\'t feel qualified to speculate on this subject, but Tues. hour 2 was very interesting.
Can\'t wait to find out what twist the conspiracy will take once it\'s sunk in that Allday has been Mott\'s vet since Pletcher. Actually that\'s a lie. I can wait.