The SmellMar Polytrack mess continues to benefit East Coast dirt tracks. As someone who has been a consistent critic of BB I want to say this is the smartest move you have made in years.
http://www.drf.com/news/article/87288.html
Also let me set the record straight. I am not a frustrated gambler who has been losing on the SmellMar Polytrack. The reason is I have not made a bet. The SmellMar Two Year Old races that used to showcase the stars of tomorrow are almost non-events anymore.
Zayat has $4M sunk into a dirt-horse-first with the idea of winning Triple Crown races or similar Preps. Run this horse one-time on the SmellMar Poly and this investment may quickly look worthless.
Cal-Bred Stallions like Smokester are almost about to be pensioned as being worthless and are being replaced by sires such as King Cugat and Glok. No wonder horses such as Gun Salute and Shakespear are being brought back from retirement, this is like the Senior Tour.
They have a second life.
The total lack of testing and thought put into the implementation of Polytrack the best thing to have ever happened to CD, Gulfstream, Oaklawn and New York Racing. The trickle down effect to current stallions and prospective owners is massive. A 3M Lab idiot now controls the game not someone who understands horses, training and racing.
On a final note. Bob Baffert enjoy your day in the Saratoga sun on Hall-of-Fame Day as Silver Charm goes in. This was the best training job of your career and you deserve it as much he does.
I know because I guaranteed it.
Silver Charm
I think this kind of thing was inevitable.
Personally, I don\'t have a problem with the addition of some artificial surfaces where the weather and/or safety issues are extreme enough to warrant some kind of action. I think this move in CA was idiotic though. If safety was an issue, they should have tried adding sand and a few other things before eliminating dirt racing from CA.
As far as I\'m concerned, CA racing is totally irrelevant except on turf.
I don\'t care who wins the SA Handicap, Pacific Classic, SA Derby etc... anymore. All of those perforamances have to be taken with grain of salt when it comes to the Derby, Breeder\'s Cup, Eclipse Award considerations for dirt etc...
If you have a barn full of expensive horses bred for speed on dirt, you\'d have to be a maniac to stay in California. IF NYRA (or whoever eventually) was smart, they would be rolling out the red carpet for the all the trainers and owners of high quality CA dirt stock to come east.
fkach Wrote:
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> I don\'t care who wins the SA Handicap, Pacific
> Classic, SA Derby etc... anymore. All of those
> perforamances have to be taken with grain of salt
> when it comes to the Derby, Breeder\'s Cup, Eclipse
> Award considerations for dirt etc...
the \'08 BC will be run on synth at SA, then all dirt races will have to be taken with a grain of salt.
this synth experiment, which has been an unqualified success so far, is going to run into major problems in the not so distant future. they have taken it way too far.
>the \'08 BC will be run on synth at SA, then all dirt races will have to be taken with a grain of salt. <
I see that as a monumental problem.
My betting action is going to be cut very sharply. I don\'t bet serious money in situations where I don\'t understand the abilities of the horses on the surface well. I realize I\'m a tight player, but there has to be at least some other serious bettors out there with similarly prudent tendencies.
The discussions about the Eclipse Awards that year are going to be comical.
I can\'t wait to see how they try to evaluate the breeding values considering there\'s no way to know if this trend is going to continue, stay at this level, or be reduced (not to mention that it appears that all the artificial surfaces are not even the same).
I\'d be more apt to vote for the winner of the Classic as Best Turfer than Best Older Dirt Horse etc.... ;-)
What problems do you see down the line?
fkach Wrote:
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> >the \'08 BC will be run on synth at SA, then all
> dirt races will have to be taken with a grain of
> salt. <
>
> I see that as a monumental problem.
>
> My betting action is going to be cut very sharply.
> I don\'t bet serious money in situations where I
> don\'t understand the abilities of the horses on
> the surface well. I realize I\'m a tight player,
> but there has to be at least some other serious
> bettors out there with similarly prudent
> tendencies.
>
> The discussions about the Eclipse Awards that year
> are going to be comical.
>
> I can\'t wait to see how they try to evaluate the
> breeding values considering there\'s no way to know
> if this is trend is going to continue, stay at
> this level, or be reduced (not to mention that it
> appears that all the artificial surfaces are not
> even the same).
>
> I\'d be more apt to vote for the winner of the
> Classic as Best Turfer than Best Older Dirt Horse
> etc.... ;-)
>
> What problems do you see down the line?
racing is a global business. when we hold a \"world championship\" for dirt horses on a synthetic surface, the best dirt horses in the world will not be anywhere near our continent.
Michael please elaborate on what you meant by successful experiment in your previous post.
Successful relative to what. These synthetic surfaces whether it is Keeneland or SmellMar apprear to be a different as night and day. Runners who prefer grass have a big advantage over classic dirt runners.
I agree with what you say about next years BC at SA. If you have an outstanding dirt runner I would not be going any where near the place. The horses at SmellMar are running so slow the racing looks like a Friday night Card in the middle of February at Penn National.
A one paced plodding style. Horses wobbling all over the track down the stretch. I got ten times the buzz watching the Hambletonian Card at the Meadowlands yesterday. When SmellMar came on I went to the grocery.
When SmellMar Track Mgmt says they do not care about fixing the racing surface then why I should I care about their racing.
Silver Charm Wrote:
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> Michael please elaborate on what you meant by
> successful experiment in your previous post.
>
> Successful relative to what. These synthetic
> surfaces whether it is Keeneland or SmellMar
> apprear to be a different as night and day.
> Runners who prefer grass have a big advantage over
> classic dirt runners.
>
> I agree with what you say about next years BC at
> SA. If you have an outstanding dirt runner I would
> not be going any where near the place. The horses
> at SmellMar are running so slow the racing looks
> like a Friday night Card in the middle of February
> at Penn National.
>
> A one paced plodding style. Horses wobbling all
> over the track down the stretch. I got ten times
> the buzz watching the Hambletonian Card at the
> Meadowlands yesterday. When SmellMar came on I
> went to the grocery.
>
> When SmellMar Track Mgmt says they do not care
> about fixing the racing surface then why I should
> I care about their racing.
Silver,
- bigger fields
- better fields
- no rain offs
- handle up
- less breakdowns
it does not matter if a small minority does not like synth racing. what matters are the overall numbers. if they had stopped after Kee, AP, and Hol, I think things would have worked out just fine. but now they have given the Cal horsemen no choice, and in the \'08 BC, they will give the bettors no choice.
not good.
>- bigger fields
- better fields
- no rain offs
- handle up
- less breakdowns <
CA really doesn\'t have any weather issues. To a large extent, all of these pluses are related to the decline of breakdowns and injuries.
The tracks used to be like paved highways. IMO they should have tried deeper chushions, extra sand etc... before destroying dirt racing in the state. I\'ll cut them some slack and admit that mandating drug free racing instead of artificial surfaces as part of the change wouldn\'t have gotten off the ground.
They should have put Poly/Cushion on one of the 2nd tier tracks and experimented with the surfaces at a couple of others. That way they would have had multiple models and results to look at. Even if this turns out to be the greatest move in the history of racing, it was idiotic to make such an extreme move in such an important market with so many Grade 1 dirt races without a full understanding of both the implictions and ALTERNATIVES. It\'s so idiotic it smells like someone is getting paid off.
Lets take these one-by-one.
- bigger fields: there is lot of try it and see if we it like going on now. we will see over the long haul as several find it is obvious they do not like it.
- better fields: have yet to see a Poly field that resembled the Met or Whitney and when they can not break 1:40 for a mile I doubt I ever will.
- no rain offs: did not realize there were rain-offs on dirt tracks. put a third surface in at tracks and when the rain-offs come move the turf races to the poly.
- handle up: where and whoose.
- less breakdowns: have vet bills gone down also since the surface is supposed to be so much easier on the horse.
I just read where Ted Condren is moving his base to SmellMar. His riding style at Penn National fits the track there perfectly.
fkach,
totally agree with you.
\"I am totally incompetent\", does\'nt sound like a good enough excuse from what I am watching at SmellMar.
Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lets take these one-by-one.
>
> - bigger fields: there is lot of try it and see if
> we it like going on now. we will see over the long
> haul as several find it is obvious they do not
> like it.
>
> - better fields: have yet to see a Poly field that
> resembled the Met or Whitney and when they can not
> break 1:40 for a mile I doubt I ever will.
>
> - no rain offs: did not realize there were
> rain-offs on dirt tracks. put a third surface in
> at tracks and when the rain-offs come move the
> turf races to the poly.
>
> - handle up: where and whoose.
>
> - less breakdowns: have vet bills gone down also
> since the surface is supposed to be so much easier
> on the horse.
>
> I just read where Ted Condren is moving his base
> to SmellMar. His riding style at Penn National
> fits the track there perfectly.
one by one does not require hyphens.
every point I made is valid. I have no idea what you just typed in.
synth racing was just fine until they took it past Hol, AP, and Kee. I don\'t think we disagree all that much.
You can make a case that Keeneland needed some work, but as far as I\'m concerned the quality of dirt racing there is (was?) too high and important to screw around with artificial surfaces YET.
Silvercharm
Dirt surfaces are not the same either track to track.
Each Poly uses locally sourced sand. It would be cost prohibitive to ship sand across the country in the quantities they need to make Poly. I know lots about the subject as it is part of my real life business. (Silica)
NC Tony
I will repeat my suggestion for NYRA: Replace the inner tube at Aqueduct with
a poly- style synthetic surface; end result-- one dirt track, one turf course,
one synthetic surface.
Add a synthetic surface at Belmont, but do not shut down the big sandy dirt
track.
Give horsemen and horseplayers what they want-- variety.
California\'s embrace of poly was mandated by a lack of expertise on the part of
track superintendents, Cal trainers\' general adherence to the strategy of
working their runners far and fast between races, leading to the inevitable
breakdowns.
IMO there should be no BC events run on synthetic after 2008 unless BC sets up a
series of races for synthetic runners in addition to the existing races, such
as the Breeder\'s Cup Synthetic Sprint Sponsored by Sealy Posturepedic.(Sealy
will be the next big producer of synthetic surfaces after it is found that the
sand and silica is too unforgiving for this generation of fragile runners).
I think the BC was awarded to SA BEFORE they decided to go synthetic, no?
I think I\'ve read Richiebee argue at least twice for installing this charade in New York. Sure why not? Kill off New York Racing entirely and obviate any need for determining the next licensee.
The California Horse racing Board (CHRB) one day out of thin air mandated that All tracks in California would convert to Polynonsense. Bay Meadows has a meet ending in the fall and likewise will be required to convert or cease operation. I\'m not sure what the status of Golden Gate Fields is. The decision was capricious, arbitrary and dictatorial. I think Dubya Bush relatives must populate the CHRB. What if they decided beer was good for horses? Or racing on any surface was bad for them? What if they decided expensive Vet Clinic visits was what they really needed? \"All horses must see Dr. Steve Allday and then Dr. Barbaro Richardson after Allday breaks them down?\" The day the CHRB decided that they would decide how business was conducted in California is the day that horse racing died in that State.
Who will wager upon the Breeders Cup? Who wagers there now? The quality of racing in California is diminishing fast with the experiment.
Graft? There may have been, but the results are criminal enough.
fkach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >- bigger fields
> - better fields
> - no rain offs
> - handle up
> - less breakdowns <
>
> CA really doesn\'t have any weather issues. To a
> large extent, all of these pluses are related to
> the decline of breakdowns and injuries.
>
> The tracks used to be like paved highways. IMO
> they should have tried deeper chushions, extra
> sand etc... before destroying dirt racing in the
> state. I\'ll cut them some slack and admit that
> mandating drug free racing instead of artificial
> surfaces as part of the change wouldn\'t have
> gotten off the ground.
>
> They should have put Poly/Cushion on one of the
> 2nd tier tracks and experimented with the surfaces
> at a couple of others. That way they would have
> had multiple models and results to look at. Even
> if this turns out to be the greatest move in the
> history of racing, it was idiotic to make such an
> extreme move in such an important market with so
> many Grade 1 dirt races without a full
> understanding of both the implictions and
> ALTERNATIVES. It\'s so idiotic it smells like
> someone is getting paid off.
Chuck:
Some would say that NYRA had the first true synthetic surface-- the winterized
IDT aka the \"Inner Tube\".
I think having a synthetic surface and a conventional dirt surface at the same
facility would make easier the comparison/contrast of racing on the 2 surfaces
and thus would have some scientific value; NYRA is one of the only places where
this could be done.
Traditional dirt racing has already fallen victim, to an extent, to a Racing
office/horse population which seems to only be able to fill turf races; dirt
racing, especially at Belmont, is already becoming a novelty, the way turf
racing used to be.
No....it was done early this year as CD was lamented for 2008.
NC Tony
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
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> I\'m not sure what the status of Golden Gate Fields
> is.
Golden Gate Fields is installing a Tapeta surface, the same one used by Dickinson at his training facility. It is currently used on several training tracks. GGF will be the first track in the world to have Tapeta installed for regular racing.
http://www.goldengatefields.com/NewsEvents/FeatureStories/Details/GGF.htm
Bee,
There was a plan to investigate a synthetic inner track at the Big A or a synthetic training track somewhere in NY.The idioticians in Albany are now in the process of turning the Aqueduct into a Stronach thing or something driven by the value of the property to the state. I hear NYRA will concede ownership rights to the tracks and land if they get renewed. There is lots of wheeling and dealing with lots of powerful politicians trying to protect their constituents interest.
Not particularly good news for Poly-Quackers, but the Del Mar fiasco has slowed the tide on conversion to synthetic, at least in NY.You would be surprised to hear several NY Hall of Fame Trainers say that they would welcome synthetic training surfaces but not for racing.NYRA is sending their people to all of the seminars around the country re synthetics and it at least seems that they will fully investigate thoroughly before moving. It it also noteworthy that there is much being investigated by the breeding industry since synthetics will change that industry rather dramatically.
Would have thought California would have investigated more thoroughly before knee jerk reacting on synthetics.
Mike
Wasn\'t Bay Meadows already given an exemption? Couldn\'t they be given another if they decided they wanted to remain in business?
The idea that Del Mar, of all places, needs an artificial surface is ludicrous. It has yet to be proven that artificial surfaces will prevent breakdowns. This is what the proponents hang their hats on in the face of something that is looking more and more like a fiasco. All of a sudden they\'re all animal lovers.
Tracks rushed headlong into this as if it were a given that this was THE solution. Del Mar and Keeneland. which have a reputation as first rate tracks to preserve, will insist that this is okay and everybody likes it right up until the day they make the announcement they\'re taking it out.
Bally Ache Wrote:
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> Wasn\'t Bay Meadows already given an exemption?
> Couldn\'t they be given another if they decided
> they wanted to remain in business?
Kinda... sorta...
http://www.sacbee.com/362/story/231811.html
NC Tony, I am not going to argue over Silica if you know something or it sounds like quite a bit about it.
What I am going to argue is why didn\'t they recognized the problems they are having with the SmellMar Racing surface when they did their studies. To counter any of these arguments or debates would SmellMar be willing to produce the results of those studies. If they have them?
That is my biggest beef. Did they research any of this before they voted Across the Board in Calif to require Polytrack at all Tracks. What kind of data was on the table or presented to them when they made the vote. That people who stand speed Cal-bred dirt sires will be put out of business or at least see a 20%-50% haircut in their stud fees. That horses who used to be able to run in 1:09 will now go in a one-paced 1:13 and the fans will loved it.
Even Trevor Denmans calls have become boring. A new low for Polytrack and racing in general for that matter..............
>You would be surprised to hear several NY Hall of Fame Trainers say that they would welcome synthetic training surfaces but not for racing.<
That\'s because this approach would actually make some sense until we know everything we need to know.
I don\'t see that much downside to training over the stuff and you could still get the potential upside of it being a safer surface and easier on the horses.
I have to say that I think all the Del Mar trash talking is a little much. Have you guys been betting at all? I have been doing pretty well there and think the track is playing real fair. I couldn\'t hit a race at Keeneland and still haven\'t hit a race using the sheets at Arlington...but for some reason Hollywood and Del Mar have been good to me. I agree California jumped the gun mandating synthetic surfaces...but when it comes to playing the game....I don\'t think Del Mar has been that bad....I actually like it better than the speed biased sheet of concrete that it used to be.
I sort of agree that this track seems to be a bit more formful than keeneland..
I\'m not a big better of Synthetics yet but i\'m trying to get it..
The three biggest things I have learned about Del Mar\'s Polytrack are:
-No matter what you do, do not play the speed unless you get a price and very loose on the lead..
-Horses cutting back in distance do well, probably because they don\'t get as tired as quick..
-Victor Espinoza, i hated him on the regular dirt surfaces but on Poly his style (off the pace and go 5 wide on the turn everytime) is perfect for Poly.
This is all stuff I have noticed. If anyone else has tips (besides not betting Polytrack), please let me know as I see there is a lot of money being paid out over there and want to get some of it.
With out being over cynical,IMO, Delmar is impossible.
One mans opinion. And a good one.
http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40099
Now if we can just get things to where it is fun to watch, fast and exciting and betable then even I will not be complaining.
And oh by the way the track will probably be able to stay in business.