The Spring Belmont Meet ended with Plech winning 33 of 110 races for a strike rate of 30% and he was top trainer in total purses won of almost 2,800,000. Its nice to win races and Plech finished that meet with more winners than place and show finishers combined.
110-33,14,17
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbTopLeadersByTrackDisplay.cfm?TRK=BEL&CY=USA&STAT=T&STYLE=BEL
The recently concluded Saratoga Meet wasn\'t as much of a statistical strike rate success for Plech, though he started a few more horses and won approximately 2,100,000 in purses and once again was the top trainer in money won.
115-13,12,16
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbTopLeadersByTrackDisplay.cfm?TRK=SAR&CY=USA&STAT=T&STYLE=SAR
Plech did lose his string of Saratoga Training Titles. He had won five straight Saratoga Titles beginning in his Stable Die Off year of 2002 and up through 2006. Previously he had won Saratoga in 1998. However this year a horseman caught up to him and left him in the dust. These things happen when you fall off 20 winners. 20 horses that not only didn\'t win, but didn\'t hit the board.
2007-Bill Mott
2006-Plech
2005-Plech
2004-Plech
2003-Plech
2002-Plech
2001-Bill Mott
2000-Bill Mott
1999-Bill Mott
1998-Plech
1997-Bill Mott
1996-Bill Mott
1995-Bill Mott
1994-Shug McGaughey
1993-Bill Mott
1992-Bill Mott
Obviously, Plech has the best horses and best stable help and is the very best there has ever been. With those attributes Saratoga would have to be a one time anomaly. Lets watch him reclaim his form at Belmont this fall. And, if he can\'t reclaim that 30% strike rate, lets count the open daylight wins in Grade I stakes and track records that fall or nearly fall. Now, if he could only run Lawyer Ron and Rags to Riches every week with a week off.
God its Good to have Good Horses!
Jerry, it recently occurred to me that Blood is Not a Performance Enhancing Drug. To your knowledge do any of the State Regulations prohibit Blood Packing?
Yes, it is poor form to reply to ones own post, but after a very cursory check I was not able to ascertain any Racing Jurisdictions that consider \"Blood Packing\" \"Performance Enhancing\". If that is true, its unlikely the jurisdictions are testing for Donor Blood. If both of those premises are correct, gentlemen and ladies, we have in all likelihood identified an important Super-trainer elixir.
It would be identified, as it has been, within the oxygen cycle.
I know, I know, Chuckles has a funny nickname, speculates wildly and doesn\'t understand anything.
lol
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Spring Belmont Meet ended with Plech winning
> 33 of 110 races for a strike rate of 30% and he
> was top trainer in total purses won of almost
> 2,800,000. Its nice to win races and Plech
> finished that meet with more winners than place
> and show finishers combined.
>
> 110-33,14,17
>
> http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbTopLeadersByTra
> ckDisplay.cfm?TRK=BEL&CY=USA&STAT=T&STYLE=BEL
>
> The recently concluded Saratoga Meet wasn\'t as
> much of a statistical strike rate success for
> Plech, though he started a few more horses and won
> approximately 2,100,000 in purses and once again
> was the top trainer in money won.
>
> 115-13,12,16
>
> http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbTopLeadersByTra
> ckDisplay.cfm?TRK=SAR&CY=USA&STAT=T&STYLE=SAR
>
> Plech did lose his string of Saratoga Training
> Titles. He had won five straight Saratoga Titles
> beginning in his Stable Die Off year of 2002 and
> up through 2006. Previously he had won Saratoga in
> 1998. However this year a horseman caught up to
> him and left him in the dust. These things happen
> when you fall off 20 winners. 20 horses that not
> only didn\'t win, but didn\'t hit the board.
>
> 2007-Bill Mott
> 2006-Plech
> 2005-Plech
> 2004-Plech
> 2003-Plech
> 2002-Plech
> 2001-Bill Mott
> 2000-Bill Mott
> 1999-Bill Mott
> 1998-Plech
> 1997-Bill Mott
> 1996-Bill Mott
> 1995-Bill Mott
> 1994-Shug McGaughey
> 1993-Bill Mott
> 1992-Bill Mott
>
> Obviously, Plech has the best horses and best
> stable help and is the very best there has ever
> been. With those attributes Saratoga would have to
> be a one time anomaly. Lets watch him reclaim his
> form at Belmont this fall. And, if he can\'t
> reclaim that 30% strike rate, lets count the open
> daylight wins in Grade I stakes and track records
> that fall or nearly fall. Now, if he could only
> run Lawyer Ron and Rags to Riches every week with
> a week off.
>
> God its Good to have Good Horses!
>
> Jerry, it recently occurred to me that Blood is
> Not a Performance Enhancing Drug. To your
> knowledge do any of the State Regulations prohibit
> Blood Packing?
The problem is that even \"IF\" you are correct, and it\'s NOT ILLEGAL, that makes all the difference in terms of who should be getting trashed here.
In a hyper competitive environment how can you blame those with the resources from taking advantage of all legal options? IMO, you can\'t. You have to blame those that make the rules.
Since I know less than nothing about blood packing, I\'d be curious to know whether there are any well known long term downsides to the health of the receiver. If there are, then it would warrant some criticism IF it is actually occurring.
I\'m still wondering where Chuckles thinks the blood will come from ....
Chuck,
Just as milkshakes became the rage a couple of years ago(even though it was happening at the trots 20 years ago) fooling with \"fresh\" or rejuvinated blood is something the racing game was aware of in my dark days of owning harness horses(Lord forgive me).
It all sounds like a nice conspiracy but you are really not aware of the traffic and security at the barn area for such a messy procedure. If it\'s being done, the procedure has been streamlined, perfected, neat and quickly executed and Chuck there are things, like random sampling/testing going on which no one is supposed to know or talk about, but it\'s happening.There has never been a time, in NY, when cheaters are actually in serious jeopardy of being caught. With new money, Charlie Hayward has promised to come down on this illegal drug thing \"like a ton of bricks\"
I think, surprisingly, that you drank too much of the conspiracy White Mercedes stuff and lost focus of basic issues such as pricey fast stock and superior horse flesh. Fast horses make trainers look like better horsemen than they are.There is no substitute for talented horses except for illegal designer drugs.How are all of these things happening with NO ONE droping a dime and no real positives to speak of.The greatest conspiracy ever, this TAP thing you latched on.
There seems to be a small group of cheaters in NY who have stayed ahead of testing but with that playing field being leveled in the near future, it will really be interesting to see how the win percentage of some will be affected.Stay tuned.
Mike
DRF Reports that Diabolical has been purchased by the Sheikh and is heading out of the country to Dubai,no Breeders Cup.
Wonder why he doesn\'t buy any NY Bred slow rats.
Mike
One less exotic way to increase red blood cells is to come back on four days rest if you have legs and feet left. It was always my understanding that red cells were at a more than \"normal\" level due to recovering at about that juncture.
skip
The next meaningful embargo of the US could be Thoroughbred blood!
They buy EVERY horse that Tabor doesn\'t. And pay so much no one can say no.
Or is that a provincial attitude in a global sport of sheiks?
skip
Mike,
Surely you give me more credit than that?
I am not illustrating a 1960\'s hospital bed save the actors life transfusion with all the tubes, apparatus and personnel.
If you\'re asking my opinion on how its done the donor horse samples are taken off track. The blood is separated in chemistry classroom manner and the important elements are identified, stored and then reintroduced off track as well, but anytime the Vet wants to make a dusk or dawn visit with a lookout, it would be very feasible to introduce the collected blood material to the subject horse on track as well.
You\'re stating its been done in your presence or with your knowledge. I don\'t think there\'s any more to say, other than to demand Regulations and Donor Blood testing.
I\'ve suspected they were going to go this route ever since the EPO side effects. I\'m quite sure they are here now, but I\'m not sure the Rules can currently cope with the stables having the wherewithal to cheat in this manner. I\'m not being coy, we all know who we are talking about.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck,
>
> Just as milkshakes became the rage a couple of
> years ago(even though it was happening at the
> trots 20 years ago) fooling with \"fresh\" or
> rejuvinated blood is something the racing game was
> aware of in my dark days of owning harness
> horses(Lord forgive me).
>
> It all sounds like a nice conspiracy but you are
> really not aware of the traffic and security at
> the barn area for such a messy procedure. If it\'s
> being done, the procedure has been streamlined,
> perfected, neat and quickly executed and Chuck
> there are things, like random sampling/testing
> going on which no one is supposed to know or talk
> about, but it\'s happening.There has never been a
> time, in NY, when cheaters are actually in serious
> jeopardy of being caught. With new money, Charlie
> Hayward has promised to come down on this illegal
> drug thing \"like a ton of bricks\"
>
> I think, surprisingly, that you drank too much of
> the conspiracy White Mercedes stuff and lost focus
> of basic issues such as pricey fast stock and
> superior horse flesh. Fast horses make trainers
> look like better horsemen than they are.There is
> no substitute for talented horses except for
> illegal designer drugs.How are all of these things
> happening with NO ONE droping a dime and no real
> positives to speak of.The greatest conspiracy
> ever, this TAP thing you latched on.
>
> There seems to be a small group of cheaters in NY
> who have stayed ahead of testing but with that
> playing field being leveled in the near future, it
> will really be interesting to see how the win
> percentage of some will be affected.Stay tuned.
>
>
> Mike
Hmmm, very interesting. I was not aware of that. But I do know the physical body is a very adaptive system. If a horse ran hard four days previously and its muscles starved for oxygen it would not be a surprise to me that its system, short term, created more red blood cells to compensate or as a result of lactic acid buildup. Maybe there is something to running a horse every week. Of course, he\'s got to have the bone and sinew for it too and not many modern sires are capable of passing on durability.
stillinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One less exotic way to increase red blood cells is
> to come back on four days rest if you have legs
> and feet left. It was always my understanding that
> red cells were at a more than \"normal\" level due
> to recovering at about that juncture.
>
> skip
< I was not aware of that. But I do know the physical body is a very adaptive system. If a horse ran hard four days previously and its muscles starved for oxygen it would not be a surprise to me that its system, short term, created more red blood cells to compensate or as a result of lactic acid buildup.>
Congratulations Chuckster,
You\'ve blown the lid off Oscar Barrera.
Let\'s see, at that rate we\'ll figure out what TP did in 2032
>> If a horse ran hard four days previously and its muscles starved for oxygen >>> it would not be a surprise to me that its system, short term, created more >>> red blood cells to compensate or as a result of lactic acid buildup.
Your ability to rewrite basis physiology simply continues to astound.
True, but I bet that\'s how the idea got started. And and I always thought the underlying fundamental to Rick D\'s short turnarounds. They have been profitable for him. I always thought it was common knowledge that Pete Ferriola blood doped, but I say that only because he is no longer around, and I don\'t say that to disparage his efforts - only to indicate how long ago I thought that was happening. I only saw the short turn arounds in the winter. That could have been BS. Another thing along this line a long time ago was 1-2 races and out for a while kind of PP. That in the days of my youth was chips or a bow that could get cold if you froze it after resting, but in the 90\'s seemed to be a common albuterol training schedule. Again, what do I know? I had a reaction to Red Bank and that time frame, but I had a stronger reaction to the young animals that Mr Lukas went through for a dying owner he was making happy but really trashing animals that couldn\'t stand his training style, so it ain\'t all about one thing or another and as JB made clear, most stuff is WITHIN The rules as stated, and walking that fine line makes everyone more successful. That\'s the US so far. Capitalism run rampant, not just at the track, but there too. This is where we live and I appreciate your passion for fairness but I agree with others that this is an era we will survive. It wasn\'t much fun in the old days to know that everything from sponges in noses, to synthetic heroin for nerve blocks were used everywhere cheap horses were running, to win a bet. Now there are some questions that really affect the breed and do chase the tourists away and we need their money. It ain\'t Camelot but it ain\'t the hell realm either. We\'ll get around this somehow - I remember when cleaner air in LA sounded impossible, on the other hand being threatened by people in Afghanistan sounded far fetched 20 years ago. Yin and Yang.
Personally, I don\'t think you just want attention. I think that what you would like is for people to realize that just because it looks like Lord & Taylor doesn\'t mean it can\'t have a little Enron in it and most people don\'t want to hear that. Training on things that you can\'t run on, steroids being legal, all this is a very unusual playing field. But honestly, I grew up with buzzers and shenanigans that I don\'t think happen in the Apple now.
Remember to win.
Sight:
Sorry I gotta have a little fun with this.
You asked Chuckto Star (Balto Star,a Glitterman product who TAP got to go 1-1/2
miles on the turf, one of my favorite TAP runners) where the blood will come
from.
Isn\'t it common knowledge that the carcasses of all great deceased runners were
exsanquinated before said carcasses were disposed of? And the blood taken from
these great runners-- Forego, Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, the Bid, etc-- was frozen?
And that this \"Champion Blood\" could be mass (re)produced using recombinant DNA
technology?
Hell I wouldn\'t be surprised if TAP, not satisfied to have a Belmont runner who
had Belmont winners on BOTH SIDES of her immediate pedigree, gave her a
transfusion of a couple of pints of Secretariat\'s blood, just to make sure she
got the distance.
I\'m getting goose bumps thinking that the blood of some of the great geldings
of our time-- like Forego-- raced into the future, even though a cruel turn of
the knife prevented us from ever seeing any produce from this game champion.
Michael Crichton meets Dick Francis and they drive off in the White Mercedes.
Who do you like in the first race at Jurarlington Park?
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck,
>
> I think, surprisingly, that you drank too much of
> the conspiracy White Mercedes stuff and lost focus
> of basic issues such as pricey fast stock and
> superior horse flesh. Fast horses make trainers
> look like better horsemen than they are.There is
> no substitute for talented horses except for
> illegal designer drugs.How are all of these things
> happening with NO ONE droping a dime and no real
> positives to speak of.The greatest conspiracy
> ever, this TAP thing you latched on.
First off, I have never conceded that Plech has the best horseflesh. The reality is that Plech spends his clients money at yearling auctions upon untested horses. With that type of stock acquistion there is reliance upon the acumen of the trainer to spot a horse that will not just get to the races but one that will win at the highest level. For every Scat Daddy there are 15 Green Monkeys and for every Green Monkey there are 500 horses costing far less with capable pedigrees.
Recently the Plech Stable has made a \"talking point\" out of the fact that it takes good horses to win and that they could not succeed without a continuing influx of top horseflesh. I think Lawyer Ron is a perfect illustration of what they state publically without elaboration. Ron was clearly a good horse. He was fast and aggressive, but he was a little distance limited. Once Plech got him he transformed. He left a well established performance threshold behind and advanced into a performance realm that no horse has entered before. As explanation for this transformation Plech had the audacity to state he put a better exercise rider upon him mornings.
I know people are gullible and will generally believe what someone in a position they are unfamilar with tells them, but it never ceases to amaze me.
The theme of this thread addresses the paucity of positives. We can\'t beat Lawyer Ron right now, but theres something afoot in the cheating realm. Theres been a change, I\'m trying to deduce precisely what. I think it involves a change to or within bloodpacking.
>
> There seems to be a small group of cheaters in NY
> who have stayed ahead of testing but with that
> playing field being leveled in the near future, it
> will really be interesting to see how the win
> percentage of some will be affected.Stay tuned.
Plech changed his methods at Saratoga. I\'m optimistic the trend will continue at Belmont.
>
>
> Mike
First off, I have never conceded that Plech has the best horseflesh.
Chuck,
With the exception of the Sheikh, who doesn\'t race here that much,it is not even close. A roster of TAP runners shows strong coverage in EVERY division dirt/ turf, fillies/ mares/ colts and it\'s by design, not coincidence.Believe me there is no barn, even in the same area of code when it comes to pure stock.Interesting you did not identify the outfit YOU feel has better stock.
I am not the least bit surprised that Lawyer Ron, a \"hard hitter\", even when Holthius had him at 3, has developed as a 4yr old.It\'s not like LR was a bum that has been Oscarized by TAP,at least not imo. Actually at three, I did not like this horse that much at the 1 and 1/4 distance and will be looking to take a shot against him depending on how they line up in the BC classic.
Mike
It\'s been awhile since I have posted but given my professional background on the topic I can\'t resist:
1) Auto transfusion after \"preparing\" RBC\'s as probably Lasse Viren did in the 1970\'s requires only an extraction or phlebotomy \"treatment\" and replacement. Donor Blood with all the complexities of minor and major antibody match makes working with the blood of another incredibly difficult and may even require immunosurpressives.
2) The laws of laminar flow and viscosity make polycythemia or providing additional red cell mass as a means of improving oxygen delivery very limited.
Moreover the oxygen delivery equations provide very little advantage at hemoglobin\'s above ten grams with DO2 or oxygen delivery
3) There is no role for a discussion of \"plasma or other blood components\" given that oxygen is minimally dissolved (1.34 ml/gram of Hgb) but is carried very well in delivery by the tetra-mere or 4 binding site molecule heme. It\'s the red cells that deliver the O2 predicated by the Ph of the tissues as acidic environments unload more O2.
Anaerobic and aerobic metabolism for human disease states are dependent on blood products to remain in a buffered state,or rapid removal of lactic acid as is seen in numerous human phase 4 medications currently used to treat sepsis by reversing lactic acidosis. These are far more interesting than the subject matter above.
As a blood bank director and attending critical care physician it would seem that the human model does not validate the information above in other posts but does have avenues which are applicable but in other contexts.
Very interested in hearing more about the lactic acid part, given the milkshake-in-a-pill )alkalizing agent) that is in use now.
I think I\'ll pass for the moment about describing phase 4 trials in humans that may lead to abuse in horses lest I set off a TGH brushfire of speculation and accusations. Maybe sometime in a more select forum these issues can be discussed
docicu3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I\'ll pass for the moment about describing
> phase 4 trials in humans that may lead to abuse in
> horses lest I set off a TGH brushfire of
> speculation and accusations. Maybe sometime in a
> more select forum these issues can be discussed
Wise Choice-
If your goal in using the jargon was to indicate to the readers here that you are an \"expert\" in the field, you\'ve succeeded in establishing that many here will understand that you used the jargon to establish that you are an expert in the field.
I\'d ask you to dispense with the medical terms and describe what you have outlined as if you\'re trying to have George W. Bush understand it. We\'re smarter than he is, but that way we\'ll be sure to understand your points.
My first question to you is whether you are in any way involved in doping oversight/testing as it pertains to the Human Population?
Secondly, regardless of your oversight involvement, do you agree with Michel Audran, (considered an expert in the Human Subject doping field), that red blood cell transfusions can increase performance by 5 to 20% depending upon how how thick the doper wants to make the blood?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20070724-1656-cyc-tourdefrance.html
Thirdly, I\'d like to know even if you dispute Michel Audran whether you believe the conclusions pertaining to Human Doping are applicable to Equine Doping?
docicu3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It\'s been awhile since I have posted but given my
> professional background on the topic I can\'t
> resist:
>
> 1) Auto transfusion after \"preparing\" RBC\'s as
> probably Lasse Viren did in the 1970\'s requires
> only an extraction or phlebotomy \"treatment\" and
> replacement. Donor Blood with all the
> complexities of minor and major antibody match
> makes working with the blood of another incredibly
> difficult and may even require
> immunosurpressives.
Assuming there are some antibody matching issues, how do you explain Alexandre Vinokourov\'s positive for donor blood in the Human field outlined in the attached link? He had a terrible spill and had stitches in both knees when he won a very difficult heat.
> 2) The laws of laminar flow and viscosity make
> polycythemia or providing additional red cell mass
> as a means of improving oxygen delivery very
> limited.
I take this to mean the freeway will be overly congested. Maybe even risking a traffic jam.
> Moreover the oxygen delivery equations provide
> very little advantage at hemoglobin\'s above ten
> grams with DO2 or oxygen delivery
Michel Audran says performance improvement of upwards of 20% is possible. I\'m not sure what \"above 10 grams of hemoglobin\'s\" refers to. I\'m assuming it means introduction of 10 extra grams. Maybe thats all it takes to get 20% improvement in Human performance. Obviously a horse is much bigger and probably has a bigger demand for oxygen than a human. A demand that goes beyond mere body mass. Maybe the effective amount is 200 grams or more for a horse at 10 times our body mass, without factoring a horses lung capacity to take in oxygen. Do you perceive your statements and those of Michel Audran as being reconcilable and if not why?
> 3) There is no role for a discussion of \"plasma or
> other blood components\" given that oxygen is
> minimally dissolved (1.34 ml/gram of Hgb) but is
> carried very well in delivery by the tetra-mere or
> 4 binding site molecule heme. It\'s the red cells
> that deliver the O2 predicated by the Ph of the
> tissues as acidic environments unload more O2.
The blood component I referred to was the oxygen carrying component. I do not believe I mentioned Plasma. But if you can link to show my error, I\'ll acknowledge it.
> Anaerobic and aerobic metabolism for human disease
> states are dependent on blood products to remain
> in a buffered state,or rapid removal of lactic
> acid as is seen in numerous human phase 4
> medications currently used to treat sepsis by
> reversing lactic acidosis. These are far more
> interesting than the subject matter above.
Maybe, but I\'d just point out that many of us here understand that it is a ballet between oxygen carrying capacity and fatigue. I tend to believe the performance issues involving oxygen have more impact than those that consider them to be based in fatigue. The host here is a very smart man. He tends to stress that the fatigue part of the equation is predominate in getting more performance out of the subject. Part of my reason for believing Oxygen is the correct focus involves the impact of EPO on the game. That said, I acknowledge losing bets all the time, even when I\'m right. I understand those involved in what we are discussing apply themselves to the fatigue angle also. As I said, the host here is a sharp guy, even if a little Freudian, and hes asked you to elaborate. I assure you some here are all ears.
>
> As a blood bank director and attending critical
> care physician it would seem that the human model
> does not validate the information above in other
> posts but does have avenues which are applicable
> but in other contexts.
CTC
Please find another person to present your personality disorder to, as your comments referencing my choice of words to express my opinion are not only rude and antagonistic but unveil your own problems with self esteem as often the prickly individual does such because they do not believe they are appreciated fully.
There is no reason to engage you further due to the fact that you clearly have no original thought based in science of your own relevant to the topic thus there is no reason to fuel your antagonism further.
I feel somewhat compelled to apologize for Chuckles attack on a piece you wrote that was so completely over my head as to cease reading the piece midway /first paragraph.
Envision Chuckles as Orson Welles,and his oratory on what is wrong with racing as his War of The Worlds.
I feel you see yourself as more a scientist than Dr.,hence the complicated response to questions raised.
If you decide to re-enter the fray(hopefully),try using bedside manners to educate the inspired but uninformed.
thanx
Richie my only surprise is with that creative mind of yours you aren\'t all over the games top cheaters like whipped cream on a turd.
The beauty of the blood of course is that the cheaters can get optimum performance out of blood from the slowest stable pony.
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sight:
>
> Sorry I gotta have a little fun with this.
>
> You asked Chuckto Star (Balto Star,a Glitterman
> product who TAP got to go 1-1/2
> miles on the turf, one of my favorite TAP runners)
> where the blood will come
> from.
>
> Isn\'t it common knowledge that the carcasses of
> all great deceased runners were
> exsanquinated before said carcasses were disposed
> of? And the blood taken from
> these great runners-- Forego, Slew, Affirmed,
> Alydar, the Bid, etc-- was frozen?
> And that this \"Champion Blood\" could be mass
> (re)produced using recombinant DNA
> technology?
>
> Hell I wouldn\'t be surprised if TAP, not satisfied
> to have a Belmont runner who
> had Belmont winners on BOTH SIDES of her immediate
> pedigree, gave her a
> transfusion of a couple of pints of Secretariat\'s
> blood, just to make sure she
> got the distance.
>
> I\'m getting goose bumps thinking that the blood of
> some of the great geldings
> of our time-- like Forego-- raced into the future,
> even though a cruel turn of
> the knife prevented us from ever seeing any
> produce from this game champion.
>
> Michael Crichton meets Dick Francis and they drive
> off in the White Mercedes.
> Who do you like in the first race at Jurarlington
> Park?
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First off, I have never conceded that Plech has
> the best horseflesh.
>
>
>
> Chuck,
>
> With the exception of the Sheikh, who doesn\'t race
> here that much,it is not even close. A roster of
> TAP runners shows strong coverage in EVERY
> division dirt/ turf, fillies/ mares/ colts and
> it\'s by design, not coincidence.Believe me there
> is no barn, even in the same area of code when it
> comes to pure stock.Interesting you did not
> identify the outfit YOU feel has better stock.
I don\'t bet Turf, but without full immersion in that surface, my impression is that Plech is not a top notch turf trainer. Today he has three horses going. All on Turf. His juveniles did not fair well at the Spa. Today 2 of them compete in the same turf race.
I also don\'t believe Plech is a top notch Poly trainer. Once again that is a general impression, because I don\'t Follow Poly.
Baffert has good horses. McGaughey has good horses, albeit in smaller numbers. Tagg is getting good horses. Mott, Frankel, Asmussen, McLaughlin all have good horses.
What Plech has is a bigger barn. But bigger does not mean better, unless you\'re a woman with that look in your eye.
> I am not the least bit surprised that Lawyer Ron,
> a \"hard hitter\", even when Holthius had him at 3,
> has developed as a 4yr old.It\'s not like LR was a
> bum that has been Oscarized by TAP,at least not
> imo. Actually at three, I did not like this horse
> that much at the 1 and 1/4 distance and will be
> looking to take a shot against him depending on
> how they line up in the BC classic.
>
>
Ron was a precocious 2YO improved at 3 and exploded off the chart at 4. There was no room for that type of improvement. His previous trainer was not the hack intimated by those trying to defend Lawyer Ron\'s improvement. Ron is now the fastest horse in the history of horseracing. His recovery off the Whitney was inexplicable.
Chuck,
I expected a better attempt than that.ALL the trainers combined(that you mentioned) would maybe come close in quality and accomplishment to Tap\'s present barn.Shug,Tagg, Mc Laughlin,compared to the TAP string, you are pulling my leg.
Forgetting about where they finished, the guy started 5 in the derby alone, a testament to the depth and quality of his barn, not his training ability.
TAP now sits with AGS,RTR,LAWYER RON,WAIT A WHILE to name a few,and many other graded stakes winners in baby and other divisions, dirt and grass. Again, that does not mean he is the best horseman, but unquestionably has the best stock, by far.
Mike
Yeah, but if you use terminology that you know 99% of your readers will not understand, is that communication or something else?
Actually the terminology provides precise meaning and is really not all that complex. If you want to talk the subject matter a basic understanding of the verbage is necessary.
Racing is no different as words like gelding and mud caulks require a little work to understand.
The words in medicine like the concepts are actually pretty simplistic but precise.
Separating oxygen delivery (or how much oxygen is available for the tissues of a horse to use) as an alleged performance enhancement from the issues of acidemia (or too much hydrogen(lactic acid) in the blood which the horses and human\'s brain(stem) translates as \"breathe faster and deeper\" thus impacting the horses ability to run as you can only breathe so fast (ventilatory maximum which when exceeded causes that hydrogen to accumulate in the blood and tissues which is translated to the horses brain as \"stop running and you\'ll need to breathe less\"
Thus there are two places to change the equation of performance leaving one with the only relevant question. Do I need more oxygen or less acid as a means to improve performance and run faster longer. Answer: Less Acid(which is another way of saying more alkaline or \"milk shake like\"
The experimental meds I am talking about work on the \"remove the acid faster\" or \"stop the acid from accumulating\" part of the equation. Oxygen is manipulatable to some extent but is not where gains can be seen. Stop the horse from accumulating acid in his blood so he doesn\'t have to waste energy breathing fast to stop the pain and you allow the horse to deliver what it is capable of for a longer period. It doesn\'t make it run faster but use his God given talent longer.
This whole discussion can be summarized as aerobic VS anaerobic. Nothing more complex than that. With oxygen and without excess acid!!!
This sounds like Mr Rodger\'s visits horse racing but I am trying people, and it reads to me like I am not doing the subject justice.
Appreciate the attempt to speak in laymans terms. I have to run but will review your post carefully when I return.
If the primary focus is acid, we still have the Tour de France oxygen implications. We also know the broncho dialators involve increasing oxygen.
Regarding the acid focus, I thought the following article might pique some curiosity. It says that lactic acid really isn\'t lactic acid at all. In fact it seems to support Stillinger and Oscar B.:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?ex=1305432000&en=2778e99d7eab85a6&ei=5090
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually the terminology provides precise meaning
> and is really not all that complex. If you want
> to talk the subject matter a basic understanding
> of the verbage is necessary.
>
> Racing is no different as words like gelding and
> mud caulks require a little work to understand.
>
> The words in medicine like the concepts are
> actually pretty simplistic but precise.
> Separating oxygen delivery (or how much oxygen is
> available for the tissues of a horse to use) as an
> alleged performance enhancement from the issues of
> acidemia (or too much hydrogen(lactic acid) in the
> blood which the horses and human\'s brain(stem)
> translates as \"breathe faster and deeper\" thus
> impacting the horses ability to run as you can
> only breathe so fast (ventilatory maximum which
> when exceeded causes that hydrogen to accumulate
> in the blood and tissues which is translated to
> the horses brain as \"stop running and you\'ll need
> to breathe less\"
>
> Thus there are two places to change the equation
> of performance leaving one with the only relevant
> question. Do I need more oxygen or less acid as a
> means to improve performance and run faster
> longer. Answer: Less Acid(which is another way of
> saying more alkaline or \"milk shake like\"
>
> The experimental meds I am talking about work on
> the \"remove the acid faster\" or \"stop the acid
> from accumulating\" part of the equation. Oxygen is
> manipulatable to some extent but is not where
> gains can be seen. Stop the horse from
> accumulating acid in his blood so he doesn\'t have
> to waste energy breathing fast to stop the pain
> and you allow the horse to deliver what it is
> capable of for a longer period. It doesn\'t make
> it run faster but use his God given talent
> longer.
>
> This whole discussion can be summarized as aerobic
> VS anaerobic. Nothing more complex than that.
> With oxygen and without excess acid!!!
>
> This sounds like Mr Rodger\'s visits horse racing
> but I am trying people, and it reads to me like I
> am not doing the subject justice.
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Appreciate the attempt to speak in laymans terms.
> I have to run but will review your post carefully
> when I return.
>
> If the primary focus is acid, we still have the
> Tour de France oxygen implications.
You are lumping together two diffferent exercise conditions which have entirely different acid-base problems. (too little or too much acid)
You cant discuss sprinting the 100 yard dash and running the marathon (26.2) miles as if they are the same
We also know the broncho dialators involve increasing oxygen.
Actually no....bronchodilators allow you to better ventilate or move more carbon dioxide per breath said another way, lower your carbon dioxide in your blood level. They work by relaxing the smooth muscle IN the lungs or they make the airways , or pipes bigger thus they lower pulmonary Resistance or the ability for gas (carbon dioxide) to move out of the lungs. We have just described the approach to how we treat asthma acutely. The asthmatic has no trouble getting air in but a whole heap of trouble getting air out thus their lungs are still somewhat inflated at the end of a breath allowing no room for the next breath.
The oxygen gains have to do with lowering the CO2 level for the most part. There is also this other concept about the affinity for oxygen to bind on a red cell that you really don\'t want me to get into less both of our heads explode!!
>
> Regarding the acid focus, I thought the following
> article might pique some curiosity. It says that
> lactic acid really isn\'t lactic acid at all. In
> fact it seems to support Stillinger and Oscar B.:
There are two types of lactic acidosis or ways to accumulate lactate. One does have to do with a low oxygen environment the other is a problem utilizing the normal oxygen available.
They both have in common the concept of anaerobic metabolism(without ENOUGH oxygen) vs aerobic(with ENOUGH oxygen). In order to explain why this is important we\'d have to discuss the \"Krebs cycle\" or the scientific basis for why with breaking down glucose in one way (aerobic) gives you 36 little energy units to use in exercise VS the other way (anaerobic) where your starting with the same fuel as above and getting only a fraction of those energy units to use.
Although we are using the terms aerobic (with oxygen) and anaerobic (without oxygen) we are really talking about fuel or ATP energy units which have nothing to do with oxygen.
I realize this is insanely confusing but thats why the language is so precise and thus over a lot of heads. The words indicate very discrete scientific meaning that takes years of education and practice to get used to. It is not talking down to anyone but alot like dead money at the breeders cup each year.
People will poor money into pools based on birthdays and colors and random numbers most of has very minimal chance of success but doesn\'t understand that making money at horse handicapping requires an education that takes years of experience(sorry Mr Brown you may be able to teach the TGH approach in a small amount of time but betting sucessfully takes years IMO)
If the dead money player were to ask the handicapper to explain how and what they bet the frustration that would ensue as the two realize they don\'t speak the same language and thus can\'t communicate is very similar to trying to explain these concepts and not use the words intended to communicate.
Oxygenation and ventilation are very different though related. The science of the explanation is very complex. The same goes for acid-base physiology (the basis for explaining Lactic Acid accumulation) or the simple act of reading an arterial blood gas,notice I didn\'t say venous bicarbonate level as is currently followed by the bodies that govern racing for horses that win in some juristictions and Mr Brown is working so hard to make public in the DRF or TGH sheets.
By following venous bicarbonate levels your not looking for the cheaters in the best place to catch them (the arterial or supply side) so it is very likely to cheat using the newer generation medications and not be caught by conventional testing. That is likely one of the reasons some of the super trainers remain elusive. Your trying to catch them robbing you coming out of the bank while they clean you out through a computer theft.
Ahh enough for one morning I gotta go make a living....
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition
> /16run.html?ex=1305432000&en=2778e99d7eab85a6&ei=5
> 090
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually the terminology provides precise
> meaning
> > and is really not all that complex. If you
> want
> > to talk the subject matter a basic
> understanding
> > of the verbage is necessary.
> >
> > Racing is no different as words like gelding
> and
> > mud caulks require a little work to understand.
> >
> > The words in medicine like the concepts are
> > actually pretty simplistic but precise.
> > Separating oxygen delivery (or how much oxygen
> is
> > available for the tissues of a horse to use) as
> an
> > alleged performance enhancement from the issues
> of
> > acidemia (or too much hydrogen(lactic acid) in
> the
> > blood which the horses and human\'s brain(stem)
> > translates as \"breathe faster and deeper\" thus
> > impacting the horses ability to run as you can
> > only breathe so fast (ventilatory maximum which
> > when exceeded causes that hydrogen to
> accumulate
> > in the blood and tissues which is translated to
> > the horses brain as \"stop running and you\'ll
> need
> > to breathe less\"
> >
> > Thus there are two places to change the
> equation
> > of performance leaving one with the only
> relevant
> > question. Do I need more oxygen or less acid as
> a
> > means to improve performance and run faster
> > longer. Answer: Less Acid(which is another way
> of
> > saying more alkaline or \"milk shake like\"
> >
> > The experimental meds I am talking about work
> on
> > the \"remove the acid faster\" or \"stop the acid
> > from accumulating\" part of the equation. Oxygen
> is
> > manipulatable to some extent but is not where
> > gains can be seen. Stop the horse from
> > accumulating acid in his blood so he doesn\'t
> have
> > to waste energy breathing fast to stop the pain
> > and you allow the horse to deliver what it is
> > capable of for a longer period. It doesn\'t
> make
> > it run faster but use his God given talent
> > longer.
> >
> > This whole discussion can be summarized as
> aerobic
> > VS anaerobic. Nothing more complex than that.
> > With oxygen and without excess acid!!!
> >
> > This sounds like Mr Rodger\'s visits horse
> racing
> > but I am trying people, and it reads to me like
> I
> > am not doing the subject justice.
It seems to me we need more people with your expertise working in the industry so it has a better idea of what to look for. It\'s not really necessary for the bettors to understand the science of cheating and avoiding detection.
As someone concerned with the well being of the horses and a level playing field for trainers and owners (notice I didn\'t say bettors), I want someone to catch the cheaters until the industry comes to its senses and implements rules more like those in the rest of the world and enforces them in ways that make it uneconomical to cheat to begin with.
What you said re-enforces my understanding from someones\' post months ago.
That person stated that the horse\'s courage was extended due to lack of fatigue,or feeling the effects coming on.
Of course when MTMC2returns,we\'ll have a clearer picture!
Doc,
Thanks for your time - we all get that you guys are busy!
Question:
Jerry recently said something about the addition of fat to the diet of an equine individual. Last year, after being crossed off for dead of old age at 60, due to \"lifestyle challenges\" - war -mania -horses - coffee - cigarettes for decades, etc., I traded the then veggie diet I had been prescribed in order to increase my panreatic enzyme among other things, for a high fat, high protien, amino acid diet with \"fat burning\" exercise daily. At that point, I got lactic acid burn just by standing up.
The first reaction was I couldn\'t get enough air to keep up the heart rate, but I pushed through it. Second, I got so acidic I thought my kidneys would fail. I backed off a little, kept the diet, exercise, and feel great only months after will signing. You address metabolizing glucose but no mention of what impact or significance it might have in terms of stamina to enhance the metabolism of fat in equines. Is that what is happening in jogs? Gallops? Two minute licks?
Please be as \"professionally precise\" as you need to be - I can figure out what the words mean if you dump \'em in here. I should plug Frank Schallenberger, Nevada Center, Carson City, an orthomolecular doc for being around to ask dumb questions - like, don\'t the beasties need a little fat and long slow gallops ala the classic trainers that we all respect, give them, in lieu of the turn the cash around, steroids instead of rest, that many receive? I admit to a little testoserone use personally (he said I have enough growth hormone, but if he said to, I would take it), so I ain\'t pointing fingers, just askin\' the doctor?
skip
Very interesting stuff from docicu3, especially when posed in \'english\'
At the time Oscar Barrera was in full stride, my observation was that the horses did not run \'faster\' they simply did not \'tire\' as expected at the usual points in the race. Simple as that, and in line with the discussion.
Would also explain why SPEED was desired, as a closer would not benefit as much from the extra \'stay\' that was being induced.
None of this is new, but apparently the methods are increasingly sophisticated.
You would need a million dollar grant to answer that one my friend. Perhaps one day we will revisit this but you ask so many questions only Mr Wizard could handle this one.
> Jerry recently said something about the addition
> of fat to the diet of an equine individual.
> You address metabolizing glucose but no
> mention of what impact or significance it might
> have in terms of stamina to enhance the metabolism
> of fat in equines.
A performance-horse diet of up to about 10% fat (after the animal has been metabolically adapted to the higher-fat diet, over about 6 weeks or so) has been shown to slightly diminish glycogen depletion, moderately reduce plasma lactate accumulation, and therefor slightly to moderately delay the onset of fatigue.
Can you give a horse a bunch of fat to suddenly get increased performance? No.
Can you feed a performance horse optimally for his discipline? Yes, and it should be done.
sighthound Wrote:
> A performance-horse diet of up to about 10% fat
> (after the animal has been metabolically adapted
> to the higher-fat diet, over about 6 weeks or so)
> has been shown to slightly diminish glycogen
> depletion, moderately reduce plasma lactate
> accumulation, and therefor slightly to moderately
> delay the onset of fatigue.
>
> Can you give a horse a bunch of fat to suddenly
> get increased performance? No.
>
> Can you feed a performance horse optimally for his
> discipline? Yes, and it should be done.
Sight,
I appreciate this response;
do I owe you the million or should I
send it to the doc as we are by now
conditioned to do? kiddin\' ya, doc.
And I was gettin\' ready to ask you to
go into how the O2 binds to the red cells,
but that answer would no doubt rival Kee
yearlings by AP Indy in price.
skip