August 2002, was a very tragic month for Plech.
It started well. Despite being a little \"short winded\" for much of his career on August 3rd Left Bank won the Whitney against Street Cry and Lido Palace. He won the race in Track Record time, having set a track record in his previous race. A week after the Whitney Left Bank became sick with some sort of internal disorder. One week he\'s running faster at the Spa than any horse ever has, but for Lawyer Ron, and the next week, he\'s deathly sick. They are strawberries, but one has to wonder how a horse can be on death\'s door so close to a level of performance that would require optimum health? Or maybe one wouldn\'t wonder? At any rate, the Whitney was Left Bank\'s last race and two months after running it, he was dead:
http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=11936
These things can happen. Swale died 3 days after the Belmont from a heart attack, but they happen rarely right?
Two days after Left Banks surgery on August 10th, 2002, the Plech trained, undefeated Freedom\'s Daughter was put down suffering from another mysterious intestinal ailment. She had won a graded 2YO stakes just 2 weeks prior. Odd and rare how a horse can die so close to an effort that would require top physical form. It makes one wonder or does it?:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=10681
http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=10936
On August 17th, 2002 A week after Left Bank became ill and Freedom\'s Daughter Died, a 1 million, stakes placed, Dehere Colt trained by Plech came down with a strange malady, Plech described it in these terms:
\"The complications were a result of the illness he had, which is yet to be determined exactly what it is,\" Pletcher said. \"It\'s projected that it\'s clostridium or salmonella, or something like that. They\'ve sent him to Cornell for an autopsy.\"
http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=11079
Clearly a very bad week for Plech. Was Allday there? If so, why was Plech so confused about the nature of the illnesses which simultaneously felled three of his stars? Wonder what those autopsies concluded? Wait, I forgot, other than one man the crowd here isn\'t very curious.
It could happen to anybody, even in threes, but if it was bad grain, why didn\'t it strike his whole stable? And other stables at the meet? Why just Plech\'s top level performers at their peak?
Just bad luck I guess.
Plech is lucky he has so many of the best horses and best personnel though. He got through it and it hasn\'t happened quite like that again. Probably because he learns from his mistakes. He\'s the best right?
lol
CtMC
Enough with this stuff dude. Maybe Congress should get involed, or better yet go get a job walking hots for TAP.
You bring this story up every year too.
Don\'t you think it\'s been fully investigated by now?
You need to go on a crusade.....or hire a couple of private investigators, but keep it out of here,until you got real news.
You are only paying attention to yourself.
NC Tony
Tony, you illustrate the problem perfectly. You\'re a fairly involved gambler. You love the risk and reward of the game. You\'re invested in it. You purchase the best products, travel to events on a fairly regular basis and consider yourself fairly proficient. But you\'ve never once really felt the pulse of the event. You\'re too busy, somewhat unobservant and respectfully disengaged. It takes attention to detail and/or a very sharp wit to ascertain the things that exist just under the surface. The things that you can\'t see, the things no one will tell you about. (Almost no one)
In that regard, lets address your charge that I bring up the Plech\'s August 2002 problem all the time. Tony, I watched it when it unfolded and knew from speed figures and Plech\'s evasive comments that his horses were dying from reaction to being over medicated, but this is the very first time I have posted the public details. How can one determine the truth when one can\'t even ascertain or remember the facts? But try focusing upon the event rather than whether its been repeated.
Spa gets hung up in an illustration of why folks like Irwin avoid the truth, by ignoring the evasion and focusing upon the resolution.
Blindhound gets verbose and then apologetic. At least he\'s thinking about it.
I\'m not sure why I sometimes take the time to lead the wild mustangs here to the water hole. Well, then again, yes I do. I don\'t really care about the mustangs. I actually prefer their ignorance. But, the game needs a major correction and nothing would send a stronger message to all the cheaters than to ban the games top cheater and his Vet.
Plech is and has been doping and is getting away with it. I can\'t say it anymore clearly than that.
CtMC
NoCarolinaTony Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You bring this story up every year too.
>
> Don\'t you think it\'s been fully investigated by
> now?
>
> You need to go on a crusade.....or hire a couple
> of private investigators, but keep it out of
> here,until you got real news.
>
> You are only paying attention to yourself.
>
> NC Tony
Ctc,
Believe me, I know drugs are going on on all circuits at varying degree\'s. I also knew/know that what happened to TAP back in 2002 was very strange to say the least. Not sure you can associate the vet in this case, with this. I also thought that colic was the autopsies cause of death to all three. TGJB always brings up the Frankel 3-4 point jump up back then too. We all knew it was weird, but if we were playing the game it was element of handicapping. Could it be a fungus in the feed that killed these three, could have been many things. All I am saying is you don\'t know the truth with certainty, you\'re taking an educated guess.
Which brings us to Lawyer Ron, assciative logic may not apply here. Holthaus, while a decent trainer, is not into modern training techniques or modern science either.
If you were a judge back in the wild west, you\'d hang the man, then have the trial.
NC Tony
I think if TAP has ever cheated, it was probably back in the day before he was established. Now, he has a lot to lose, and he has great horses, so i really would doubt there\'s hard core drugging going on with him currently. Maybe he\'s doing stuff to \'keep up with the joneses\' but i doubt he\'s hitting the snake venom bottle or other morphine-strength drugs.
Has TAP ever cheated? I guess that\'s the 64 dollar question. I don\'t know, maybe he\'s snow white and just got to the top with hard work?
The one thing i wonder about all these very top of the line trainers is this. If its possible to get to the Pletcher level completely on oats and hay, that must mean cheating isn\'t really all that effective. Why risk drugging when TAP\'s oats and hay runners are blowing your doors off?
Once someone knows the basic facts of the Plech stable die off of August 2002, it gets pretty difficult to continue to assert the \"Ostrich Defense\", which is, since my head is in the ground and I can\'t see, it must not be happening.
The next defense mechanism is the one imallin is using. \"Plech has the best horses and best reputation so he has too much to lose to continuing doping even if he did dope in the past.\" (We\'ll leave the assertion that he has the ability to select the best sale horses and buys the best sale horses aside for now, conceding merely that he does pay a lot for horses.)
But there lies the rub. Plech was just another trainer until 2000. Then suddenly he began coming up with an inordinate number of stakes horses. Assume for the sake of argument that he did take on Steve Allday at this time and that Allday began doping his horses in 2000 and that Plech\'s stakes record increased due to the doping and that in fact his \"edge\" lies in performance enhancing dope. Wouldn\'t such a trainer have just as much to lose by discontinuing his doping edge and losing his competitive advantage to the point where the stakes wins no longer flowed and his personnel and clients dried up? In other words, if dope is your edge how does one discontinue that edge without losing everything just as assuredly as one would by being caught through testing? In that regard at least with testing there are hearings and review policies in place. But you must admit it would end much quicker if he ended it by his own hand by discontinuing the dope.
Plech is easy to read, but he isn\'t stupid. He\'s just not legitimate. He\'s playing all the angles, and even dispensing with the dope at certain times in certain locales. He knows full well that he can\'t maintain his edge without the dope and he won\'t kick the habit until the net closes in a bit tighter upon him.
In that regard, do what you can do. Write NYRA and the Boards of the racing states, inform them of the facts and demand greater scrutiny of cheaters in general and Plech in particular.
I\'ll show you how to beat him though, tune in for the Travers.
This has to be my last post on the issue this weekend. I have a couple races to win and beating Plech is in the mix.
CtMC
imallin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think if TAP has ever cheated, it was probably
> back in the day before he was established. Now, he
> has a lot to lose, and he has great horses, so i
> really would doubt there\'s hard core drugging
> going on with him currently. Maybe he\'s doing
> stuff to \'keep up with the joneses\' but i doubt
> he\'s hitting the snake venom bottle or other
> morphine-strength drugs.
>
> Has TAP ever cheated? I guess that\'s the 64 dollar
> question. I don\'t know, maybe he\'s snow white and
> just got to the top with hard work?
>
> The one thing i wonder about all these very top of
> the line trainers is this. If its possible to get
> to the Pletcher level completely on oats and hay,
> that must mean cheating isn\'t really all that
> effective. Why risk drugging when TAP\'s oats and
> hay runners are blowing your doors off?
At the risk of sounding stupid...Could it be the quality of horses he has been fortunate to get and he has been very well schooled..
During his summers off from junior and senior high school, Todd worked as a groom for his father at Louisiana Downs in Bossier City, LA and at Ak-sar-Ben Racetrack in Omaha, NE.
Between his junior and senior years in high school, Todd went to Southern California, where he worked as a hot walker for Henry Moreno at Hollywood Park and Del Mar.
Graduated from high school in San Antonio, TX in 1985.
Todd began college at the University of Arizona Race Track Industry Program in Tucson, AZ in the fall of 1985.
Between his sophomore and junior years in college, Todd worked as a groom for D. Wayne Lukas at Arlington Park in Chicago, IL.
Todd spent the following summer with another Hall of Fame trainer, Charlie Whittingham, working as a groom at Hollywood Park.
Graduated from college with a Bachelor of Animal Science in May, 1989.
Todd traveled to New York to begin working for D. Wayne Lukas as a foreman immediately upon graduating from college.
In 1991, Todd was promoted to assistant trainer for D. Wayne Lukas, splitting his time between New York and Florida.
Todd was Lukas\' East Coast assistant until the end of 1995, in which time he was instrumental in the development of such horses as Thunder Gulch, Harlan, Serena\'s Song, A Wild Ride and Flanders.
Todd took out his trainer\'s license in December of 1995 and saddled his first winner, Majestic Number, in February of 1996.
I repeat myself, but must reply again: Lawyer Ron was good with Holthus in spite of a VERY BAD exercise rider. This alone accounts for his improvement.
CtC:
I have as much patience for your posts as anyone, but on this particular topic
it is time for you to \"put up or shut up\".
You say \"ASSUME for the sake of argument that (Pletcher) did take on Steve
Allday (in 2000)...\" Why should we ASSUME this? Because it makes your theory
more viable? The information is out there. As the architect of the \"Pletcher
was just another trainer until he hooked up with Allday\" theory, you owe it to
yourself and the rest of us to determine EXACTLY WHEN ALLDAY BEGAN TREATING
PLETCHER\'S HORSES.
You establish 2000 as a line of demarcation in Pletcher\'s emergence as a top
trainer. Can we ASSUME that TAP had much better racing stock to work with after
2000 than before 2000? The people who are buying the high priced bloodstock you
mention could give these runners to any trainer-- from known doper Patrick
Biancone to the hay oats and water guys like Mott or Nafzger (or even the very
blonde but very inept Jamie Sanders). Is there any better proof of the
superiority of the bloodstock which TAP has access to than the fact that he was
able to win the 2007 Belmont with a filly who was a half sibling to the 2006
Belmont Stakes winner, and was sired by the 1992 Belmont Stakes winner?
In relation to the death of Left Bank, we do not have to ASSUME here. Simply
using any popular search engine you can see that Left Bank fell victim to colic;
if you go past the first or second articles, you will see that Left Bank was a
colic prone animal(he had a serious bout of colic as a 2YO which resulted in
the removal of a portion of his intestine).
Your post dissolves into sheer hysteria at the end, where you say \"Write NYRA
and the boards of the racing states, inform them of the facts and demand
greater scrutiny of cheaters in general and Pletcher in particular\"
As Alex Rodriquez once famously said while rounding the bases in a game against
the Blue Jays, HA!. What is NYRA going to do against Pletcher (one marginal
positive in 11 years while saddling a high volume of runners) when they allow
known cheater Patrick Biancone (excluded from participation in racing on two
continents, currently under investigation in Kentucky) to continue to ply his
trade?
The truth is out there CTC. The inclusion of the truth in your posts,especially
when it replaces mere conjecture, would strengthen your arguments.
Pletcher blanked in all major turf races, guess duhh white mercedes was out of gas, duhh!
Colic?....lmao
Richie, I don\'t recall a solitary word about Left Bank having colic as a 2YO. I\'d check your source and come back and pin it down with certainty.
That said if Left Bank really did \"Colic\" at 2, to my mind that would mean Allday began medicating Plech runners in 1999, because that was Left Bank\'s 2YO year. You have to remember Byrne\'s big year was 1997 and Allday Vetted for him. Byrne jumped to Stronach and its merely a question of when did Plech reach out for the magic he witnessed in 1997. We know Allday was there for the die off. Was he there for the first Derby entries? Was he there for an alleged 2YO Left Bank Colic?
Colic is a euphemism for a wide range of ailments in horses Richie. They have delicate systems and when ill they break down in the intestine and foot very readily. The issue is not that they have \"Colic\" its why did the condition manifest itself?
Richie Left Bank didn\'t die from Colic and Freedom\'s Daughter didn\'t die from Colitis X and Warners didn\'t die from salmonella. They never did pin down the exact cause of any of their deaths and its a good thing for Plech and Allday they didn\'t.
He\'s still at it and he\'s learned from bad experiences too. But there is a way to beat him. Part of that way will involve pressure to make him come clean, but we\'ll get him eventually. The tests for blood-packing are still in their infancy, but they\'ll get there as well. I\'ve let on to about 80% of what I know. I\'m not going to share the other 20% for a number of reasons. Its a good 20% though and its direct evidence. I will tease you by stating that I now know what a \"titration\" is. If you want to solve the Plech dilemma I\'ve given out enough for the curious to solve it. Irwin even has enough to begin, but in the end you have to want it for yourself and in that regard I say:
\"Ask not what Chuckles the Clown can additionally show you, Ask what you can reveal to corroborate (or discredit) Chuckles the Magnificent Clown.\"
If I could have 10 minutes with Plech or Allday in a moderated live radio interview, I would reduce either to a sniveling, evading with no where to hide, charlatan shell of a faux horseman and in those 10 minutes drive their clients from them like lemmings into the sea.
I\'ll contact At the Races with my proposition and ask them to extend the challenge. Like Irwin though, its likely that At the Races won\'t propose the challenge and that if extended, that the defendants would flee the interview. If I was as big a cheater and had to confront someone that both knew the truth and how to elicit it I would flee too.
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Colic?....lmao
>
> Richie, I don\'t recall a solitary word about Left
> Bank having colic as a 2YO. I\'d check your source
> and come back and pin it down with certainty.
>
> That said if Left Bank really did \"Colic\" at 2, to
> my mind that would mean Allday began medicating
> Plech runners in 1999, because that was Left
> Bank\'s 2YO year. You have to remember Byrne\'s big
> year was 1997 and Allday Vetted for him. Byrne
> jumped to Stronach and its merely a question of
> when did Plech reach out for the magic he
> witnessed in 1997. We know Allday was there for
> the die off. Was he there for the first Derby
> entries? Was he there for an alleged 2YO Left Bank
> Colic?
>
> Colic is a euphemism for a wide range of ailments
> in horses Richie. They have delicate systems and
> when ill they break down in the intestine and foot
> very readily. The issue is not that they have
> \"Colic\" its why did the condition manifest
> itself?
>
> Richie Left Bank didn\'t die from Colic and
> Freedom\'s Daughter didn\'t die from Colitis X and
> Warners didn\'t die from salmonella. They never did
> pin down the exact cause of any of their deaths
> and its a good thing for Plech and Allday they
> didn\'t.
>
> He\'s still at it and he\'s learned from bad
> experiences too. But there is a way to beat him.
> Part of that way will involve pressure to make him
> come clean, but we\'ll get him eventually. The
> tests for blood-packing are still in their
> infancy, but they\'ll get there as well. I\'ve let
> on to about 80% of what I know. I\'m not going to
> share the other 20% for a number of reasons. Its a
> good 20% though and its direct evidence. I will
> tease you by stating that I now know what a
> \"titration\" is. If you want to solve the Plech
> dilemma I\'ve given out enough for the curious to
> solve it. Irwin even has enough to begin, but in
> the end you have to want it for yourself and in
> that regard I say:
>
> \"Ask not what Chuckles the Clown can additionally
> show you, Ask what you can reveal to corroborate
> (or discredit) Chuckles the Magnificent Clown.\"
>
> If I could have 10 minutes with Plech or Allday in
> a moderated live radio interview, I would reduce
> either to a sniveling, evading with no where to
> hide, charlatan shell of a faux horseman and in
> those 10 minutes drive their clients from them
> like lemmings into the sea.
>
> I\'ll contact At the Races with my proposition and
> ask them to extend the challenge. Like Irwin
> though, its likely that At the Races won\'t propose
> the challenge and that if extended, that the
> defendants would flee the interview. If I was as
> big a cheater and had to confront someone that
> both knew the truth and how to elicit it I would
> flee too.
ctc, did you face Barry, or did you decide not to?
At the risk of having a new asshole reamed by many of the posters here because in their eyes I\'m just a \"lucky asshole bugler\", I\'m going out on a limb here to offer my observations ( I do get paid to observe, so I\'m confident that I know my observations are accurate) and hope you will be patient enough to indulge me here:
Chuck: I used to have a real problem with anger and depression. I got help and got \"cured\", although many people choose to put me \"in a box\" and refuse to believe it. That\'s a long story and I won\'t go into the details, but there was one time before I got help that my younger brother said to me after I was complaining about a family matter: \"You know, we know everything you say is right, but your delivery sucks! And therefore we ignore you.\"
I know Todd well enough to say hello. He knows who I am and we used to watch races together when he worked for Lukas. He\'s not a friend, just an aquaintance. But we have a mutual respect for each other. He has no problem walking up to me (unlike his boss) and shaking my hand.
I personally do not believe he\'s a cheater, just a great student and has learned from mistakes of his teachers. But I do believe that there is so much cheating going on that I choose not to put my $ through the windows any more as a professional handicapper (with lifetime profit in the tens of thousands of dollars still intact).
I do think some of the personal attacks against Chuck are warrented because of his delivery, but I also look at those same people attacking Chuck and their posts and can\'t help but think they are sadly brainwashed into believing that Chuck\'s accusations are impossible.
Chuck:
I am not computer literate enough to link articles or websites to the TG board,
but the following comes from \"the horse.com (Your Guide to Equine Health Care)\".
Article 10072, dated July 28, 2007, authored by Cristy West, contains the
following:
\"The first six months after colic surgery is the critical period, and if you
get to one year after surgery, you can relax a little,\" [Dr.] Freeman
said. \"People think that a horse after colic surgery is finished, but thats not
true. We know that many of these horses go back to very top level performance.
For example, Left Bank was a thoroughbred who colicked as a two year old and
had some small intestine removed. He raced from two to five years old and had
24 starts and 14 wins...\"
The Dr. Freeman who is quoted is a veterinarian on the faculty of the
University of Florida.
Your approach, and your writing style, are such that the occasional inclusion of
some facts would do nothing to dilute your posts or soften their impact.
I am in Chicago today.
I ran into Jim Garrison, the former DA from New Orleans who made a fool out of himself with a JFK conspiracy theory. He said that he and Mort Sahl wanted to get together for lunch with Chuckles the Clown to put the final touches on the Pletcher doping case. They figure that this will be their best chance to redeem themselves.
They\'ve lined up Pierre Salinger and we are going to go downtown, hit a few missions and flop houses and try to find The Clown. Will report back later on any findings.
By the way, what\'s less expensive, Ripple or Thunderbird, in case we need a few bottles to ease our way through the jungles of the Windy City.
I wonder if Nelson Algren might know.
CtC2 - IMO Even if some of what your saying is remotely plausible - it still doesn\'t prove anything . Personally , I feel that you might strengthen your argument by discussing the \"numbers\" and \"progeny\" of these horses when addressing performance , breeding or health issues . Sunday at DMR there is a certain trainer with-out a single horse entered on the card - coincidental ? circumstantial ? It seems to marginally contradict your theory ...
MO, when it comes to observations, there is no one better at them than a handicapper. The problem is gamblers are not very good at observations and there\'s the rub.
Its not my delivery that is the problem. I\'m throwing it over the plate, but there\'s too much velocity and movement for many of the batters in this park to even see the pill. let alone make contact.
I\'m sure Plech is a nice guy. I\'m sure he wouldn\'t intentionally club a baby seal or win knowing his horse had to die. I honestly believe that losing the horses bothers him. In his comments from the die off, you can read between the lines and understand he was struggling with experimenting on them. I\'m also certain he ingratiates himself easily. But, you\'re not saying a nice guy can\'t be as money motivated and self interested as the next check kiter, bank robber or axe murderer are you?
MO, a fair percentage of the posters here are pari mutual fodder. They don\'t have any significance other than adding to the pools. Among them you\'ll find trainer bettors and those type cash often enough on Plech that they consider challenging him blasphemy. Then there\'s the group of guys that include you. Folks without ego that are civil to all. I\'m not in your league there, but if you note I only let those have it that are rude and have the truth coming to them on ignorance.
But MO its within Your power. If you shake hands with Plech now and then ask him. Break into it with psychology. Tell him you just read an interesting article on Allday and that you understand he works for Plech, then slide into asking when Allday first began treating horses for him.
You\'ll find its right at the time I\'ve indicated.
I\'ll drop the topic for the time being. Those that can contribute now understand how. We\'ll pick it up again when there\'s another \'development\".
MO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At the risk of having a new asshole reamed by many
> of the posters here because in their eyes I\'m just
> a \"lucky asshole bugler\", I\'m going out on a limb
> here to offer my observations ( I do get paid to
> observe, so I\'m confident that I know my
> observations are accurate) and hope you will be
> patient enough to indulge me here:
>
> Chuck: I used to have a real problem with anger
> and depression. I got help and got \"cured\",
> although many people choose to put me \"in a box\"
> and refuse to believe it. That\'s a long story and
> I won\'t go into the details, but there was one
> time before I got help that my younger brother
> said to me after I was complaining about a family
> matter: \"You know, we know everything you say is
> right, but your delivery sucks! And therefore we
> ignore you.\"
>
> I know Todd well enough to say hello. He knows who
> I am and we used to watch races together when he
> worked for Lukas. He\'s not a friend, just an
> acquaintance. But we have a mutual respect for each
> other. He has no problem walking up to me (unlike
> his boss) and shaking my hand.
>
> I personally do not believe he\'s a cheater, just a
> great student and has learned from mistakes of his
> teachers. But I do believe that there is so much
> cheating going on that I choose not to put my $
> through the windows any more as a professional
> handicapper (with lifetime profit in the tens of
> thousands of dollars still intact).
>
> I do think some of the personal attacks against
> Chuck are warrented because of his delivery, but I
> also look at those same people attacking Chuck and
> their posts and can\'t help but think they are
> sadly brainwashed into believing that Chuck\'s
> accusations are impossible.
http://www.jardinefoods.com/
The secret is that Todd Pletcher rubs a little of these products on the inside glutleal.
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MO, when it comes to observations, there is no one
> better at them than a handicapper.I\'LL TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT The problem is
> gamblers are not very good at observations and
> there\'s the rub. AGREED
>
> Its not my delivery that is the problem. IT IS TOO I\'m
> throwing it over the plate, but there\'s too much
> velocity and movement for many of the batters in
> this park to even see the pill.YOU ASSUME TOO MUCH. MANY ARE DOUBLE A PLAYERS AND HAVEN\'T GOT A PRAYER OF MAKING CONTACT let alone make
> contact.
>
> I\'m sure Plech is a nice guy. I\'m sure he wouldn\'t
> intentionally club a baby seal or win knowing his
> horse had to die. I honestly believe that losing
> the horses bothers him. In his comments from the
> die off, you can read between the lines and
> understand he was struggling with experimenting on
> them. I\'m also certain he ingratiates himself
> easily. But, you\'re not saying a nice guy can\'t be
> as money motivated and self interested as the next
> check kiter, bank robber or axe murderer are you? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I\'M STILL A NATIVE NYer AND THEREFORE TRUST NO ONE!!!! THAT\'S WHY I DON\'T BET!!!! BESIDES, TAP GOES OFF AT 3-5 often. WHERE\"S THE VALUE??? YOU KNOW HE\'s GONNA WIN, SO WHY NOT PASS THE RACE, OR BETTER YET, DON\'T PUT $ THROUGHT THE WINDOWS AT ALL ANYMORE??? ARE YOU ADDICTED??? THEN GET HELP. ARE YOU A FOOL? THEN, NOT MY PROBLEM!!!!!
>
>
> MO, a fair percentage of the posters here are pari
> mutual fodder. They don\'t have any significance
> other than adding to the pools. THERE\'s YOUR LOUSY DELIVERY AGAIN!!!! Among them you\'ll
> find trainer bettors and those type cash often
> enough on Plech that they consider challenging him
> blasphemy. Then there\'s the group of guys that
> include you. Folks without ego that are civil to
> all. I\'m not in your league there, but if you note
> I only let those have it that are rude and have
> the truth coming to them on ignorance. I DEAL WITH THIS EVERYDAY. THICK HEADS CANNOT BE PENTRATED!!!! WHY WASTE THE ENERGY ON THEM IN CONVENTIONAL WAYS??
>
> But MO its within Your power. MY PROBLEM IS THAT NO ONE TAKES ME SERIOUSLY. IT\'S TOO EASY TO WRITE ME OFF AS A LUCKY ASSHOLE BUGLER. NO BODY TAKES MY SUCCESSOR AS A SERIOUS HANDICAPPER, AND RIGHTLY SO BECAUSE HE HASN\'T GOT A CLUE ABOUT HANDICAPPING. AND HE FREELY ADMITS IT. HE\'s CONTENT TO BE A LAUGHING STOCK, AND THUS THE NY BRED HORSES NAMED IN HIS HONOR. AND SO IF I APPROACH TAP WITH YOUR SUGGESTION, I WOULD LIKELY BE PUT IN THE SAME CLASS, AND THAT WOULD BE INACCURATE,AND UNFAIR TO ME - TO SAY THE LEAST If you shake hands
> with Plech now and then ask him. Break into it
> with psychology. Tell him you just read an
> interesting article on Allday and that you
> understand he works for Plech, then slide into
> asking when Allday first began treating horses for
> him.
>
> You\'ll find its right at the time I\'ve indicated.
>
> I\'ll drop the topic for the time being. Those that
> can contribute now understand how. We\'ll pick it
> up again when there\'s another \'development\".
>
>
>
> MO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > At the risk of having a new asshole reamed by
> many
> > of the posters here because in their eyes I\'m
> just
> > a \"lucky asshole bugler\", I\'m going out on a
> limb
> > here to offer my observations ( I do get paid
> to
> > observe, so I\'m confident that I know my
> > observations are accurate) and hope you will be
> > patient enough to indulge me here:
> >
> > Chuck: I used to have a real problem with anger
> > and depression. I got help and got \"cured\",
> > although many people choose to put me \"in a
> box\"
> > and refuse to believe it. That\'s a long story
> and
> > I won\'t go into the details, but there was one
> > time before I got help that my younger brother
> > said to me after I was complaining about a
> family
> > matter: \"You know, we know everything you say
> is
> > right, but your delivery sucks! And therefore
> we
> > ignore you.\"
> >
> > I know Todd well enough to say hello. He knows
> who
> > I am and we used to watch races together when
> he
> > worked for Lukas. He\'s not a friend, just an
> > acquaintance. But we have a mutual respect for
> each
> > other. He has no problem walking up to me
> (unlike
> > his boss) and shaking my hand.
> >
> > I personally do not believe he\'s a cheater, just
> a
> > great student and has learned from mistakes of
> his
> > teachers. But I do believe that there is so
> much
> > cheating going on that I choose not to put my $
> > through the windows any more as a professional
> > handicapper (with lifetime profit in the tens
> of
> > thousands of dollars still intact).
> >
> > I do think some of the personal attacks against
> > Chuck are warrented because of his delivery, but
> I
> > also look at those same people attacking Chuck
> and
> > their posts and can\'t help but think they are
> > sadly brainwashed into believing that Chuck\'s
> > accusations are impossible.
I hope you didn\'t have to copy that word for word then Richie.
Cut and Paste works on both Text and the Address Bar at the top of each Web Page.
Left Click on the desired Target and drag the cursor over the desired Text or Address. When High-lit, Right Click, and then select the \"Copy\" prompt. Navigate to the site of your response and Right Click again, this time selecting \"Paste\". Wa La, easier than beating a dishonest trainer! (Next lesson I\'ll show you how to locate a two word phrase in a 10,000 word document with the couple clicks of the mouse)
I cut, pasted and browsed your colic reference into a \"google search\" and came up with this:
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10072
Its possible Left Bank did colic at 2 I suppose, but the assertion is naked (And they give me grief here) It also surprising that they don\'t mention Left Bank\'s demise from \"colic\". Maybe being Vets they were smart enough to know not to suggest that.
The other factor is perhaps Left Bank was especially susceptible to intestine trouble when his system was \"off\".
Regardless the three undiagnosed illnesses in six days followed on the heels of recent wins in Graded Stakes (An allowance for Warners) all acknowledged \"Top Level\" performers, one a previous short winded type on a career top, track record, at a novel distance, without another horse in the Plech barn or Spa in general coming down with the afflictions is enough in combination to create a rebutable presumption that the barn did something to both sicken those horses and enable them to run exceedingly fast/well scant days prior. A very interesting combination. Now a rebutable presumption shifts the burden of proof. It is now up to the naysayers and apologists to offer evidence to prove that the barn was not responsible for the death of said horses.
Show us your evidence
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck:
>
> I am not computer literate enough to link articles
> or websites to the TG board,
> but the following comes from \"the horse.com (Your
> Guide to Equine Health Care)\".
> Article 10072, dated July 28, 2007, authored by
> Cristy West, contains the
> following:
>
> \"The first six months after colic surgery is the
> critical period, and if you
> get to one year after surgery, you can relax a
> little,\" Freeman
> said. \"People think that a horse after colic
> surgery is finished, but thats not
> true. We know that many of these horses go back to
> very top level performance.
> For example, Left Bank was a thoroughbred who
> colicked as a two year old and
> had some small intestine removed. He raced from
> two to five years old and had
> 24 starts and 14 wins...\"
>
> The Dr. Freeman who is quoted is a veterinarian on
> the faculty of the
> University of Florida.
>
> Your approach, and your writing style, are such
> that the occasional inclusion of
> some facts would do nothing to dilute your posts
> or soften their impact.
Frank Passero was using Red Hot Chili Pepper in that \"area\" at GP 10+ years or so ago when he won many races, better than the Pletch stuff, imo.
Chuckles,
The problem is that you present your OPINIONS and weak evidence against Pletcher as if they offer irrefutable proof that the rest of us are too dumb to understand. You also seem to obsess over him. IMO, most people would probably argue that there are many better targets for attack among the leading trainers.
We are allowed to have suspicions and sometimes we even know someone is guilty without being able to prove it. However, there are some very logical legal explanations for TP\'s training success and for the performances of many of the horses you have complained about. IMHO, that much is so clear, it gets hard to swallow your attitude on this.
I think if you presented your evidence as reasons for suspicion and listened carefully to the counter arguments, we wouldn\'t have to debate this endlessly and no one would have a problem with your view.
I promised to knock off the dissertation for awhile and I\'m breaking that pledge as if it was a banned substance regulation.
I don\'t follow California at all now, so I have no idea what trainer you\'re referring to. I\'m assuming you\'re implying he\'s skipping the day\'s card out of fear of enhanced oversight, but even then I\'m not sure. My limited knowledge of Del Mar is that there\'s scores of horse-folk up in arms at the reconfigured track that are ready to bolt. Maybe the suggested trainer is one of them?
If you want to discuss proof of doping in terms of performance figures thats science. Plech\'s horses began earning unreal figures in 2002 and in the two years prior Plech was on a remarkable overall improvement curve. The figures provide strong evidence, but the evidentiary volume against Plech is even stronger. I could tell you Left Bank popped 2 record fast efforts before he died, but thats me, maybe Tgraph will let you see Left Bank\'s sheet in historical context.
One of the key factors of course was Allday\'s involvement with the trainers that were popping Negative 3 and faster: Plech, Frankel, Dutrow. The other guy that was/is firing huge numbers is Zito, but to this point I haven\'t identified those two together.
I consider post career breeding results the poorest indicator of doping. However, I do factor premature retirement and premature death significantly.
I\'m actually amazed at the skepticism that exists. Its a double edged issue. Its a negative for a near term resolution on doping, but its a positive indicator regarding the health of the pari mutual pool. (MO would call that last line bad delivery...lol)
marcus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CtC2 - IMO Even if some of what your saying is
> remotely plausible - it still doesn\'t prove
> anything . Personally , I feel that you might
> strengthen your argument by discussing the
> \"numbers\" and \"progeny\" of these horses when
> addressing performance , breeding or health issues
> . Sunday at DMR there is a certain trainer
> with-out a single horse entered on the card -
> coincidental ? circumstantial ? It seems to
> marginally contradict your theory ...
>> If you want to discuss proof of doping in terms of performance figures thats science.
You pretty much ignore science. You don\'t have the knowledge base to go beyond your sheet figure arguments regarding what specific type of \"doping\" could account for such figures.
Some of us do, and thus can see the baselessness in most of your contentions. You have repeatedly demonstrated on this list that you have little to no real comprehension of horse health, veterinary medicine, nor of pharmacology.
You are simply another faceless member of the masses, who believes there is a little syringe containing a magical substance called, \"move up juice\"; and who trots out it\'s use to explain anything you cannot validate within your context of comprehension.
You\'re behind the curveball again fkach, the burden of proof has now legally shifted to you. Call it res ipsa loquitur if you wish.
Its now up to you and the other naysayers to offer proof that Plech and/or his stable did not do something to kill his horses in August of 2002. I don\'t think you understand that yet.
See you at the windows.
fkach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles,
>
> The problem is that you present your OPINIONS and
> weak evidence against Pletcher as if they offer
> irrefutable proof that the rest of us are too dumb
> to understand. You also seem to obsess over him.
> IMO, most people would probably argue that there
> are many better targets for attack among the
> leading trainers.
>
> We are allowed to have suspicions and sometimes we
> even know someone is guilty without being able to
> prove it. However, there are some very logical
> legal explanations for TP\'s training success and
> for the performances of many of the horses you
> have complained about. IMHO, that much is so
> clear, it gets hard to swallow your attitude on
> this.
>
> I think if you presented your evidence as reasons
> for suspicion and listened carefully to the
> counter arguments, we wouldn\'t have to debate this
> endlessly and no one would have a problem with
> your view.
Using your theory Phil Jackson also used \"something\" while winning all those championships. Lets look at the proof. The Bulls had Michael, Scottie and the rest of the guys but couldn\'t get over the hump. Along comes Mr. Jackson and all of a sudden they win six rings. Must have used the stuff. This is not an isolated incident mind you as he pulled the same thing in Los Angeles. Shaq and Kobe also couldn\'t get over the hump. Enter Mr. Jackson and whatever his magic potion is, and what do you know, three more rings.
Something needs to be done!
I just heard Tiger Woods was sited in the back of a white Mercedes chatting with Pletcher and Jackson. Also, the source who will remain nameless said Barry Sanders early retirement was due to effects of the \"stuff\". Heck, no one runs like without \"something\"...Hmmmm, the more you think about it...
I\'m with you Chuckles! Fire up the wagon, I\'m on board!
In what country is someone guilty because of the opinions of some anonymous horseplayer whose highly subjective interpretations of race results and horse performances is the primary evidence?
I happen to be one of your few fans because you are so willing to go against the grain of dominant opinion here, but you are losing me on this one.
I remember Left Bank and his huge move forward (that entire period), but I would have to revisit the story to form a strong opinion. I don\'t remember many of the details of the races that contributed to his figures. A single TG Sheet wouldn\'t cut it for me.
However, I am very familiar with Lawyer Ron and think it\'s preposterous for anyone to \"leap\" to the conclusion that illegal drugs account for his recent improvement. To me, anyone with more than casual understanding of this game should be able to appreciate that LR was rank on a fairly consistent basis in his races last year - even when he was beating weaker. That problem has obviously been corrected and allowed him to improve. Furthermore Barry has given us a very good reason for why the horse was behaving that way last year. It was a motivation in his recommendation to purchase the horse. Lastly, do you really find it shocking that a 4YO that had a few nice races as a 3YO is suddenly running faster at 4? It\'s practically the norm!
Pointing to weak circumstantial evidence is not proof. No one here is saying that TP never cheated. They are saying there are very good reasons he could be having this success without cheating. So the burden is on people like you.
Come on ronwar you can\'t be that thick man.
Phil Jackson did it with the Nicks, the Lakers and the Bulls. He couldn\'t dope that many players and keep it quiet. Besides how many of his teammates dropped dead on the parquet floor during the 7th game?
Plech on the other hand can only really win with Allday. But even that aint a conspiracy viceroy.
Listen man, do you even know what a conspiracy is? A conspiracy is an inchoate crime. Look it up, not conspiracy dude, but inchoate, you basketball jonesin knucklehead. You might learn somethin.
Yeah what Plech and Allday got going ain\'t a conspiracy jones, its a fait accompli. Thats French dude. You could look it up.
Time for another cold one and some T.V. and a nice Swanson T.V. dinner. Damn, a gamblers life for me.
Can you really bet on Golf?
ronwar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Using your theory Phil Jackson also used
> \"something\" while winning all those championships.
> Lets look at the proof. The Bulls had Michael,
> Scottie and the rest of the guys but couldn\'t get
> over the hump. Along comes Mr. Jackson and all of
> a sudden they win six rings. Must have used the
> stuff. This is not an isolated incident mind you
> as he pulled the same thing in Los Angeles. Shaq
> and Kobe also couldn\'t get over the hump. Enter
> Mr. Jackson and whatever his magic potion is, and
> what do you know, three more rings.
>
> Something needs to be done!
>
> I just heard Tiger Woods was sited in the back of
> a white Mercedes chatting with Pletcher and
> Jackson. Also, the source who will remain nameless
> said Barry Sanders early retirement was due to
> effects of the \"stuff\". Heck, no one runs like
> without \"something\"...Hmmmm, the more you think
> about it...
>
> I\'m with you Chuckles! Fire up the wagon, I\'m on
> board!
Chuckles, don\'t waste your breath on him. Most of these characters have no sense of the sport to begin with. This one is framing his \'position\',if you want to dignify it with that term, with a completely unrelated comparison.
You might ask him to comment on the crooked referee who was outed...or six decades of crooked players shaving points in college games. That would be more relevant to what we have been commenting on in horseracing.